German Shepherd dog

I'm back from the sieger show and see there's some discussion already about parts of the show. Things have been changing in this country and we see patterns developing. I'll be commenting on a few things I observed.  Here's a partial list:

Judges

Number of VA dogs

Protection work

Imports

Home bred dogs

Sportsmanship

Measurement

Progeny Groups

Universal Sieger

It's a busy weekend for me, so I'll add more later.

VA2 & VA6 earned their titles: See their videos. Those dogs were the saving grace in the VA line-up

Before I start with my impressions, I'd like to turn the clock back and set the stage of where the US was In General a few years ago. The top placing dogs were imports. Why?, we couldn't breed a good dog here it seemed. If we could we couldn't train it and show it. There were few if any progeny groups and the sieger show was a 'Dog on the day' competition. Let's see who sends what over from Germany to grab a VA spot on Sunday and ship it back to Germany Monday. The US was considered a place for dogs that couldn't make in Germany to be sold. Americans were looking to buy the next sieger and wondering which dog that placed better could pop up at the show. Dogs that didn't out inthe performance test were simply placed at the back of their ratings.

Fast forward to the present and things have changed. I'm hoping some light can be shed on the improvements that are being made and as I go through this process, use Germany and how the dogs are done there as the model. If the SV and the way dogs are done in Germany is not a good model for you. You can stop here and find a breed that suits you better as I assure you the German Shepherd is not the dog for you.

I'll start by setting the stage with the Judges of this years sieger show. For years there have been complaints about judges that do not favor or understand the working lines. They are not even looked at, are dismissed, when can we get a judge that understands both work and show. While we're at it we want judges that are impartial. Ones that don't sell dogs. We also need judges that judge at the world level so the direction of the breed remains the same here as it is in Germany.

Enter Wilfred Scheld and Klaus Gothe. Both have judged in the US are known to be working dog friendly. The UScA has heard the requests and done their best to eliminate the impression that the judges are anything but impartial.

I'll press on to the number of VA dogs.

Sheesh,,, 10 VA dogs. Isn't that too much? It's half the class for crying out loud. With 50 dogs entered, I can see maybe one or two, but 10??? Really,,, whats going on here. Are the dogs really that good???

Let's break it down. Start by looking at the results a few years ago. VA dogs that were high VA in one show and went middle V in local shows. There was no consistency, there were no progeny groups. It was a dog on the day crap shoot where many of the VA's were shipped in, given VA and shipped out never to father a litter in the US. Then came the bitching about Imports and the need to recognize the efforts of US breeders.

Look at the line up this year. All US based dogs in the VA line up. As the judge was explaining his decision where he placed the VA group, he remarked that both the dog and the progeny groups presented were factors he used in determining the final result.

This is the way things are done in Germany. It's a breed show where the dogs production is of extreme importance. With this type of judging we send a message to other countries; "We have good dogs and can breed good dogs. If you want to drop in and collect a VA spot, you better bring a group with you like Walter did."

With the dollar shrinking and the absence of imported males, we need to become breeders, look around and see what we can do with the top dogs we have here.

Isn't 10 too many?

Well let's see. The US is a big place. We have a few VA's this year in CA. One in CT, NC, VA, IL, TX, etc. In Germany, most all of the VA and High V dogs are accessable to the breeders as Germany's geography is not that big in comparison. If you lived in Kansas and wanted to follow the insight of the SV judges. What would you have to do to breed to a VA male? It seems like the US could use 50 VA dogs in comparison.

What about quality. It's about quality, forget numbers. 10 is too much!

Let's take a vote. who say's 4 is the right number?   I see some hands out there. Let's just say no more than 10 % of the class. OK , how do we do this? There were 7 previous VA dogs in the class at the sieger show. Lottery? Highest bidder? What about any new VA's do we wait until one dies before we replace it?

 Quality you ask? The VA7 male was SG17 and V29 at the sieger show in Germany. There are some excellent dogs in the VA line up this year.

Imports and American Bred dogs:

Does it take an Import to win? Isn't the quality better in Germany? The simple answer is yes.

