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Classified: Black Japedo
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Un house-breakable dog (15 replies)
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I've just wondered if anyone has had cases with a dog that cannot be house-trained. I'm just looking for some theories, medical or conditional that could explain a scenario I knew:
1) the dog was purchased as a puppy through a breeder and moved into a household where the other dogs were already housebroken. Owner was experienced with dogs, the puppy's specific breed and knew all the housetraining tricks from "pee-pads" to a doorbell.
2) puppy would occasionall "go" outside, but was also perfectly happy to urinate/defecate in the house, car, crate, etc without giving any tell-tale signs of having to eliminate -- the sniffing, circling, looking at the door, whining, etc. Did not seem to prefer any spcific area to relieve herself indoors or out. Oftimes the puppy seemed to hold it outside, and relieve herself as soon as she came indoors.
3) the dogs had a designated bathroom area outside in their yard; the scent should've attracted the puppy to eliminate there.
4) owner took puppy to the vet to see if there were any medical conditions that might explain the behavior: urinary tract infection, nerve problems that didn't let her know she was "full"... and the pup got a clean bill of health in all regards.
After several months of this -- the last straw being the dog sleeping on the owner's bed with the other dogs, standing up, peeing in the bed, then lying back down IN THE PEE! (when she had a choice to move elsewhere) -- the owner relocated the dog to an outside run. The dog had other canines for company, a doghouse, fresh food and water daily, and a heated barn with kennel to sleep in at night. The dog was still taken out for walks, training, and roadtrips, and included as part of the pack.
Eventually the owner had to move, and didn't want to bring the dog with her to another apartment -- for obvious reasons. A "friend" offered to take the dog, and was made aware of the dog's housebreaking issues. Said "friend" placed the dog in foster care for a rescue organization. On the adoption notes it said the dog was having housebreaking issues, had been neglected, but was learning everything else very quickly. (The dog had already been some obedience training in German, but the pet-notes didn't mention that.)
The dog was adopted, but several months later was listed back on the adoption site with the new comment: "She is working on potty training since she has lived her entire life outdoors in a cage."
Obviously, the dog did not spend her whole life outdoors, so this doesn't excuse the lack of housebreaking which at this point has been unsuccessful multiple times in the past.
My question is: What could explain a dog's indiscriminate bathroom behavior time and time again? and: Are there some dogs that just can't be house-broken? (If so, what does one do with a dog like that?)
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Interesting question and a really tough answer
I bought three dogs that had lived their entire lives in outside kennels. Two females and a male.
Both females house trained very fast the male never really did.
We have just recently purchased a female {2 years old} never crate or house trained.
We started with crate training and a very very small sized crate and slowley made it bigger; once that was completely accomplished then one room at a time started the house training.
My only advice would be to start with a crate and accomplish crate training first. Then slowly work on the house training. The dog should be tethered to the owner; or confined to one room and not allowed to run all over the house! At least not until the training is accomplished.
I do not really believe there is such a think as un house trainable; however some dogs take longer then others to understand!
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I agree with german shepherd lover,we bought a 2year old female who was very naughty in the house and thought the whole house was a toilet,so we put her in cage at night and let her out to do her business in the morning,It took just over a week for her to learn and i have to be honest we have never looked back.She is an absolute pleasure to be with and very obedient.Maybe we were lucky. |
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After the crate training is thoroughly completed I have heard of people having success with placing the pup in a crate with the door open to a dog door. the dog is then in the position of having no choice but to do his business outside. Of course if there is an adequate enclosure outside the dog door. |
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What if the dog has no problems about messing in its crate, even if the crate is appropriately sized for the animal (not spacious enough to allow messing one end and sleeping in the other), and the dog is not crated excessively and forced to eliminate in its den? I know it was a small dog, so she had a small crate. I know the dog wasn't given free range of the house, and had been home-leashed like germanshepherdlover had mentioned, but she would sometimes just squat and go while leashed to her owner, and give no warning. Incredulously, I remember seeing the dog do this without giving any signs of needing to go.
I'm not an expert on "non-housetrainable dogs", so all I could offer was advice that had always worked for me with my dogs (pups, adults, and the occasional mutt house-pet)
If the pup was purchased at 12 weeks old or so, could this willingness to urinate and defecate in her crate have been a hang-over behavior from living in unsanitary conditions beforehand?
