German Shepherd dog

I was at the schutzhund club with my dog, training.. usual day, the owners of the club brought out a dog that I had never seen before.. beautiful bi-color.. my mother asked to pet him, the owner said okay, aftera few moments of petting him, the dog started leaning into her, jumped up and gripped her throat, put a gash on her throat about an inch deep.

There were four people standing around when it happened including the trainer of the club, everyone took a step back when he attacked like my mother had a disease or something, luckily he let go on his own... they didn't even correct the dog, one person even said "oh.. it's just a scratch you don't need to go to the hospital." 

I later learned, that someone gave them the dog TWO years ago and he can't do schutzhund because he's a "free spirit" and is slightly handler aggressive.

Thoughts?

glad your mom is ok that dog needs sorting out and the owner if one of mine did that unprovoked it would be a trip to the vet!!

When asked if they are going to put the dog down, she said she had not decided the fate of the dog, like Agar said... what if that dog gets ahold of a little kid?  That is my mother and I's major concern.  No one helped her, my mother is disabled... it was so sad to see her alone, against this dog, and I was too far away.. the trainer of all people I am most upset with, 10 years, and he didn't have the reflex to do something while he held onto her neck.

Infection could be a BIG issue if it sets in.  I just spent a week in the hospital not too long ago with something very minor that turned into an infection that wasn't so minor.  And to boot you're mother is disabled makes the whole situation even all the more worse. 

There's no excuse for all those people to have just stood there watching it happen.  I understand sometimes things happen so fast you tend to freeze up but I can't see EVERY SINGLE person freezing up INCLUDING the owner. 

Did the owner ever at any point apologize or inquire about your mother's recovery?

The club should have insurance.  If your mom didn't sign any sort of waiver, she should at least get her medical bills paid for!  I'm so glad the injury wasn't worse and that she'll be ok.

Years ago at our club we had a dog that was like that.  The handler bought (cheap) a schH1 GSD  (this was after he tried to do schutzhund with offf breed).  Anyway, he asked me to hold the dog while he walked away to do a recall, dog seemed normal.  As he was about half way down field the dog just turned and attacked me.  I have a scar on my forearm, but that's OK because it saved my face.   Anyway, the guy felt really bad & it wasn't his fault.  I didn't go to the hospital, just used good sense and took care the punctures and rips until they healed.  Sometimes shit happens, we are dealing with dogs in a protection sport.  In my case, holding onto a dog I didn't know well was my fault, no one else's. 

How awful for your mom! She is lucky the dog didn't get the carotid artery. I thought I read on another thread recently, the one about the dog bite at Petsmart, that whenever you go to the hospitol or doctor with a dog bite it is reported. Hard call on if the dog should be PTS. I think it might depend on if his owners get a wake up call or if they are still going to be unresponsible .....sounds like they were as much at fault for saying she could pet the dog.

i think the dog needs to be assessed by a professional trainer if indeed the dog is aggressive without good cause yes it should be destroyed. and the owners need to take a look at their dog training skills

no what i am saying is the dog needs to be temperament tested

if you truly think that this dog poses a risk to the general public i strongly suggest that you speak to the owners. or speak to animal control

I hope this hasn't put your mom off our breed, although I could certainly understand if it did.  I also hope she knows this was in no way her fault, and the way it was handled was wrong.  Someone needed to step up to the plate and at least apologize to her.  If it had been me, and some asshole tried to patronize me by saying "It's just a scratch" I might have been unable to control the back of my hand against their face.

This is exactly why I don't pet anyone else's dog at any schutzhund, PSA, etc. event or training.  Anywhere where dogs are being trained to do bitework, to me is not a "social" zone and I'm not not gonna go make buddies. These dogs often know exactly what they are there to do, can often hear the sounds of bitework and get VERY amped.

However, was the handler wrong? Damn right, they should've known better, they were ignorant and irresponsible.  Shame on them. Either they cannot read that dog worth a damn, or don't care about risking the safety of others- they can't handle a dog like that either way.

Furthermore, anyone passing judgement on this dog without seeing the dog himself and exactly what happened firsthand is showing their complete lack of real dog training experience. Some of us have actually had REAL LIFE experience in rehabilitating aggressive dogs. Don't preach about what you know nothing about. (Brit-brit!)

Did anyone else pick up on the fact that the dogs owner was also doing helper work with a green dog?  In my neck of the woods, only the more senior (longer in the tooth) helpers work green pups/dog, there is too much that can go wrong to quick and ruin a dog to warrent risking the use of a green helper.  So, making an assumption here, this guy, who can't handle his own dog, is doing advanced helper work for the club?  Huh?  While I doubt I'd have much desire to work a *truly* handler agressive dog, I doubt that if I ended up with one that I'd be allowing little old ladies to pet it either. 