What does that mean to me. If I have the best resources, enough money and am at the right place at the right time, I might get something better. If you do what then? You just bought super pup destined to be the next world champion. What will you do with it? How will you get it there? Can you even get it titled and into the working class?

Meanwhile 10 pups that are just as good go to pet homes in the US because someone  that wants to compete thinks they can get something better buying sight unseen on the internet.

Look around at the placings and quality of animals we have here. We are becoming breeders. We are learning and producing better each year. When you decide on a US dog, there's a good chance some support comes with it.

I'll share a story.

I get a call from a new person excited about the breed and doing their homework. They pick my brain, I'm sure others too. They go to see dogs that interest them. They  focus on the female  travel across the country  and buy a pup.  Research pays off. Pups a good pup.  They go to a regional show where the owner of the pups father handles the pup and takes time to explain about showing, what's involved, what's needed, how to get started. The pup is successful and the owners who bought it mainly for a pet are hooked. They cancel their travel plans and enter the pup in the sieger show. The next few weeks are spent getting the pup ready for the big event. This is their little boy going to their second show. They fly the pup to San Jose and spend a weekend participating. They are introduced to the fun and excitement that the breed has to offer. The owner of their puppy's father sets them up with a top handler. The pup performs flawlessly and places #2 in the country. This pup has a chance and the new owners are enjoying their US bred dog.

Think of  what support can mean and how the breed in this country can be better when efforts combine. Not too long ago this was uncommon. Breeders stuck to themselves and there was no cooperation. Look at the German example. There is no successful dog in Germany that started from a pup and achieved anything without the support of others. German Shepherds are a team sport. Think about that as you decide where to get your next dog.

This pup has a chance and the new owners are enjoying their US bred dog.

Another HUGE plus for these recently "hooked" enthusaists:  The owners of both the mother and the father, both based in the US, have and will turn upside down and backwards to help the novice owners achieve as much success as they and their dog can manage for years to come by directing them to good clubs, handlers, helpers, etc., advising them about anything and everything pertaining to the health, training, conditioning, etc., ... NURTURING them to insure they enjoy as much success as possible in the sport with their dog throughout the dog's career and for the entire life of the dog! (likely longer...)

Unless they purchased the dog from one of the few importers who really care about the sport in this country, the dogs they import and the people who buy them, had these people purchased the dog online directly from Germany, chances are they would be "on their own" from the minute the pup was dropped at Frankfurt Lufthafen. How different might their first experiences be in that case, and what are the chances they would continue on in the sport had they invested the time, effort and enthusiasm only to be disappointed all by themselves, no support from anyone, when their class concluded?

Just a point to ponder...

Sorry, we haven't come that far if we can't FOLLOW THE RULES!!!!!

If we had made true progress we would have dogs that had a pedigree filled with true "American bred" dogs and peppered with the occassional import. If we had made progress OUR Sieger show would be judged by OUR judges. Let's face it these national seiger shows using SV judges were created and continue for one purpose - To continue and further the exportation of the SV system under SV control which is designed to continue and further the wholesale exportation of German bred GSDs world wide. We are talking big business and heavy commercialization of the breed here.

A few years back the natives got restless because the awards always seemed to go to German bred and owned dogs . So as a sop a few VA's were given to German bred and American owned dogs. If  you look at the statistics above that's still pretty much were we are today. If you are still breeding F1 imports and not using your own stock you have made no real progress.

Finally I too will share a story.

I met a family at the show on Sunday. A nice family with several kids and a 5 month old GSD that they had bought from one of the successful "American Bred" kennels present at the show. This too was their first GSD. They were proud to tell me how the breeder had said the dog was show quality and they wanted to learn more about how things were done and wanted to know about training etc.  Nice Nice people. The bitch was a sweetie also - oh btw she was a longcoat.

TIG,

I guess the breeder neglected to tell them the fact that the bitch was a longcoat!

Universal Sieger trained and trialed by a handler? Pardon my French, that's complete BS and once again reflects that "money talks", IMO. Hell, any of my titled males could possibly be Universal Sieger if I had the money for a handler.

