German Shepherd dog

Well,  I have completely proven that they completely harvested data from pedigreedatabase.com.

I sent them an email requiring them to remove all pictures.   

Greedy,  they could have stopped at the pedigree data,  no, they had to go for the pictures as well,.  

Can't allow them to ruin 7 years of work behind this website.

Oli, you want I should send some of the Family to take care of them for you?

Actually Oli, if I remember correctly, you started this site in 1997, the same year I started my site.

That's pretty slimy. Are you filing a complaint with his/her host and the registrar?

Good idea, steal all the data and then try to make money on it by advertising on the very site data was stolen from.  Can anyone say "DIP"?  Complete idiot!!

They even stole pedigree information and pictures of my dog. I was quite shocked.

Hey Oli,

I don't know if is possible but maybe you can possibly develop a script where each time a member uploads a photo onto the database that it creates a watermark.

Maybe the price is less now.......

Oli, I am a user of both databases because I use them for different things. I obviously do not know the proof  you have and while it is possible some of the PDB data has been harvested I do not know that I would go so far as claiming "completely proven that they completely harvested data ". In my use I have found significant differences between the data available on the two databases. Just today I documented over a dozen differences. Some pedigrees available on PDB are not available there and vice versa. In some the difference is in the name and number of progeny. In some there is a difference in the lineage on the pedigrees. I have found errors in the data on both sites ( different errors)  . While you may share SOME data and pictures it is obvious to me that there are significant differences between the two databases. Two small examples for you - Hunter van heet Keeliehof  PDB shows 159 progeny  GSDdata shows 62     iwan heuske pdb 14 progeny gsddata 20

I also do not know the answer to the questions I am about to ask but I think they bear raising. Your copyright information page states the following "Almost all of the information (including images) is user submitted and a collective work of GSD enthusiasts all around the globe.  There is no possible way for pedigreedatabase.com to follow up on every submitted image or posted text.  (Note that as soon as the dog is registered in its respective Organization (AKC, FCI, WUSV, etc.) it (the organization) has full power over the pedigree information, not the breeder) " 1. If it is user submitted why does not the copyright lay with the user not PDB since you acknowledge no attempt to authenicate the data therefore have not changed it or purchased it? 2. You state the registry has "full power" over the pedigree information. Would this not also mean copyright? If it does has PDB requested or purchased the rights to publish something the registries have "full power" over?

I do not know what the law says about where the copyright lays with information which is posted to an "open" database. I suspect that it is obvious that PDB has a copyright to it's style and format but I believe that copyright in the underlying data might be much more difficult to prove. In the US you might want to look at the cases involving phone book data. Also re users who are upset that their photos ( w/o copyright info or protection on them) which they loaded to an OPEN database now exist elsewhere on the web, I suspect they would have a hard row to go to prove damage. Plus it seems to me that it's an either or situation. Either they have the copyright or PDB base does - can't be both and might be neither because of the open nature of the board.

PLEASE NOTE. I am not disregarding or dismissing the valuableness of the Pedigreedatabase. I thank you for it and all the hardwork you put into creating it and maintaining it. It is a wonderful wonderful tool that we have all acknowledged our thankfulness for and in the past a number of us have indicated a willingness to pay a subscription if the data were authenticated. It's usefulness is as much or more about how it lets us use the data as it is about the data itself. I am also not trying to answer the legal questions raised if some of the data has been "harvested" since I do not know those answers. I am just trying to point out that this appears to me to be much more complex than a simple copyright question.

Sunsilver to pinch the photos   on a right click disabled site all you need to do is press the print screen key on your keyboard usually at top near the f12 key and then paste into a photo editing programme or publisher , even some email composing programmes and crop down to the image alone :)

Just to show what i mean ... just taken from rin tin tins site

..

If someone wants to take your photos sadly there'snot much to stop them ..

Sunsilver - my point exactly.

My dogs are on there also...with the photo's that I posted to this site.

Marsha Seck

Both my boys are on the site too, im suprised, there lineage i nothing special and it was still taken.  It upsetting that i can't see all of the info on my own dogs without being a paying memeber.

VKFGSD

It's actually not quite that simple.  Compilations are protected and copyright is protected no matter what Internet users may say.  Photos are copyrighted by law the minute they are taken,.  Doesn't matter if you post it on the internet or not, the still holds.  This holds true for every single photograph not explicitly given to public domain.  Copyright holds.

Try using the logo of Mercedes Benz for financial purposes (freely available in the internet) and see where it gets you.