Anyhow, the infection issue IS A BIG ONE.  There is a famous trainer/handler who was bitten in throat during a seminar several months ago and she is still fighting to recover from the infection.

-Calvin

KC, that isn't fair.. if someone tells you, you can pet their dog, you assume it's okay, there are plenty of friendly schutzhund dogs out there, a good example is Olex, I pet him, he kissed me. 

If your dog would bite someone in the face for no reason, he or she is not a very good dog, I want a dog that is clear headed when making a decision to bite or not.  I like my dogs. 

This dog also wasn't doing bitework, the wife did obedience with him.. they don't do bitework with him, because he's aggressive.  Trainer/partial owner said nothing to us, not a single word..

I think the dog should be put down...he's dangerous... the couple even admitted, he would not recall for nothing.

They brought him out to do some obedience work with him, apparently they never bring him out according to other club members... I can't get it thru my head, why they would say she could pet a dog like that... and all I keep seeing in my mind is 4 people taking steps back when he bit her, and not even correcting him?  The more I think about it, the more it pisses me off.  I am going to go this weekend, so they can see what he did to her.. but there is no way I can be a member, I will be bitter, and frustrated at their ignorance, and it will eventually cause me to snap, and I can be a real b!tch, then I end up with a bad name, which is the last thing I need, but you know what.. that is MY mother.

I don't think they are going to offer to pay expenses, I already brought up about the prescriptions she had to pay for, and they didn't say anything.

After 10 years, I'd think a person would be over the frozen stage, perhaps not.

This incident and many of the resposes here show  both poor judgement or inexperience.

1) EVERY dog bite can/should be prevented by the handler. There is not one single dog bite scenario that could not have ben avoided by safe handling and knowing your dog. Every dog will tell you they are going to bite before they do it.

2) Hello people you are in a venue where we are training dogs to bite. This is called being aware of inherent risks.

3) I find it funny that almost everyone lables human and/or handler aggression as "nervy" or unstable. Almost all of the people I here say that are inexperienced GSD/SCH people. The people who do not have the slightest idea how to read a dog. There is no doubt in my mind that the lady who got bit did something which provoked the dog, albeit unintentional. I see people all the time bend over a dog, give him a nice pat on the ribs, try to kiss it, grab there ears, etc. Something set this dog off. That does not automatically mean the dog is "nervy" or unstable. It could be sharp, dominante, or just a cocky ass of a dog. All of which I myself find appealing and signs of a good dog. That may not be your cup of tea but just because someone may not like it does not mean it is bad.

4) What really burns my hide is the people who say the dog needs to be put down or demanding to call Animal Control. Anyone with experience and a true love of bite work, knows that is the worst possible thing you can do. If you truley love the sport nd understand dogs you would never do this. Never. I have gone to the hospital 3 times for dog bites. I made up a story 3 times. I was working on my car, building a fence, etc. One doctor knew what it was and pressed me. I told him it was a dog bite and he preceded to hound me about identifying the dog. I told him there was no way in hell and if he didn't want to treat me I was on my way home.

I have had one of my dogs bite someone 2 times. Once was a training accident and a bad bite to the face. The person was a new decoy. He did not say a word. The other one was an abused dog and I let someone get to close and was a 1/2 behind when the dog told me he was going to bite her. This person was just a regular dog person, never exposed to bite work and she didn't identify my dog at the doctor or call A/C.

I am sorry this happened to the lady. It is inexusable and totally the fault of the handler. Just about everyone gets lulled into a false sense of security and gets lax with their dogs. Unfortuantely, this one ended in an injury. An injury I am sure was way overdramatized in this thread.

Anyone who advocates a dog being put down, without knowing the dog (which the OP stated they did not and no one posting does either) does not truely understand bitework and probably should not be participating in it. If I even heard someone say anything like this they would not be training with me.......ever.

Get A Real Dog, did you read my posts at all?  The dog was deemed unworthy for schutzhund YEARS ago because he was outright aggressive, that's why they were GIVEN the dog, so no, my mother did not provoke the dog unintentionally. 

I am a pretty good judge of character when it comes to dogs considering I got my first Shepherd when I was 9, and this dog has nerve issues, you did not see the dog, and how it reacted, I did, it could be bloodlines or the way it was raised.

