German Shepherd dog

Chirs:  If you maintain pressure, pulling against her does she hold on or are you saying she bites and releases?

Have you first checked her mouth?  Check her mouth and teeth for soreness, misaligned teeth, any sort of infection going on.  If her mouth is 100% clear, then it could be just training, or - worst scenario - could be simply a poor genetic grip behavior.  Good genetic grip behavior I know can be seen clearly (full, calm grips, centered on the sleeve/tug/pillow, not letting go) by that age, maybe poor genetic grip behavior can also be seen.  But I expect if you make sure there is nothing wrong with her mouth, nothing hurting her to bite and grip - then try putting her on a harness, back-tying her, give a lot of motion and get her really going for the tug, let her catch it then immediately pull back gently, at first only for a split second, then release, as she holds on better give her more and more length of time with the tugging before release/reward.  Hopefully she will learn to fight, hold on and win/carry.

molly

I was training a dog that was the same way.  She would bite anything that moved then just let go.  If it moved it got bit, then she just let go.  So we switched her bite training to more agitation than prey drive.  That made all the difference in the world. I thought for sure this dog would never bite and hold.  Now once she bites she holds.  You may want to try that.  But I do agree with Molly.  Check her mouth.  A guy in our training club had a dog with a weak bite, it used to be good and strong then it went soft.  We checked his mouth and he had a large piece of wood that was embedded in the roof of his mouth.  His owner was not sure how long it was there but it sure made a difference once it was out.

Shawn

I would not right off this dog yet, she is young and there is also the issue of her hormones.  She could be working not in prey drive,  I would suggest lots of big prey moves,  work her in all prey, do misses with her to frustrate her.  Of course, I could be wrong but it's worth a try!

Louise just brought up the subject of hormones in an entirely different subject so they were on my mind.

This behavior may or may not have to do something with the lack of or presence of an appropriate and genetically based grip. In my experience, many dogs who exhibit such behavior are not confident enough with the person doing the work. The first thing to try is having the dog work with someone else that it knows but does not have a lot of experience with, especially if that experience has been obedience required of the dog.

It sounds counter intuitive, but even one who is normally with the dog can, in fact, be too much initially for the dog to challenge. If as described, the dog has plenty of prey drive, then this is most likely the issue, barring any sort of mouth or tooth issue such as an injury, cracked tooth etc.

One way to deal with this is to put a tup or a ball on the end of a flexible buggy or horse whip. This puts the handler in question well away from the dog. One moves the tug or ball around in a circle, keeping it just ahead of the dog. It cannot be too easy for the dog to get it, nor does one want to make it so frustrating for the dog it will give up.  The tug or ball MUST remain live. Initially, once the dog gets the tug, just pull from the pole. Eventually, one lets go of the pole and grabs the line, at first nearest the pole and pulls and keeps it live. The idea is that hopefully the dog will gain confidence in holding onto the object and as it does, one can slowly down the line to where the tug is. This building confidence can take several weeks to longer, depending on the dog. This is one way Bernhard Flinks builds drive and grip. There are additional steps once this is working, but I won't go into that here.

Another good way to deal with this kind of problem is to tie the dog on a pole. Bring a second dog out to actually work doing the same thing above, or just "fishing" with the tug or ball. It can be on a leash if there is the possibility of a fight and in that case, keep it on the other side of the person swinging the tug. One wants a fanatical second dog who could care less about the dog on the pole but wants the toy. If one can get the dog who is not biting really revved up, then swing the object past it on the pole. 

I have seen dogs take a long time to build confidence like this, but, if the dog has a good prey drive, my bet is that I could get the appropriate behavior out of the dog. There is always the possibility that despite everything else being desired in a good working dog, that indeed, a given dog displaying such behavior will not ever develop confidence, but, in my experience, it is rare. I am not ever afraid either to get down on the ground level with the dog, and try to make something it loves to chase come alive and bite and then pull a bit. Obviously, one must "feel" out how much to tug and pull so that one does not overwhelm the dog. It should always win. With the right "touch" eventually the dog should become more and more confident and want to pull harder and harder. I don't look at the dog, and I stay on the ground as long as necessary.

At this age, if you cannot get some hint of success, you may have to cut your losses. It becomes an issue of how much time and effort to put into a given dog who does not simply do this naturally and/or have the confidence to do it.