I agree with TIG regarding the definition of V and VA. IOW, a dog that goes VA in the United States should be able to do so in Germany.

The only dog of that quality that I've seen in recent years has been Bazi. I truly expect Bazi to go VA in Germany--maybe not this year--depends on how many titled dogs are in his Progeny Group.

He is of correct size and has an excellent work ethic--JMHO.

Dream on Dog 1. What you write is pure bunk. A dog who is SG 17 or V 29 in Germany is certainly not what I consider a high placement in Germany and many of those dogs too fade into the sunset and many are sold to third world countries. It is a no brainer that one can often makes a higher place in a much smaller pond. And yes, if one can rent a handler who knows the tricks and the judges and can push past people, all the better. In the puppy classes, as we all know, placement means nothing unless it is a P or LP. Most of the time those VP pups also fade into the sunset and are sold to the first sucker who comes along.

This was a small show compared to the BSZS. And the high percentage of VAs awarded, had they been justified, would have been fine. There is no rule about how many VAs or Vs should be awarded. But the sheer lack of numbers being presented in this show would tell even a simpleton that something is not quite right when almost 40% of the females are VA and higher yet with the males. If they were truly of all around high calibre that would be one thing.  Most of the dogs shown would never even get to the top 50 in Germany. Why? Because for one thing,  the number of dogs shown is much, much higher and yes, because of politics there as well. Even those Americans who pay large sums of money to German handlers in the BSZS find their dog in the lower rings. 

This SS, like most US Sieger Shows happened in a small pond, despite the fact that we are a huge country. What the heck does that have to do with anything? Nothing. We simply do not have the numbers of GSDs involved in SchH and show and never, ever will. 

TIG has pointed out very clearly serious flaws in your quasi statistical analysis. Talking about how far we have come in 10 years is a joke. For what it is worth, I frankly don't care if a dog was bred in Germany, the US or on Mars. I want to see the rules followed, dogs not slinking to the helper on their bellies, dogs with some fire in their bite work, some correct heeling, "aus" meaning "aus",  dogs not coming off the sleeve, the show judge measuring height, (not committee members), dogs not running from the helper, dogs heeling the correct distance (there is a correct required distance that in my events has always been measured out by our judges) etc. etc. etc. I also want to see the best judges and too often we are not seeing that. And by this I do NOT mean that the judges should be our organizational judges. Had they the qualifications, it would be one thing, but with one exception, they do not. 

Dog are not cars and using that analogy is silly. And while people can think of and prefer a variety of qualities in coat, color, minor differences in conformation etc., there should be and is one single standard for the breed and one set of rules. Rationalizing it all away to suit ones own purposes serves no purpose but to maintain the status quo. If what you want is really so different than what those of us want who say the bite work was, for the most part, pathetic, then we are really in serious trouble. But I suppose there is a different perspective from one who does little training and has to send a dog out for training.

There are a lot of problems that honest owners/handlers face when trying to compete in this sport. There are not enough clubs in many areas. There certainly is a critical lack of highly skilled helpers, including in my area. Owner/handlers often only want to do the least amount of work with their dog that they can get away with because it is so time consuming to really learn to train your own dog. Traveling to distant shows is expensive, just as is participating in the sport in general. It is tough, tough, tough to do this and I don't doubt this. 

But those are REAL difficulties and they should in no way prevent us from seeing that there are some very serious problems and some ser

Dog1: Well  Louise, since someone else titled your dog I guess we're in the same boat.....

Well, let me ask you how many dogs you have schutzhund titled? Oh, I thought so. I did title Mr. Nimo's grandsire to SchH3 and to an AKC CD and CDX (at nearly 9 years of age).

At least, I put the AD and a thorough foundation training (protection, tracking, obedience--including jumping and the dumbbell) on Nimo and Zeek. Otherwise, how could Heidi have titled them faster than she has any other male dogs?? I also trained and handled Nimo for his BS for life (you were there and saw it) and for 3 different "sieger show" performance tests.

