German Shepherd dog

Those of you who have received your schedules for the 2 day show may have noticed the slip of paper inside re cameras and video cameras it reads

"IT IS THE POLICY OF THE HOSTING CLUB OF THE 2-DAY NATIONAL 2008 THAT NO FILMING OR PHOTOGRAPHY OF ANY KIND IS TO TAKE PLACE WITHIN THE PRECINCTS OF THE SHOWGROUND WITHOUT PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OR PERMISSION IN WRITING OF THE HOSTING CLUB, NAMELY THE GSD CLUB OF SCOTLAND. ALL OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHERS/VIDEO CAMERA PERSONS WILL WEAR BADGES TO THAT EFFECT."

This must be one of the most ridiculas policies I have come across in more than 20 years of exhibiting dogs. just wondered when this became policy and for what purpose ?. As Joyce points out most people have digital cameras myself included not only do we take photo's of our dogs  but as most of you know we like to party and normally get some great photo's of us all enjoying ourselves or should that be making a fool of ourselves. but if this policy is enforced there will be no such happy snaps this year. I don't think the committee who decided on this policy have given much thought to the implications this could have on exhibitors or spectators.

Linda B (Korzwin GSDs)

This is absolutely ridiculous, the 2 day show always attracts foreign visitors, it seems they will be unable to take photo's of the dogs. Maybe they will do a handbag search at the gate, lol, but hey what about those of us that have quality cameras on our mobile phones, will they confiscate our phones at the gate too!!!

Obviously a rule that has not been thought through by the committee, maybe there is a hidden agenda here.

I too agree with the statements above.

SURELY IT IS UP TO THE EXHIBITOR TO DECIDE WHO PHOTOGRAPHS THEIR DOGS!

The two day national is still a, if not the, premiere show in the UK, many still giving it preference to the UK Sieger.  Last year the official photographer sent me many pictures of our dogs, some good, some less good, but in all we had many many pictures - taken by our friends and breed colleagues alike.

And Linda B is right - what about the pictures of people just enjoying their weekend.

I have had some photographs I do not like and would prefer not to see on the internet published of my dogs, but the sentiments above are correct - the dogs are 'on show' and theres not much we can do about poorly taken pictures. However, the GSD Club of Scotland must surely see that they are WRONG in this decision and that shows are for the exhibitors and spectators - most definately not for a regimentary committee or officers.

One final question - WHO EXACTLY WILL BE ALLOWED TO TAKE PICTURES? And how, in light of the many excellent photographers available, was this decision reached?

I await a response from the club on this database ASAP.

Hi All

Never mind the slip of paper I havent even received a schedule but since hearing the above I dont need a schedule now as I won't be going. Never have I heard anything so ridiculous in my life, the end of the show scene is nearer than I thought. To reiterate what I wrote in an email to the BC Sec recently-

"Without doubt I have lived through the Best times for with the state of our show scene today I am glad to be nearing the End Zone rather than the Kick Off and walking away is made so much easier knowing there is little I am going to miss".

Just a thought however, if you all get your camera's out and start taking photo's of dogs and/or each other around the outside of the ring what do you really think they could do????  I would suggest ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!  They would not be able to take your camera's off you without Man Handling you, they could try to ban you from the show but with what grounds? What law or KC rule had you broken? And if you all stuck together would they really want the majority of their exhibitors walking out en-bloc? Doubt it! Certainly wouldnt do much for the validity of their show and shouldnt imagine the judges would be too impressed with their rings being empty due to absenteism, self inflicted by the decisions of a dictatorial, draconion committee.   

Regards

Sue B

The rule to stop people taking photos of their own dogs is silly, but perhaps GSD Club of Scotland want to stop photos being taken for commercial gain? Correct me if I am wrong, but the photos taken seemingly for free by Fardogart will eventually end up in a Year Book type of publication which will be forsale in competition with similar publications produced by GSDL and the Breed Council. The books author will profit from this venture.

 If this is the reason for the ban, then perhaps its not as silly as it first seems?