No,  My disclaimer asks the users to make sure they are or have permission from the copyright holder,  giving me a break due to the Millenium Act by Bill Clinton (I have to remove pictures if someone can prove they own copyright though).

But by stealing the pictures, they are clearly in the wrong and it wont even go to court, it's that a sure win.

I know that they probably mixed numerous data sources.  But I can prove that they at least used mine also,  (no matter any later differences,).   Compilation of data (even though individual data is free) is copyrighted.  Same laws here as apply to human heriditary data.

Though data is freely available doesn't mean its freely usable by any.  BIG distinction in law there.  And as soon as you try to make money on the stolen information/copyright your a sitting target in regards to the law.

I will sue and I will win,  my legal counsel have assured me of that,  probably wont get anything but a big legal bill and the closure of the site,  but I will make it happen.

Go get em Oli.  They have picture and pedigree of my dog there too which has only ever been posted to this site.

I guess since the information is freely available I do not perceive it as stolen. This is an open database that people have freely put  up information KNOWING it will be available to all on the web. Just saying if  I was on the jury I would not be sympathetic to such a claim. Even you said above " I probably wouldnt have done anything if had just been the pedigrees, those are open for all (at least as long as the dog is registered with..) "  He has not taken your style or formats AND  there are significant differences in the data between the sites. Granted individual photos may be a different issue but as I said if the copyright does not lie with you how can you enforce it? Plus if they are also available on a users home page and not protected there by copyright how does one not know whether they were mined from there and not the PDB?

I do believe in the U.S. re the compilation of public data (and info entered on an open site can be construed as public) the data is not protected tho the style and format may be (see phone book cases and private databases of U.S. public records WHICH ARE SOLD to the business and legal communities. Some of those databases where created by using robots and miners to harvest public data off the web)

A question if I may. You said  "Yeah i did open up schafer.is in 97,  but I didn't really open it up as a social entity until in 2001,  until then it was just me importing pictures and inserting pedigree data.  :)"  Where were you importing photos from and where do those copyrights lie? Perhaps for those items if you are the owner there would be an issue , IF there is no other source they could have been obtained from by gsddata.

Mercedes Benz  is a different scenario - not copyright. That is a trade name and trade logo - very different. The analogy there would be someone trying to use the Pedigreedatabase name and logo.

If what you say is true "Though data is freely available doesn't mean its freely usable by any.  BIG distinction in law there.  And as soon as you try to make money on the stolen information/copyright your a sitting target in regards to the law" it may still be a moot point since he/she has been offering free access to the site.

As I said I use both databases - for different purposes. I feel it would be a shame to destroy gsddata.com as it offers information formatted in a way not available here or anywhere else.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

That said,  My main goal will be now to have gsddata.com remove and delete beyond retrieval all images gotten from pedigreedatabase.com..   

If they won't do that,  I'll take the whole procedure to legal steps and get the whole site shut down, which will happen. 

Oh and on my dogs page, they removed the HD and ED. it was there before.

PS  The reason I raise the phone book cases is because unfortunately I am old enough to remember when we only had ONE phone book in this country AND remember when it was litigated. ATT did claim copyright and had posted copyright notices - to no avail. You can not copy style and format (that is what makes a compilation unique) but you can copy data.

Brittany - sign in and and you get the info. If you are not a registered user ( free by the way) you don't get it.  Whoops did I maybe just make an inadvertant funny.

well actually mr bicolor when i post pics on this database i might not want them posted here there and everywhere!!

oli has spent a long time and a hell of a lot of work setting this site up and i dont think its right and i hope he sues the ass of gsddata,

anyway gsd data looks rubish!!!

good luck oli

Yeah,  minor legal discussions going on,.  Which are fun, when in context.

I thought bicolors post was an uninformed 'smart-ass' remark that didn't deserve a response nor visibility

Oli, please keep us informed.  It's sad when some "Johnny come lately" tries to grab all your work and cash in on it.  Please keep us informed.  I think the laws are on your side just as you say.

Oli,

Did I touch a nerve????? As I said, you have the right to make money and pay for costs, even a profit. And if you feel that strongly about the issue,  get a lawyer and go to court rather than whine.

There's a photo of one of my dogs on there and I only posted it here.  If you do need proof of copyright let us know and we can validate that no permission was given.

Last time I checked US copyright law was like this.  For anything an author uniquely creates (photo, art or writing) that piece is automatically provided copyright under the law.  If  you sue someone for unlawful use (use without license ie infringement) and have registered it before the infringement, the infringer if found guilty pays your legal costs along with the damages which are automatically substantial.  If you didn't register your copyright then the infringer if he loses in court does not have to pay your legal expenses, just the damages (which are set at a high base level automatically).