Hi Chris,

I would want to hear more of the training behind this dog. What age was she started? How much bitework training has she been exposed to?

My experience is that the genetic componant of grips is there early on. If they are full and hard, only bad training wrecks it. If it is little mouthy, training can improve it.

Don't take this the wrong way, but for me, if the dog has always been this way or has had very little bite training, I would not waste any more time on her. Find a different job for her.

Just an opinion from very little information.

Louise, it is neither Mona nor Lissy. Mona is in Germany already and doing well in training and Lissy will be going soon,  when Joe flies over this summer to see my parents. It is a littermate to Lissy who I am undecided with. She is not on my website. You know as well as I do how much it costs for training and titling. Leah is a great dog, very outgoing, sociable and active. Her sister Lissy is different: That girl holds on and is absolutely crazy about bitework. She also has defense as well, Leah does not at all. It is amazing how different two sisters can be. The things they have in common are their hyperactivity and dominance. Both are dominant which they show toward over odgs (but never towards each other, strange isn't) and both can take corrections quite well.

GARD: Leah has not been exposed to anything major yet. You have to know that we had intentions to send her to a friend in Germany who has had some of my dogs in the past. But contrary to some beliefs, you can not send a dog to Germany who will not bite with a good grip. No reputable trainer would accept such a dog. That dog would be sent back after a couple of months training without seeng improvements. Our friend does not want any formal training on a dog at all, but bitework to keep up with drives and to teach correct grips. I discussed Leah with him, when I went over to Germany last month and he basically said that it would be a wast of time and money if she does not hold on. He further stressed that we needed to do a lot of "carrying" exercises outside the training field. You might be right with the "genetic component". Leah has a "chopper" mentality: Throwing a ball or a stick, she runs after it, grabs it, holds it for 5 to 10 seconds and spits out. Then, she is after something new, another ball or even a buzzing insect. That is why I call her the dog with ADHD. Very frustrating! So, I was hoping for some advice on improvements in grip work and how to get her to carry. Otherwise, I will have to find a new job elsewhere for her, which would be a shame.

Hodie, the "helper" work so far was only done by Joe (my better half) and another friend which she has known well. There are no confidence issues there. But we might try to go to somebody else just to try. We have also tried the approach with a second dog, which only served more of a distraction. Maybe, she needs to go back on the tie-out. There is a club in Germany where we go to for training and they always tie young dogs or older puppies out just to watch the training activities, nothing else. These dogs do nothing but watch everything from the sidelines for an hour or so.

Thanks for the responses I aready got, by mail and pm. We will check her mouth carefully, but I doubt that there is anything. I have heard of these kind of cases too. A friend in Germany had a dog with the same problem and found out that he had tonsilitis. After the tonsils were taken out, the dog was fine.

Happy training everybody, we will take Leah out again today.

Chris

IMO, not wanting to hold on has nothing to do with either lack of courage or prey drive. It seems more to do with genetic "hard wiring". For example. I mentioned earlier on this thread about my now 12-year-old bitch (Kirschental parents--both HGH--one was SchH3). She is a full, younger sister to Farus Kirschental--supposedly a pretty damned tough dog--reportedly used by folks with working lines.

Eike has intense prey drive. When I get ready to take her somewhere (especially, for a ride in the van), I have to let her hold onto her leash and let her take me for a walk--all the while she is squealing happily. Otherwise, she will grab (more if a sharp pinch than a full-mouthed grip) me by the sleeve or forearm. I have to turn my side or back to her as she rushes towards me to greet me when I go outside where she has been for several hours. When she is crated in the van and a bicyclist or pedestrian passes nearby, the whole van shakes as Eike seeks to intimidate the poor, unsuspecting soul!

When she was ~9 months old (and had been training in herding since she was 4 months), she managed to totally "take down" a huge, uncooperative ram. This ended her herding training because my trainer friend with the sheep nearly had a heart attack when pulling Eike off the sheep.

Anyhow, as a youngster, Eike was definitely not lacking in courage. I figure that, with her herding heritage, she was hardwired to grip the sheep but not to hold on for long. She also had intense search drive in tracking.

At her breeder (co-owner) insistence, I sent her to German for schutzhund titling (he thought that Ulf Kinzel charged too much for HGH training). What a shame--she would have had no problem with the protection work associated with the HGH.

When Eike came home, I could see that she had been trained with way too much compulsion and had been rewarded (with a tug, ball, or food) for attention/focus only while in a stationary position and not while heeling.