Zac

Zac

I dont know who, if anyone was profiting from this handbook

this is part of the e mail I received, re: advertising

Sorry to keep harping on, lol, but I was told to send a cheque payable to the GSD Club of Scotland by the end of April, is this now a non starter, is the handbook cancelled, if FARDOGART are not doing the photo's at the show, how can they publish the book???? It would be nice to have advised the advertisers what was going on.

Hi Zac,

Having being involved in both the aforementioned publications over the years let me tell you that producing a yearbook, especially one containing lots of coloured photo's is not a cheap process. It involves an investment of many thousands of pounds up front for the books to be produced before being available for sale, and I would advise any one individual contemplating such a venture to prepare for a very slow return on their investment. These type of publications can hardly be described as ever "Flying off the Shelf", not by any stretch of the imagination and now with such a diminishing show scene there is becoming an ever dwindling number of exhibitors left to sell anything to.

Anyhow, in the scheme of things what does any of this have to do with informing the ordinary exhibitor / spectator that they are forbidden to take photo's? The majority of photo's I have used over the years in my BC and GSDL handbooks have more often been those taken either by ourselves or our friends, than those taken by a professional photographer. In which case one could argue that advertisers would be less likely to advertise in the  BC or GSDL handbooks through lack of photo's.

The best photo's taken for me recently were by Zep (Mascani) at a show, with his own camera and sent to me via email free of charge, for which I will always be grateful. I was at Crufts all day surrounded by photographers but I did not get one single photo taken of my female or myself with my German friends or Zamp from anyone other than those taken by Lisa, her mum, her dad or myself, despite the presence of professional photographers in the ring. So if we hadnt been allowed to use our camera's I would have no personal memories captured ....Point Proven, methinks !!

Regards

Sue B

hi penny (mo) i dont think it is about them making money from a book or anything else its about telling exhibitors that they cannot photograph their own dogs at the show  why would taking pics of your dogs stop people from buying a book with photo's of the show i dont think it will but what it might do is stop a lot of people from going to the national because of this stupid rule after all a dog show is about the dogs and as exhibitors we are entitled to take pics of our dogs

jim h

Am i right in thinking then that only dogs that have booked a space can be is this book.

Or will class winners be in it?????

So you cant take a camera cause you havent booked a space in the book and they only want fardogart photos in the book.

There are a few people who take good photos at shows and if they hadnt bothered we wouldnt get to see half the dogs,they do it for the joy  and to share the photos with everybody else and get pleasure from seeing that photo printed in the magazine or even the new Gsd League web site.

Hear , Hear Xfactor !! Couldnt agree more. Sue B

Hi Smc ,

Who mentioned anything about the Naval Base been the reason? I would suggest this is just an excuse because if the venue is that security sensitive you can bet your bottom dollar they wouldnt have allowed a Dog Show on the premises in the first place. 

Whatever excuse will they think of next? The mind Boggles? lol

Regards

Sue B

Rather then me explain how this book was explained to me (by Lin), perhaps its author should speak for herself and assure everyone that no profit is ever intended. I could be wrong in my understanding that this years book is a pilot for future editions from which an income is intended to be made.

I am sure Urma DO make a profit, and theres nothing wrong in that. My point is that GSDL and Breed Council are also trying to make a profit from the photo books they produce. They're not likely to want to encourage competition are they?

Zac

Unfortunately i think most people on here have mis-understood this Video Camera & Camera statement issued with the 2 Day schedule.

After making a few phone calls, what i have gathered is that there is no ban on ANYONE taking photographs OUTSIDE THE RING. This rule only applies to Official photographers INSIDE THE RING. I understand this may not have been worded or explained correctly on this slip and has lead to all this confusion.

There ARE rules to this effect if anyone would like to look at RULE 32 in the SKC Schedule, this may help explain the situation regarding photography at Dog Shows.

In this day and age you now must understand about taking photographs at public events i.e. school plays, festivals or so on, these are there for many legal reasons. You also have to remember that this Event is being held on MOD property. So there may have been some stipulations by the MOD on taking photograph of certain parts of their property.