I'd never heard of an unhousetrainable dog that didn't have a medical problem. But another breeder said sometimes the puppies' housing conditions can cause an impact like that. If so, would it carry on for the rest of the dog's life?
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I agree with the poster who suggests tying the dog to the owner while the dog is indoors. It might sound drastic, but if the dog feels uninhibitied about soiling in the house to the point that it will urinate on it's bed AND lie in it, this may be the only solution. This way the handler will be able to strongly correct the dog immediately, there will be no question in the dog's mind. It could also be that every time the dog is in a different house it will need to be watched very carefully. Also, this dogs water should be taken up after dark to help prevent accidents in the beginnning.
I have never heard of an adult GSD that was this difficult to house train and really I wonder if there isn't something wrong with the dog despite what the vet said. Maybe get a 2nd opinion? Maybe the dog is a little loco en la cabassa.
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When I was young we bought a newfoundland puppy from a breeder. This puppy was the same way, right from the start. She had NO problems eliminating and then sleeping in it. Actually - she would drink her own pee - it was disgusting! We gave up on keeping her in the crate since that didnt help, and tried leaving her loose in the laundry room, hoping that she'd figure out at the very least not to lay in it...but that never happened, and when she was about 6-7 months old we sent her back. Afterwards we learned of the exctremely unsanitary conditions the puppies had been kept in growing up. When they learn, from birth, to live in their own urine, I think it's nearly impossible to completely housebreak them.
It sounds like this was the case with the GSD pup, and I would tend to point the finger at the breeder. Many puppy mill/petstore dogs are like this since they are raised in a small cage where they get used to using the bathroom in their living quarters. |
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Phgsd,
> ...hoping that she'd figure out at the very least not to lay in it...but that never happened
Sounds exactly like the problem with that puppy! |
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We fostered a puppy who would sleep in her pee'd in bed without any thought - we resorted to investing in a crate with a suspended floor and a plastic tray underneath to catch the pee.
She was extremely well brought up - her breeder has bred my other dog and I know that they were cleaned out extremely regularly as a tiny puppy and should have progressed with house training as normal. At 9 months she left us - this was previously expected - and at this time she was still not clean and trust worthy. She was eventually rehomed to a family who wanted an outside dog. She eventually did become clean but only after she was spayed. We tried everything everyone ever suggested and nothing worked, we just had to accept that that was who she was - a bit like a child who refuses to give up wearing nappies and knowing messes in them.
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Sometimes such behaviors can be seen where a puppy/litter wasn't kept in clean indoor environment when smaller. That DOES matter. If they learn to be ok with poop and pee around(even if the breeder says it was clean, if you weren't there all the time, you don't know it for certain), then they can be AWFUL to housebreak. And yes, it can last throughout the lifetime potentially unless you've got a head harder than the dog.
This is why we whelp and raise our puppies right here in our home; our water bill along with purchasing of gallons of bleach and clotheswashing detergent go up when we have a litter because of DAILY puppy laundry doing their blankets and cleaning out their big cage. We give 5-6 week old pups body baths to keep them feeling clean also (we don't submerge their heads). Of course, we don't wanna smell puppy poo in our living room, so we MUST keep things clean!
Pups can be raised in a clean barn, but its still a barn, and no pre-thought is given to teaching a puppy not to pee or poo where it sleeps. That can still complicate housebreaking.
Have you tried limiting WHEN she gets to water, and as soon as you start to see she's waking up from a nap, whisk her outside, then treat her with something extremely yummy to reinforce pottying outside?
Typically it seems our breed is pretty intelligent and simple to housebreak. She could have an abnormally small bladder which doesn't allow her to hold it good, but that doesn't explain why she'll suddenly poo without warning. Sometimes stress can bring on a need to poo-thus pooing in the crate when going somewhere.
I sure hope you get it figured out. Best wishes with it. |
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I have only had this problem with one (1) very lively bitch. During later puppyhood she would occassionally have an accident when crated for the night, and later she would occassionally do the same in the house.