I chose not to title the younger dogs myself because training/titling at local clubs was unreliable. I can't tell you how many clubs (where I was a member) formed splinter groups or altogether disbanded. I didn't want my younger boys to be 8 years old when they finished their titles.

Dog1: I'm struggling a little to see why it's BS when someone wants to advance their dog beyond their handling abilities.

Pardon me--I don't think so. When I trained and handled the grandsire in his SchH2, he had the highest combined score as well as the highest scores in tracking and protection. Not too shabby for an 8-year-old dog with his "mom" who was past 60.

I handled and trained several dogs (2 of which were breed champions) to AKC UD's and UDT's. My first bitch completed her AKC UD when she was only 13 months old. My Ch Tucker Hill's Oracle UDT was twice highest scoring champion at GSDCA National Specialty shows and won the Dog World Magazine award for completing one title in 3 straight trials with all scores above 195 (out of a possible 200).

I trained and handled my last AKC female to her Herding Started title (she was the first GSD in the country so titled) and to one high scoring dog in herding trial. She also completed the equivalent of an HGH when she was 9 years old.

IOW, although not a born athlete, I have many decades of successfully titling and handling dogs.

Trust me, if your dog has a "bought" Universal Sieger title, neither you nor the dog will be taken seriously.

However, why not have the courage

Because, the Universal Sieger title CAN be bought - it's been proven every year in the past few at least - and it's so much easier that way!  And just as prestigious as earning it yourself (you and your dog)!  (??)  Right?

molly

Blitzen! thank you! that might be my knew bumper sticker "Take back your sport"!!!

I am amazed that ANYONE would try to explain or excuse the travesty that occurred at the SS.

Any dog that has been given the HONOR of EXCELLENT SELECT at a sieger show should have been able to Heel to the attack out of the blind, not come off the sleeve on a stick hit, or a threat of a stick hit, and the dog should OUT cleanly!  There was a lack of courage at that performance test, just like there has been in years past. I am not just talking about the lack of courage in the dogs presented, I am talking a lack of courage on the part of the UScA officials! 

Excellent Select is NO LONGER AN HONOR. It is a joke!  Sadly, the whole world is laughing at what WE as a membership of UScA have allowed. It is disgusting!

Wow, I can't believe Molly as a menber and representative of the UScA organization that's hosting not only the Nationals (which is the event that will determine the Universal Sieger) and the World Schutzhund Championship would go on an International forum and suggest the UScA organization is corrupt and placings can be bought It just blows me away. That's all I say on that subject.

Louise. No one doubts your experience. I will not be trialing my dog myself because he's competing against the same top trainer and handler that you paid to title your dog. As I said before, this is a National event, he deserves better than me. It's about the dog.

Hodie,

I know you are passionate about your dogs and your female had a super performance in Carson City. I'm not convinced SG17 and V29 are not regarded as high places at the German Sieger show. There are many breeders around the world that would be thrilled to make such a place. I'm not sure I agree with your statement that most of the VA dogs at this years UScA sieger show would not make top 50 in Germany when actually 'most of those that were shown there have. Bear in mind progeny has an impact on the VA positions too. So on many respectswith regard to conformation events, let's agree to disagree.

I don't want to turn this into a Randy smashing, but I AM curious Randy as to whether you have titled a dog and if so, how long it took you? Where was the trial and who was the judge? As we all know, many of the dogs being shown have been titled quickly and trained poorly to boot (because quick training is NOT good training).  If this was the case with any dog vying for Universal Sieger, despite the fact that he must compete to qualify (and events are running out), I don't think the dog has a prayer. I know how long it takes to bring even a really well trained dog back up to snuff after a long layoff. Yes, this Universal Sieger is a good marketing ploy and sadly, there are plenty of uninformed people who will buy it. So often, they only want a dog who looks nice at their side. And like too many involved in the breed, to hell with whether the dog really is a good representative of the breed.