Remember that the kennel club rule on OUTSIDE ATTRACTION must be printed on schedules and be displayed at the Shows but 99% of the people on here don't adhere to this rule and i'm sure that the Committee of the GSD of Scotland are not that stupid enough to ban people from taking photographs, even confiscate cameras or to even think that this would happen is complete stupidity.

HI

I am lookin for some info regarding the two day show in scotland this july , where it is , dates , judge etc as i will be travelling from ireland and will need to book a hotel soon , any info will be much appreciated , thanks

No problem JJ - I am on a strict diet, so I will be "camera ready" for our exclusive.

I hope no one minds me writing but I have some inside knowledge of this book and want to add my tuppence for what it's worth. 

The initial concept of this book was to include the 2 day and the British Sieger.  Sadly, recently it came to pass that this would no longer include the 2 day show as a main feature.  This book is to include the first 3 in each class with a photograph, 3 gen pedigree and show critique.  I know 100% that right from the start this was to be a non profit making project from Fardogartfoto, despite the hundreds and possibly thousands of hours work that is required to get the book to it's final publication.  The advertising money is going towards reducing the cost of purchase to the exhibitors.  This totally unselfish act by Lin is to be applauded and I for one fully support her and this exciting project.  She has aleady put in many hours of time and effort to get this off the ground.  The book will be sponsored by Ardengrange and I know that if, and it's a big if, there is any profit outstanding then that will be donated to GSD Welfare.

Anyone who knows Lin, will know what a special person she is and that what she is doing for the breed is fantastic.  She travels the length and breadth of the country, including Ireland, at her own expense to provide exhibitors with top class photographs of their dogs, always free of charge as she does not wish to make a profit out of photographing the breed she loves.  If this project is a success and takes off, then in the future she may look to cover her costs but no more and to me that is wholly acceptable and right, given that this year it will cost a lot both in time and financially and believe me Lin does not have money to burn.  Any person wanting pics of their dogs at any show, only need approach Lin and ask her to take them and if at all possible she will and usually have them e-mailed to you within a day or so.

The initial e-mail re adverising went out to the people in Lins address book, but as Lin does not know everyone this did not include everyone but as the project has grown, there is still plenty of advertising space available and an advert is iminent to this effect and space will be sold on a first come first served basis.  My understanding is also that advertisers can use whatever photographs they wish in their adverts, and I certainly will in mine, as a mixure of photographers have taken good pics of my dogs.

I sincerely hope that this misunderstanding can be cleared up quickly and then we can get on with the job of making the 2 day the event it should be, a very special one for all involved with as many pictures as people wish to take.  I for one will be at the 2 day and hope to see you all there for a great Scottish show.

Unfortunately i think most people on here have mis-understood this Video Camera & Camera statement issued with the 2 Day schedule.

We have not misunderstood, please dont talk to us like idiots, it CLEARLY states in the schedule "within the precincts of the showground"  no mention of 'just in the ring'.

Comments regarding confiscating cameras etc were made tongue in cheek, I think the committee are back peddling, which is fine, just have the guts to say they have made a mistake. 

thank you very much

Carol, couldnt agree more and its noticeably not just the Committee who are back peddling.

Heather says Lin sent invites to all in her address book yet I did not receive one yet must be in her address book as she has sent photo's to me before, this appears to be backed up by Xfactor (Karen of Tramella) as surely they must have had their dogs photographed before or at least their Kennel and email address should be widely known.

Also Penny (Mo Lakin) told us she just missed out on an advertising space and had put herself on the waiting list in the hope some advertiser cancelled, though Heather now reports there is still plenty of space.  I have nothing against Lin, indeed I was one ot those who championed her in the beginning arranging for her to be 'Inside' the ring at West Yorks Championship Show, THE FIRST Breed Club Show I believe to organise this for Lin, OUTSIDE of SCOTLAND (though I am prepared to stand corrected) I certainly know Terry Hannan was unaware of her prior to me arranging this, hence the reason Terry knew enough about her to go out of his way to get permission for Lin to be in the ring at Crufts. 