I was waiting for someone like you to say something smart like "she provoked the dog"  bs.  Just bs.  We have had German Shepherds for over 10 years, I think my mother knows how to approach one, and if the dog isn't approachable say something.

Maybe people who can't breed or train properly should not be in this sport.

You damn right the dog should be put down, who in the right mind would want an aggressive dog like that? 

I'll put my name on that one. 

That is my MOTHER, you speak of.  Disabled, just had surgery not two months ago.  Who do you think you are, buddy? 

"Get a real dog"  That name is awfully contradicting, considering in my personal opinion a REAL dog, will not bite unless it's told to.

Kczaja,
How can you rehabilitate dogs like the one Silhouettes's mother got bit? Since I'm not the dog whisperer like you are, why did this dog lunge to Silhouettes's mothers neck area? I might not be a professional in dog training but I do know that when a predator is attacking it's prey that they attach their teeth near the neck area (Death lock) until their pray is dead.

Silhouettes's mother is very fortunate to have survived this attack. The next victim might not be so lucky if nothing is done.

A well stable Schutzhund dog should have no problem being petted before and after protection training. Back when my bitches father, Santos,  was well active in schutzhund.. I was able to pet him before and after protection training,  why do you suppose that is? Well lets see.. Hes in total control and hes clear headed with excellent temperament. He knows that he isn't suppose to bite anyone unless if he sees the sleeve and if given the command to bite.

This is exactly why I don't pet anyone else's dog at any schutzhund, PSA, etc. event or training.  Anywhere where dogs are being trained to do bitework, to me is not a "social" zone and I'm not not gonna go make buddies. These dogs often know exactly what they are there to do, can often hear the sounds of bitework and get VERY amped.

Silhouettes, Save your club dues for another club that has the experience and real knowledge. This club that you went to is very inexperience.  Can you possibly give us the name of this Schutzhund club? Which organization are they from? DVG or WDA? If nothing was done you should file up a complaint to the following organization that they belong to.

Please send out updates about your mother, I'm concern about her.

Let me put it to you this way..........

My mother has the BEST attorney in our state, she went up there over something completely different, attorney saw her neck, mom explained... he booked an appt ASAP when he saw it, she did not even ask for an appt..... and this lawyer does not take joke cases, huge lawfirm.

She doesn't want to press charges, it was the parents property.... they are elderly, live on a farm.. I would have to target them, they risk losing homeowners.. that isn't something we want. 

My mother's concern is for whoever could be next, second is medical expenses... we do not want to hurt anyone.

Brittany

I think I love you.  You complete me.  You complete me!

If you're going to quote me Britanny, make it very clear you're quoting me, please.

I think its funny how you go on and on and on about your dogs and their daddy and keep going back on your extremely meager experience. I've worked with more aggressive dogs of all breeds than you'll ever see in your life.  I have saved dogs from being put down. What have you done? That's right, 2 BHs. *claps*

I never said an agressive dog is not a candidate for euthanasia. Sometimes they are. But no real trainer makes that call sight unseen. Maybe this dog cannot be worked with, but maybe it can.

I have a very tough PP trained bitch who can do bitework demos for groups of girl scouts and cub scouts and be petted by them 5 minutes later.  Why? Because she's TRAINED. I'm sure if you saw how dominant/aggressive and downright nasty she was as a pup you would've been screaming "PUT HER DOWN". Now my daughter shows her in juniors and rally.

This dog that bit the OP's mother clearly lacks such training. Also, there are plenty of great working dogs out there that are NOT buddy-buddy with the public and there isn't  damn thing wrong with them. I will not sit here and waste my time trying to explain to you how to fix aggression.  It takes years to learn, and I'm still learning and improving myself.

Silhouettes: I hope you can browbeat the dipsh*t handler into owning up to his screwup and paying for your mom's care. It wouldn't be fair to sue the elderly couple, but perhaps the threat of it would spur him into action. How is she doing? By the way, is it a WDA or USA club? Maybe you could complain to the regional director?

Brittany please stop saying anything about what a well trained schutzhund dog should or shouldn't do because YOU DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE what you are talking about.   My god, your idiocy is breathtaking.

this is exactly why you should not pet any one's dog i do not understand the need to do that.these are not Labs and Golden Reterivers.there are too people at fault here,first one is the handler or trainer or who ever he,she is.for sure this individual has no idea what type of dog they are holding.if this is exactly what happened then it leads me to belive that this person does not have any knowledge about working germanshepherds. also i am very disappointed in people who are saying to put this dog down,if you call yourself a dog person ,you are certainly acting like the general public who are normally clueless about dogs and dog behaviour and usually that is how they react when they hear on the news about a dog attack.there are many reason why a dog would bite and if you are an intelligent person then  you will find the source of the problem before you hand out death sentences.there are more humans killing and hurting humans but i do not hear any death sentences being handed out.please use your head and try to figure out what i am saying here.thanx and have a nice day. ps here is a funny thing i hear every one wanting to own a dog that would bite for real,and when you find one then everyone wants to kill it, when you read this keep in mind that there is always a reason why a dog would bite, it is our fault that we are not always intelligent enough to know that.