As for Louise, her credentials speak for themselves. One need not agree with her all the time, or even like her, but one cannot say she has not walked the walk on many a street. She has done more with her dogs than most here ever will accomplish. And yes, she promotes her dogs but no less so than many whose dogs are not particularly deserving of promotion. She is older. Randy, you are what age? Mid 40s? Early 50s? Why can't you get out there and struggle learning to handle and train for trialwork? Because you choose not to do so and would rather buy your way along. That is your choice and I do not even begrudge you or anyone that. But don't try to tell us the baloney you wrote above and justify poor work.

I am 61 and have a torn ankle tendon and am in serious and constant pain. But by golly, I am running my business AND training my dogs (and several others) and yes, it is costing me a fortune to bring in competent helpers. But without this, why even bother doing any of it? Anyone with enough money can buy anything, including a good looking dog. At least, if one wants to be taken seriously, have the smarts to hire the best trainers and train all the time so when you are thinking of declaring for Universal Sieger we are not all spilling our Gatorade as we laugh at reading that.

I wouldn't count on the US title being bought this year. Several of the dogs entered are very good in the work and quite well trained. Most of the owners/ handlers are very serious American, or, in one case Canadian residents who are very serious about training for performance competition.

Sure a few will not compete to the National level for any number of reasons. A lot will depend on the foundation training the entrants recieved as young dogs, wherever that may have been, and a lot will depend the dogs' strength of temperament, its inherent, genetic ability to flourish under the pressure needed to achieve the level of training necessary for a National performance event,  typically judged far more stingently than a club or regional trial, as it should be. Attention too must be paid to conditioning dogs who may be in top shape to gait 20 miles in the ring, but may need further conditioning/muscle development for speed and clearing a hurdle they may not have seen in awhile,  carefully done as to avoid injury to the dogs, while still maintaining top show condition. I'm thinking beautiful gaiting isn't going to get anybody full points in the blind search and smacking a knee into the hurdle even once could end  the dog's career...

Its no secret that most show dogs are rushed to earn the SchH3 at or near their second birthday, often just in time for the next Sieger show, well before the dogs have atttained physical and psychological maturity, and often long before it became clear the dog might achieve a high level of success in the show ring. I am sad when I think of how many potentially good young dogs are ruined forever that way every year, but heartened to know that at least some people have learned from disappointments suffered later when the price for all that pressure was paid in spades. I admit to having learned the lesson the hard way in the 90's when my promising young dog handed me a disappointing Vorhanden in Dallas, never to recover from the trauma of  "losing the fight."

The good news for everyone planning to enter the Nationals this fall is that the event is  6 mos. away. The Nov. date allows ample time for  "adjustments" to conditioning for trial exercises and improvements in performance that may or may not have been considered worthwhile when the dogs originally earned their early titles. More good news: the upcoming season offers a number of club and regional trial opportunities at which to earn qualifying scores on the first try, and/or reassessing /fine-tuning training & conditioning strategies should a trial performance be deemed, shall we say "less than optimum" first time out ...and I don't want to hear any of the self-professed "working dog people" try to tell me "good working dogs" never need more than one try to earn the 270 qualifying score for the Nationals. My old club in CA hosted several "Last Chance" trials on the final weekends before entries for Nationals closed. Those trials were always FULL of "good working dogs" and well-respected handlers that had failed  to earn qualifying scores (if not failed a few trials completely) despite numerous attempts in the preceeding months (or years!) The Bewertinsliste was long and distinquished, believe me!

SS

I am not getting into this kind of discussion as it does not lead to anything. We are all stuck on our opinions and views, and that is that.