I just do not like underhandedness, never have, never will and as for you David Payne, I am surprised with all your democracy background that you come out championing something that on the surface appeared elitist, one can only assume that you were one of those original 'Exclusively Selected Advertisers'.

What ever happened to just telling the TRUTH? It's getting so some of us can't see the crap for the B***Sh**. If you wanted Exclusive Advertisers just say so, its your darn book so admit it, sad to say this breed is now riddled with too much arse licking with a scarsity of balls !!

Regards

Sue B

All,

I have to mention that I have seen the original email which was sent from Lin at Fardogart on the 24/11/2007, I can also see Sue B's email address on said email aswell as Mo Lakin and many many others.  My own email identified this particular email as junk mail and as a result the email itself went straight into my delete basket.  I was fortunate enough to have spoken to Lin the same day (on a seperate matter) and she mentioned the email, at which point I checked my junk mail folder and located it.  Perhaps there has been an issue with some other folks email addresses doing the same thing as mine. 

Lin very much wants to promote the breed through her Free of Charge photography, it is her love for the breed and passion for Photography which makes her photo's so good.

I am sure there are very good reasons why you have not heard much from Lin with regards to the current position and this is because it has only just been resolved.   I am sure she will update everyone in the not to distant future on the forthcoming book.

The fact remains that we all attend dog shows for our own enjoyment, we all take photo's whether inside or outside the ring or at the night time event during the 2 days.  The fact is that this enjoyment has been taken away by the rules which are being imposed unfairly in my opinion.  I took numerous photo's at the Irish 2 day last year for my own personal enjoyment, the ones which were good I emailed on to the kennel who owned the dog I may have snapped and I can say that I am proud that some of them have used them on their website.

I am aware that there was mention of the MOD imposing the rules due to securtiy breaches and this was confirmed by telephone to my mum when she enquired to one of the committee.  I find it difficult to understand why the MOD would impose such a rule given that in my personal experience I have and many of my Car Club friends been invited in to RAF Leuchars whilst the base was operational where we took photo's of our cars in very close proximity to the fighter jets etc...  Perhaps if this is the case the MOD can confirm by letter to the committee which can can be shared with the exhibitors/spectators.  I for one would love to continue my trend at the 2 day national and snap away at the dogs inside and outside the ring.

Mandy

Hundark Gsd's

Zac you also write

"The show is quite within its rights to restrict photography within the ring and to appoint their own photographer. The official photographer has served the organisers very well in the past, so what a kick in the teeth if they were to suddenly drop him in favour of a commercial venture!"

Yes, you are absolutely right in your first sentence, however the insert in the catalogue is restricting this within the entire showground.  As for the official photographer, well until very recently this was Lin as you will very well know  so in my opinion, not so much a kick in the teeth eh? I just hope that whoever it is, won't be looking to profit and be charging money for photographs as that would be a travesty, particularly as the club have the offer of Lin, who would not charge anyone for her photographs.  Which do you think the exhibitors would prefer????????? I know which I would

Now can we please get back to the thread and look forward from here with positive and constructive comments, rather than negative and divisive ones which is not helping the GSD Club of Scotland who we fully support as a Scottish club and want to see put on a successful Scottish show to remember.

This statement has just been made by the GSD of Scotland

OFFICIAL STATEMENT BY THE OFFICIALS & COMMITTEE OF THE GSD CLUB OF SCOTLAND (HOSTS OF THE 2-DAY NATIONAL 2008)

On the issue of Photography & Video Cameras the Hosting Club would like to make the situation crystal clear to all and now makes the following statement:-

ONLY THE OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHERS OR VIDEO CAMERAMEN WHO HAVE THE PERMISSION IN WRITING OF THE HOSTING CLUB WILL BE ALLOWED TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS INSIDE THE SHOW RINGS (2) at the above Event.  OTHERWISE CAMERAS AND VIDEO CAMERAS ARE PERMITTED OUTSIDE THE RING AND AROUND THE VENUE.  THESE DECISIONS WERE MADE TO PREVENT THE MISUE OF PHOTOGRAPHS IN THAT THEY MAY BE SOLD OR PUT ON THE INTERNET BY THIRD PARTIES WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE OWNERS OF THE DOGS OR OTHER PERSONS INVOLVED IN THE SHOW.