She was bit unique as her poop was softer and lighter in colour than normal, and I suspected pancreatic insufficiency. She is also the only one I ever had that ate her own poop and this was no doubt caused by insufficient digestion. Foul girl, to say the least. It was impossible to keep weight on her due to her high activity level and she looked more like a coyote than a GSD.
It took more than two (2) years for her to mature to the end that she was 100% trustworthy in the house. During this time her poop became more normal, she stopped eating it, she put on very nice muscle mass, and her body finally caught up with her massive skull. She is a wonderful bitch, but was worrysome when young. And she was always treated with parasite preventatives and checked at least annually. Her bloodwork was always correct. I do think that while she demonstrates high intelligence that she was a "slow bloomer" when it came to psychological and physiological maturity.
She was the only challenge I ever had regarding housebreaking. All of the other dogs had an occasional accident when being conditioned, but that is very normal. I tend to start with the crate, then a small room, a successively larger room, and then the entire house. And some dogs are successful in a very short time. I do think the size of the dwelling has a lot to do with housebreaking; for if a room or house is large enough the dog will think it can poop in one corner and play in the other. This may explain why some of the "toy" breeds are harder to housebreak, i.e. the ratio of the dog's physical size to its surroundings.
Regards,
Bob-O |
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>I do think the size of the dwelling has a lot to do with housebreaking; for if a room or house is large enough the dog will think it can poop in one corner and play in the other. This may explain why some of the "toy" breeds are harder to housebreak, i.e. the ratio of the dog's physical size to its surroundings.
I was training a spunky Yorkie terrier in NY once: Too large a crate just gave the dog space to mess on one half, and frolic on the other. I see this fairly often when owners buy adult-sized crates for their dogs, then don't put in a crate divider to limit the amount of space the pup has while its still small. -Normally!- the dog won't mess at the same side she lives on. The dog that started this thread was the only exception I knew. Even outdoor dogs rarely mess in a crate.
Also you have to figure, the bigger a house or the smaller the dog, the more places a pup can sneak off to for acts of hygenic indiscretion. Plus small dogs leave little puddles and piles thatt aren't noticed as quickly as a GSD-made mess ^_^ |
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Interesting that the dog will go potty where she sleeps, usually that is not the case, hence why crates are so wonderful for potty training. One thought, is that this dog, might do better living outdoors. If it seemed that she seemed to hold it outdoors only to go potty indoors. Give her no choice but to go outdoors. So, will she still go to the bathroom in her crate?
I too think that in the right hands, this dog can be housebroken. If the dog doesn't care about being dirty, it does make it a lot more difficult though. Plus this has become a very bad habit. |
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I'd assume the dog still messes in her crate. I know she's up for adoption -again!- and it sounds like it's housebreaking problems still. |
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I had a pomeranian the same she would go in her bed and crate in fact anywhere.I do think small breeds are hard to house break.I havent encountered this problem in a gsd. |
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It seems that the dogs behavior needed some modification. I have had dogs poop in there crate because they were disgruntled at me. But, a little punishment for the wrong behavior corrected it. I would have let her know that peeing or pooping in the house only gained a negative consequence. If the dog was smart enough for basic obedience , she could be trained to not potty in the house. It would have become an obedient behavior to go outside not inside.
In the middle of an accident is the best opportunity to imprint on your dog that the behavior of peeing or pooping is not what we do in the house or crate. I rush up to the dog grab either side of the neck and repeat NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO , as I drag the dog out side and take it to the yard and then say go potty OUT side. Usually once or twice is all it takes for the dog or puppy to realize that I don't like them doing there business in the house, and they will at least get whinny or circle alot to let me know that they really have to go potty, but don't want to do it in the house because of the Negative Consequence it will yield.
If I am crate training and they don't seem to be bothered by peeing in the crate, then I will watch them like a Hawk and either have e-collor on them or I will rush up to the crate Saying NO NO NO NO again while shaking the crate, and then reaching in and dragging them to the yard again and tell them to potty outside. Then clean the crate and put them back in, and an hour by hour potty break until they finally go outside. When they do , they get a ton of prays and a treat.
They learn real quick that the safest and most positive place to go potty is outside.
Some dogs work great for positive re-inforcement, other work for the absence of the negative consequence |
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