The only thing I want to add is to Hodie! Hodie, I always respect your views and level headed opinions. However, I am very offended with your statement that a dog who is SG 17 or V 29 in Germany is certainly not what I consider a high placement in Germany.  (direct quote from your earlier post). That is downright insulting to anybody who has shown their dogs over there. Do you have any idea how much work and financial commitment goes into that? Have you ever shown a dog at the German Sieger Show? Have you even gone as a visitor? Well, I have. And I can tell you that I was very proud of my Gina placing SG-53, which was in the first (or best) ring of the whole class. I have owned dogs which have placed SG-24 and SG-47 before, but it is nothing like seeing your own homebred dog competing. Also, any dog which places SG or V respectively and especially among the first onehundred is a top dog. People who know me know that I like both, showlines and workinglines. I also appreciate and respect performances in all events. What just gets me every time is the complaints I read and hear from people who have nothing to add than so-called good advise and lots of negative critic (and that is directed to nobody particular but if the shoe fits, please wear it). As to Dog 1 getting a handler for his Ronaldo to show him to his potential: I will be standing there cheering them on, why not!!!!! It is done in Germany all the time and nobody complaints about it there. It is a form of sport. Who do you think handled all these great Salztalblick dogs for example? The breeder and/or owner? Ha ha! There are quite a few numbers of professional handlers there. As a matter of fact, I got a few offers from a couple of them already to take my black Paska-son in (which I declined). But I do send my dogs to Germany as well. Why should they rot in my kennel? Why do I even breed? Currently, I have 3 dogs in Germany and have plans for 3 more to go by fall. Yes, it costs a fortune, but this is my hobby, period. And to anybody who thinks that a Universal Sieger title can be bought: Could you elaborate further? I am geniunely interested in how that is done? Do you try to bribe the judge? Or maybe the whole organization? No? When how do you do it?

Ok, I am done ranting.

Chris

Pia, we posted at the same time! Super statement!

Chris

OK Randy, please correct me then. Give me the names of the dogs who placed VA here in this SS and give me their placement in the BSZS this past year. You may have access to that information more quickly than I and if you can demonstrate I am wrong, I will certainly admit to that.

But, no, I do not consider SG 17 or V 29 a particularly high placement. IF and I mean IF I could afford to buy a dog who had placed high, I would first be looking at video of its work, or better in person, and I would be looking for a dog who placed in the top 10. To me, that is a high placement. After that, at least in my eye, quality rapidly falls off.

None the less, we all also know that the bite work at the BSZS has also been a huge issue and that many people are complaining and working to fix this too.

We need a SS here that touts the best dogs. That means they are, at the very least, competent workers in the protection routine. We saw with our own eyes for years now that this is simply not the case. We need more working line dogs who are sound in structure. And we need one tight and high standard for the judge to follow in judging the protection routine. Dogs are measured for height according to the rule by the JUDGE and while we are at it, let's consider how we might get more and more Americans handling the dogs who are American.

I really do NOT have an issue with others training dogs or even showing dogs for people. God knows I am too fat, to injured and too old to show my own dogs or even do a competent second handling. I will continue to train my own dogs until I cannot do so, and that may happen sooner than later. So I am not going to fault someone for finding other ways to train, in either venue. I just want to see, at the very least, competency in the dogs shown in either venue.

Pia, you and your female were the last ones who achieved the Universal Seiger title legitimately.  Congratulations for that, it's something to be very proud of.  The others, not so much.

Molly , I still don't know why you would say the others did not  and if so  could you  explain ?? 

I am very proud of the achievement   Thanks . Hopeing to repeat with a son of hers in a few years :)

I look at it in a different angle if  I had a dog esspecially out of my breeding program  that could make the world level yet I could NOT bring the dog to that level  for whatever reason but wanted it for the dog I would not hesitate to turn the dog over to the hanler/trainer that could .    I would not call that a  bought ticket to the WUSV . I would call it smart mangement  of an excellent dog .

I have done this sport for the past 20 years or so , all of my first dogs had been raised trained and titled by me . You  have done it and it is extreme time consuming  and the accomplishment is the greatest  :) 

 At present I have some excellent dogs that must take the training / trialing field    Eon, Britt, Ink , Evan . I rendered Britt ( 2 years )to my friend  for training and titles , Ink ( 6 months )is planned to go to germany to my friend for her titles , Evan 1 year old I am training   Eon is my competition dog and much time goes into him  in the persueing of  at least getting a seat one year at the FCI world team. ( Well thats the goal anyway :)  Way to many young  dogs for one handler to train  and  way to good to sell  . The future of my breeding program are in those young untitled dogs  so to insure that future  I must bow down to my limitation of time and render the dogs for their titles .    Calling  them later bought titles   I guess is a personal way of looking at it.