If any further information on the above is required please call the Chairman of the GSD Club of Scotland, Mr. Keith Venterman on 01383-889577 any time after 6 p.m. Monday to Friday.

Signed on behalf of The Officials & Committee of the GSD Club of Scotland by - Aileen A Mathieson Hon. Secretary

Heather, is it any wonder theres confusion? First the advertising is selectively offered and sponsorship is requested for what is said to be " Joint Clubs 2 day UK National GSD Championship Show will be the first ever UK GS Breed show to be extensively featured in fotos and word". Now a third party tells us thats not correct.

Then we're told its non profit making, but now its that any profit will cover the photographers selective costs involved in the hobby.

Some of us, like Linda B, believed the book was to be along the lines of Urma  Thats stretching the imagination a bit dont you think? And no, actually, I didnt know that Lin had been the official photographer or that all of that had now changed as well. Confused? you bet I am!

As good as everyones photos are, I think I'll stick to taking my own now that cameras are allowed.

Zac

I was advised  not to reply to this thread this evening but so many people are so quick to jump on me and try to blacken me that I feel I have no option..

I am really upset at all of this . The  reason no one prior to the original email was contacted re advertising  after the initial email  was because the small 20 page alowance for it was booked within 2 hours. There was no point in contacting anyone else at that point as there was no space left to offer,,,I emailed the people I did because they were the addresses i had and a few additonal via CHAMPDOGS list but it was publicly advertised on my site for about 4 weeks prior for all to see  had they looked. and  if you look at the list of people emailed its certainly not elitist .

 In answer to those re time passed since then basically I have not been able to comment on the project as I have been waiting since then  for OFFICIAL permission from the British Sieger Working Party to announce the project publicly .. BUT I have answered all queries/questions when asked privately .. I emailed carole Lister again this weekend asking if I could  be given official confirmation so that I could publicly announce the whole project . Which I intended to do as soon as I had said permission.The new 440 page project with much increased advertising would have allowed everyone the chance to advertise .. I had/have booked an advert in the next league magazine to say as much... ..... But I wasn't prepared to preempt permisson and spoil the chances of official backing.Tester books went infront of the British Sieger Working Party's last meeting and  I am lead to believe official backing is to be granted  . so all i can say is  Please do not throw knives at when you are not in possession of the facts!!!  Also lease note: Advertising was not to line my pockets but to off set the print costs.. There are people who still dont put £££ first and I cant believe I am being shot down by some of you for doing this ..

 You comment on my benefit status Zac , how do you know what my employment status is?  This really makes me angry the fact I feel I have to come on and defend myself from a screed of assumptions.. As it happens yes I am on benefits at present  after just finshing a 6 month  business trial via Sciottish enterprise , does that make me a villan, it certainly does not? I hope to have a successful small  business regarduing my artwork and am working hard to source all the help available to do this in Scotland. I didn't charge for photographs when I had the freedom to charge what ever I wanted because profit is not my motivation.. but again that appears to be a bad thing to some? I just dont get it!

I have given  the costings for the project to anyone that has asked .I have nothing to hide..

And NOTE : I was meant to be the official photogrpaher for the 2 day show but not at the exclusion of other cameras ,I felt i had to resign this positon before I was sacked  as i just would not agree to pay them whatever they decided for the privilege of a non profit book . I wanted to try and provide the best images I could for exhibitors with no charges for them so felt I had to step down.  If that makes me unreasonable then shoot me but i was actually trying to save exhibitors money not take it from them!.. It takes more to make the world go round than money .. In this case I hoped a publication might lift breed morale  ( despite the images not being of URMA quality)

 Sue B,I am particulary hurt by your comments, I  am grateful for the chance you gave me at West Yorks , that wont change. You were in my original

Heather:

As the 2 day show statement was on your page of this thread, can you clear up for me 2 points  regarding the taking of photos please.