"This is exactly why I don't pet anyone else's dog at any schutzhund, PSA, etc. event or training.  Anywhere where dogs are being trained to do bitework, to me is not a "social" zone and I'm not not gonna go make buddies. These dogs often know exactly what they are there to do, can often hear the sounds of bitework and get VERY amped.

However, was the handler wrong? Damn right, they should've known better, they were ignorant and irresponsible.  Shame on them. Either they cannot read that dog worth a damn, or don't care about risking the safety of others- they can't handle a dog like that either way."

I agree with your points.

Simple rule that most adults should know; Don't pet a dog that you don't know.

What is the point of petting a dog you don't know? Does it make you feel warm and fuzzy?

In the wild do wolves from other packs come over and socialise with a wolf pack? Not likely.

hello tigermouse, just so you know you are doing more injustice to the german shepherd breed then any dog would and here is why isay that normally general public already think of german shepherds to be rather scary and vicious dogs and especially when they see one wearing a muzzel.and here you are prading aruond your dogs in muzzels.if your dogs are well behaved and you are an experience dog handler you never need a muzzle.so please do not make the german shepherd any more dangerous in peoples'eyes then it already is that would be great help.thanx

got cut off......

With your behaviour here, I suspect you will find a hard time finding a club to train with if they know who you are.

Bottom line is the the resonsibility falls on the handler. He/she had a very poor lapse in judgment. Go get your lawyer and sue them. Please keep your comments that negatively reflect on bite work dog sports off the public forum. Those of us who truley love these sports already have a taboo we continually have to fight. We do not need someone who participates in the sport, especially one who's knowlege and experience is obvious, undermining dog sports. If you really want to do something about it, go to the governing body of the organization and file a formal complaint.

tea anyone??

Yes please....with a spot of milk!!!

Unfortunately this incident smacks to me of the "victim" not taking personal responsibility and trying to blame everyone else, the dog, the handler, the weather (we always use that excuse here in England) etc. etc

"Unfortunately this incident smacks to me of the "victim" not taking personal responsibility"

It's called ignorance.

I don't even know what to say to that.  How can any of you sit there and say *I* am responsible for my mother being bit?  This disgusts me, that humans could be so cold, and bitter.  She is an adult, and I was too far away to do anything.  I had to watch my mother get mauled by what was probably crossed with Showline or American (THAT would explain everything... poor breeding... bet that will piss a few of you off), and all you can think of is "it's your fault"  She has been in tears on and off, and this is your fight, "your to blame"  "she shouldn't be petting a schutzhund dog"  I seriously question your morals as not a person in this sport, but a human being.

There is only one type of person who would be okay with this type of behavior, someone who has an aggressive dog.

The HOSPITAL CONTACTS ANIMAL CONTROL.  Get it right if you wish to fight.

I am truly, sorry to hear that many of you do not trust your dogs in a public situation.

I love dogs, I have 5, and I would kill if someone tried to harm mine... and that doesn't mean I wont kill someones idiotic dog for trying to kill my mother.  This is normal.

Sure, I am inexperienced, I have to start somewhere, why am I even talking about my lack of experience with you?  I have no reason to explain myself to you.  This has little to do with my mother being attacked by a dog that gives German Shepherds a very, bad reputation... you try to blame it on her, instead of looking at the REAL problem, which lies with the owner, and the DOG.   I heard about the history of the dog, it doesn't take a scientist to realize the dog has nerve issues.

You have no argument, karma is a real b!tch Get A Real Dog, to say the things you have... there is something wrong with you, or your heart.  I can't decide.

This is why I never post on this board, because all you guys ever do is fight with each other.  AND BEING AS I AM INEXPERIENCED, where can I seek guidance?  I see users bashing people who are seriously sincere about getting into the sport, and all I ever see is them being put down.  No wonder why I see posts about "people ruining the breed" you are, because you are taking everything out of it that is is meant to be... a sport we enjoy with our dogs.