Pia

It does NOT matter HOW the title was gained, as long as the work was done and it was not done quickly. One need not be a training expert to know that quick training, be it with humans or dogs, does not really encompass true learning and training.

I agree, if and when I had a dog who I could not train to its top level, then I might consider paying someone to train, as some have done with me. That is NOT the issue. The issue is the QUALITY of the training as evidenced, in this instance, by the poor work at the SS. (And by the way, a national level competitor told me recently that he witnessed some incredibly poor performances in a recent national level event. He was sick over the lack of training for the dogs.

Sure, the dogs shown in the SS are relatively small group compared to the country. But it does highlight what seems to be a real and pervasive problem. The dogs are NOT getting enough training, or are getting poor training or they are, in some measure deficient in temperament and abilities, even if nice looking. 

Kennel blindness extends to not being able to see ones' dog who is pleasing to the eye may not, in fact, have what it takes to do good work. It also extends to seeing that one's dog who is an outstanding worker and solid V rated dog cannot produce good ears.

Admittedly, some set the bar for performance too high. I am not asking for dogs to go flying like we see in the Israeldogs.com videos and which turn my stomach for the injuries these dogs will eventually suffer. Nor am I asking for 100s in scores or anything of the kind. But there is a level of competency that MUST be and should be displayed. Further, when that is NOT demonstrated, the judge MUST have the courage and ability to see it is not there and so judge. We ALL know or should know what is required and we just do not see that here, but rarely.

How do we fix it? It cannot be fixed until acknowledged and that must happen at all levels.

 Chris, 

I did not see your earlier post. Of course, I certainly know how much work, money, time and effort goes into taking a dog to any show, including Germany. Of course I know that. And I applaud yours or anyone else's efforts to do so. However, for what it is worth, in my own system of ranking, no, I do NOT consider a dog a top dog just because it got any particular ranking. Frankly, if the dog was a VA and was in a very small class as is the case often in Canada, for example, I am not terribly impressed based ONLY on that placement. I look for other things besides that. In fact, because the system is so screwed up in my opinion, and working ability is NOT counted as it should be, I would much rather take and perhaps buy a lower ranking dog in conformation IF I saw proof that it has the working ability.

So if you want to be insulted, well, I suppose you can be. But my comments were not directed towards insulting anyone, least of all you. I am trying to point out that working ability is lacking in many of the top ranked conformation dogs. That is a FACT and the proof is given once again in this most recent SS. HEll, I should know. I got last place V rating with my female several years ago, but damn it, she was one of the very best workers and, if all was laid out, I bet was probably the only really seriously trained SchH3 there.                     

For what it is worth, I am not competing with you or anyone else. I compete within myself. I know a V rated dog when I see it, and I know a dog who is a well trained dog and one who can do the work. But I am saying and supporting those who say the current situation is unacceptable. It is also true in Germany and some of the best judges we have had here are also among those trying hard to fix it there. Unfortunately, change comes slowly and money only slows progress.

Having always been an owner-handler with my own dogs, I can't help but feel for those who did have HOT dogs at this show (or any other show where the judging is biased). IMO at least one HOT dog out performed all of the others who qualified but ended up with the same rating as those who didn't hold on to the sleeve or heeled on their bellies, etc.. I'd have to think that would be a big disappointment to many and could really turn off some who enjoy the sport. It could also eliminate many good dogs from the breeding pool.

A person who has actually accomplished something with their own dog/s will naturally be assigned a higher level of credibilty than one who has purchased dogs already titled or paid to have their dogs titled.

I guess all my years showing horses makes me more open to the idea of having a professional train and at time compete with an animal.  I'm not sure why that's such a big issue here.   If you can do it yourself, super, wonderful, more power to you, and I mean that, not being a smart ass.

To me the big issue should be the quality of the "protection"  work we all were able to observe thanks to lonewulf posting the videos.