Is the " Official photographer " going to ask permission of the dog owners, not all owners seek publicity or see a photo as a means to advertise their wares.Some owners have good jobs and don't need their dogs to provide an income.

And secondly whats to stop people taking photos of winners etc from outside the ring, with a half decent camera and long lens this would be simple.

Really it would have all been better of the 2 day committe not to have had these unworkable rules.

Thanks Heather for clearing up a few of my concerns.

440 pages of advertising eh? Well that certainly will go a long way towards the £1000's Sue B predicted it would cost to produce such a book.

I dont not support the venture, I just wasn't as informed as you seem to have been, and neither it seems, were a few others.

I would say that it surprises me if the organisers of British Sieger are allowing photos taken by their official photographer to be used in this way, but it wont be the first thing that has made me raise an eyebrow today

Zac

Heather: yes i have read it thats why i asked you your opinion on my 2 questions.thanks anyway-guess i should have known better-flannel is something you wash your face with.

Pencil, please!!! It's been a long day!  You asked me questions, that I cannot possibly answer, well one of them anyway.  How the heck do I know what their official photographer is going to do in relation to asking permission?  Ask the committee or the photographer.  As for your second question, nothing is stopping them and yes it would be simple.  Does this satisfy your needs?

Zac, the book is a total of 440 pages, including the advertising, so no it will not pay for the project, hence the need for sponsorship.  I am better informed than most, because I spend time with Lin and count her as a friend.  You would all have been equally informed in due course with the advert.  And why wouldn't the British Sieger want photo's used in this way.  They are used in Our Dogs, Dog World, BC Magazine and on numerous websites.  This book is to promote the breed, is that not a good thing?

You know what, like Lin I am sick of trying to defend and justify.  If your not happy then don't participate in it, it's that simple.  I'm tired now, so goodnight.

Interesting, I wonder if it will be illegal to bring camera's and video equipment to the next USA Sieger Show? Maybe they don't want the bad exposure that tUScA is getting now with the release of video that has caused such a stir.

Sue,

Let's get one thing straight.  I posted my reply or was doing so as you were obviously doing yours, that much I can see from the times.  After posting mine, I then read yours.  My reply was in direct reply to Pencil and Zac, not that I have to justify that to anyone.  If I had issue with anything you had said, believe me I would state it and state it clearly.  I have no problems speaking my mind or defending my opinions, thank you very much.  If  you feel there is something I should take issue over with you then please state it and I will.

You seem to be reading something into this that is simply not there.

It is obvious that for many people in our breed "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". They very quickly assume they "know it all", when they clearly do not! They are very quick to condemn without full and accurate facts, continually assuming many things while still short on facts.
I do not consider myself elite, and I leave democracy for when it is relevant. Fairness is very important to me, and yet I see very little of it. However I am certain of one thing in our breed, there are enough people involved in our breed who are more than capable of destroying any beneficial GSD breed initiative before it gets of the ground.
I only wish they could match their vitriolic comments with positive action for our breeds’ future. I have witnessed on here the most deplorable and disgusting assassination attempt of one of the nicest, most genuine and generous people in our breed. We certainly do not deserve her, and she certainly does not deserve the ill informed and presumptuous rhetoric spewed forth with such alacrity and denigration on this thread.
Our breeds show scene is facing doom and gloom here in Great Britain, being destroyed from the inside by the very people who profess to care about our breed.
I suggest you all await the advert about this planned book, if Lin is still inclined to proceed with it. Our breeds show scene is hanging by a thread, we can all shoulder some of the blame for its demise during the last decade or so.
I hope it is not too late for us all to start pulling together and start supporting those amongst us who really can make a difference, if only for the sake of our dogs.
David Payne

Heather I was going to bed too but first I must point out that my comments re why Lin is no longer the official photographer for the 2 day are not misinformed. They come from her posting on this very site where she says "I was meant to be the official photographer for the 2 day show but not at the exclusion of other cameras ,I felt i had to resign this positon before I was sacked  as i just would not agree to p