The German trainer said that Eike had no problems with bitework on the home field. However, the grip problems occurred on a strange field with a strange helper (such as is required for the BS in Germany--where the dog must work with a landesgruppen helper--never on the home field with the familiar club helper). So, Eike returned to the USA with only a SchH1 and with a BS never attempted. Training at the local, club level was unreliable and did not support her continued training.

The only other suggestion I have for your work with Leah is to do no obedience work with her. This may make her more interested in her expectations of rewards from her handler and less likely to focus on the helper and the sleeve. Otherwise, you may wish to consider HGH for Leah.

Hello Chris, I have seen this in many dogs at different clubs, it is not uncommon in dogs that start in schH a little later than young puppies.  I don't know if this is the situation with your dog.  I generally back up in training and go to a tug.  I will attach a leash or long line to the tug and work the dog in prey.  I make the dog miss several times and get it worked up.  Then I present the tug for a bite, I don't slip the tug right away.  I move in a circle with the dog, not facing the dog, so the dog is slightly behind me and I don't make eye contact as I move in the circle still holding the tug.  I then slip the tug and have the handler run with the dog.  While the handler is running with the dog I grab the line attached to the tug.  If the dog is holding the tug, I will apply gentle pressure while pulling on the line as the handler moves.  If the dog drops the tug I immediately jerk the line, stealing the tug back from the dog and the tug comes back to life.  I then cause the dog to miss the tug several times before giving a bite.  The next bites becomes progressively harder for the dog to keep the tug.  Still working in prey, as I run with the handler and dog carrying the tug I will suddenly pull on the line and reel the dog into me, starting the fight over again.  

I then progress to the handler running with the dog past me and I grab the tug and start the fight again.  At this stage, I will pet the dog while it is calmly holding the tug.  I will keep the tug moving while doing this if necessary.  The goal is to get the dog to hold the tug calmly and to be secure with the helper.  I will then transition this to the sleeve and work the sleeve as a tug initially.  Again, this is all done in prey and meant to be fun for the dog.  When the dog learns the game holding the sleeve is no longer a problem.  This can take several sessions, usually the dog has a breakthrough session and suddenly gets it.  If the is high drive be patient.  

Now, there are dogs who are so high in defense (civil) that they drop the sleeve because it is the man that they truly want and not the sleeve.   If this is the case I will work the dog differently, but the goal will still be to get the dog to grip the sleeve, fuul, hard and calm. 

In regards to the grip, I absolutely believe there is a large genetic component.  Full, hard grips are usually genetic.   However, good training can makes grips better just as poor training/decoy work and even handling can make great grips chewy and weak.  Nurture in my opinion is almost as important as nature in bitework.  

Jim

Original poster,

I think it is too difficult to determine the cause of the issue over the net. My suggestion to you would be to find a top notch trainer in your area and get some first hand help in evaluating the cause and correcting the issue if possible. It would be genetics, helper work, training, or a whole host of things.

When you ask for help on the net with a training issue like this, I feel that you are going to get a host of suggestions and any number of them may (or may not) work, through combining 5-6 solutions in a "custom fix" will probably not accomplish a darn thing. Find a person you trust  with a proven track record - someone you can get face to face with and get some experienced help (it may cost, but it will be worth it if you pick the right help), or you run the possibility of aggravating the situation or causing other problems in the attempt to solve the original one.

Best of luck to you.

Chris, it may be as simple as the light has not gone on yet. We have a dog in our club that had the same characteristics. She had rock solid nerve and her prey is good but she would release once she gripped. The light went on for this bitch at about 22 months. She is now 25 months and her grips are awesome. Some people in the club are surprised but I tell them that she always had good nerve but maturity often kicks in later with some dogs. Not saying this is answer but will say at 17 months to 21 months we had same behavoir but you wouldn't know it now.

Very difficult to comment without actually seeing the dog on and off the field. Need to see how the handlers work her, body language etc. My guess is this dog needs more confidence. Drive and "bite" sound ok. Agree with suggestions so far. Would take advantage of her strong drive and do some pole work, bungee, tageting etc. in other words get her to focus a bit more on object.

Unfortunately i think probably not enough foundation work done as pup, in which case this is very difficult to overcome in the adult animal that doesn't possess a "genetic grip". Depends on how much work you want to put in.....and how long you are prepared to wait......?