Shame upon you.

hun i hope you wont tar us all with the same brush

some of us do genuinely care!

you are in no way responsible for this.

some people just Post to wind people up...answer  take no notice!!! they ain't worth it

you keep at it

anyway i truly hope our mom gets better soon and don't let the b@#*@rds grind you down

if u get stuck pm the more sensible people on the board that way you can get the advice without the unhelpful comments 

regards T

Is it just me, or should one have a dog that failed schutzhund (meaning partially trained in attacking humans, I assume) being petted by strangers?

Should a dog like that be put down or caged forever, or worked with and take the chance that an accident may happen again?  Keeping in mind that some of the best animal trainers in the world have been hurt or killed by their highly trained performers (witness the Los Vegas tiger act and the recent TV star bear attack), or the pit bulls that killed their master (middle aged woman in the news last year).  The list goes on and on.

I once had a mixed breed dog that was the sweetest thing in the world to me and my wife, but hated children.  Why, I can only assume that the previous owners three kids mistreated him.  Nevertheless, I dealt with his "problem" for three years and finally made the decision to put him down, as it was just too much of a hazard that he might hurt a child someday.  I wrote about it on this site.  He would go through a window to get to a child, to eat him up.  I held him in my arms after he had the shot at the vets office, and I took him home and buried him on my property and speak to him when I pass, telling him how sorry I am that he was made like that by humans.  But, a man has to do what a man has to do.  Human children are more important than dogs.  I could have kept him caged and guarded for the rest of his life, but WHAT IF he got out?

Being a strong adult requires tough decisions.  Like whether or not to go to war, or put down a dog.

Some do not have the "makeup" to make decisions like that, thinking (actually hoping) that everything will be okay if they just work hard at something.

It is nobel to think that every thing can be made okay and the dog can lead a decent life, but many times it is foolish dreaming and hoping.

Yes, you try, but even if you think that you have succeeded, can you ever be really sure?

Some people with dogs like the one described use other humans as training props to socialize thier problem dog, and from what has been written here, it sounds like that is what the owner/handler of this dog did.  Piss poor judgement and decision.

Who, in the normal world, would want a dog that can not be petted?  Military, yes.  Police, perhaps.  Drug dealer, probably.  Sporting dog?  No way Jose.

Do right and fear no one.  I love you, will you marry me?

Sue, why is it necessary to go right on the attack to DRFN.He has not even commented of late and he post a very mild post by most means and you go after his leg. You are no worse than what you say he is when you act like this.

The subject:  I am sorry to hear about your mother being bit. I think everyone has a fear in the back of there head that their dog might accidentally bite someone at some time. We worry for the person if it's an accident and then of course our dog. There are nips, bites and then attacks. Very seldom do we hear of a dog just going for a person's neck unprovoked. Something is not right. Yes, we can all point fingers, but the point in the matter is that the dog bit a lady in the neck because she wanted to pet it. The neck. This is not something we should be blaming the victim about. Yea, she coulda woulda shoulda does no one anygood. Lesson learned for a few but it doesn't sound like that for the owner.
 

Take this as a cautionary tale, use common sense, don't pet dogs at club or let your dog be pet at club.  Club is for work and training not socializing.

The dog is 7 years old, at that age there is really not much you can do to change his ways.  Is it worth letting the dog live, if he gets ahold of a child, THE CHILD WILL DIE.  If that happened, and my mother didn't see to it that the dog was destroyed, not only does she have to live the rest of her life in fear, but she will know that she could have saved a child's life, and she didn't.  If it was the arm, fine.. that's one thing... but THE THROAT?  Think of a child, think of your child if you have any.  IS IT WORTH IT?

Honestly, do you think I should contact the regional director?

I was wrong, she wants the dog dead and wants people to back her up.  Sighh

I understand your anger.If it were my mother I would have shot the dog on the field.Does everyone feel better now?  

Sueinn,

Your inappropriate and very immature post are more breathe taking then my “suppose” ignorant post. I bet if this dog would have bitten your mother in the same area that it had bitten Silhouettes's mother you would have a different perception to the situation.

The laws doesn't care about your professional opinions on curing human aggression in dogs or your excuses as of the reasons why the dog attacked. Once a dog has bitten someone the owners are liable for the damages that the dog inflicted to the victim and the dog is then marked as “Dangerous dog”. The previous owners of this dog was smart enough to find a sucker to responsibly take this dog and they succeeded.

Here's copy of the Florida Statutes. I'm sure it's similar in other states as well.

“767.04 Dog owner's liability for damages to persons bitten.--The owner of any dog that bites any person while such person is on or in a public place, or lawfully on or in a private place, including the property of the owner of the dog, is liable for damages suffered by