Preston I personally think the application of intellectual property law is best left to the courts and lawyers because it goes well beyond the statement "that piece is automatically provided copyright ".  Providing copyright and applying and enforcing it are very different things. There are many requirements and exceptions and a fair body of case law about specific issues in IP. I also agree with the comment above that there are complexities to this situation that takes it out of "simple" application of copyright law.

Not being an intellectual property lawyer I do not know the definite answer but the law usually allows for patent and latent interpretations of language at issue. Patent meaning it is clear on the face of it.  The quote from above which comes from the U.S. copyright office ( google it ) appears very patent to me.  "Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U.S. origin"  If you can't get to court you can't get to damages. So this is NOT speaking to damages but rather to the right to even bring an action.

The point is that gsddata is making money from images and database information which they didn't create, purchase for resale, or own. I do not know whether a dog's pedigree is in the public domain. I do know that the photo of my dog isn't. I took it, I own it, and until someone asks permission to use it, it's mine. Since my username is associated with the photo on PDB it's not hard to ask permission. Not doing so is copyright violation, and charging a fee for full access to the information without paying me a royalty is theft.

Speaknow, please don't hijack this thread with a complaint about a deleted post in another thread.

My girl is on there also. and while I have posted pictures of her on this site, and on another GSD board, I really don't like the fact that somebody took it upon themselves to post her picture. It would have nice if I was asked first. I have never heard of that website till now so I KNOW I DIDN'T post her picture.

Oli, go after them, man. The web-enabled harvesting of online databases is nothing new and has been done to other types of informative websites, and always for the financial gain of the harvester. That is where it crosses the line of ethics. I remember that particular website when I saw it quite some time ago, and thought to myself that much of the data there came from this pedigree database as well as the files of the S.V., et al. The S.V. files are not public, but all one has to do is buy the S.V. Genetics CD-ROM as well as others thay offer and parse the data contained there.

We engineers often share and swap files to each make our lives a bit easier and to maintain some camaderie in our profession. For example, one can go to my website and find a lot of CADD files that are available for download. They are there to share with the engineering community as I need to do my part when it comes to shared information. Those files (and hundreds more that are not there) are solely my creation.

If another engineer or engineering student downloads one of the files and uses the information to assist him with part of a design problem; then that is the intent of me making the files available. If he makes money from his final design (direct sale or continued employment) then that also is fine. But, if an individual or entity decides to download my files (or another engineer's files) and offer them for sale, then a serious line is crossed. Can I prove they are mine? Yes I can as they each have a digital signature. And of course that digital signature can be changed if someone wants to go to that much trouble.

It reminds me of drafting a research paper from many sources of information and using that information in its original form. That is an acceptable practice, provided that permission to use the information was granted and due credit to the source(s) is published. It is really just a matter of ethics combined with the interpretation and vagaries of the applicable law.

Copyright can be a sticky subject when applied to the content of websites due to the easy access across national and international boundaries where differing legal statutes apply. It is certainly best to not "borrow" someone else's work and then attempt to use it for your own gain/notoriety unless one is prepared for a lot of legal drama and expense. Can one prove they had a legal "right" to harvest data and use it for their own gain? I guess they could if they can get the members of an applicable court of law on their side. But, there exists the challenge for defense of one's actions.

Oli, many of us know that your website was the first of its kind to offer the type of information contained. I do remember when it was titled "Gunnarsholt's Kennel" at an address of Schaefer.is and there was nothing else out there in cyber land that resembled it. It is still the website of reference for so many people, practically the accepted "Bible" of information for the GSD world. Again, I wish you the best in your pursuit of these "people" (I have other words for them-but it is best to not use them!) and hope that you can close their website unless they agree to compensate you.

Best Regards, & Good Luck,

Bob-O

Ah, I just made a peek at the offending website and pictures of my dogs are there as well. This is the same website that appeared a couple of years ago, was suddenly placed for sale, and then "poof!" vanished from the world-wide web. I do remember the owners of the website suddenly publishing various statements on the site to imply they were doing nothing wrong with the data they used. Hmmm....

Best Regards,

Bob-O

Has anyone that has e-mailed professional heard back from him as to when he will remove the dogs he had no permission to post?

They took my boy's photo also and it was from here.;  Not only that, they scrunched it up and it looks like he has a huge scrunched up head and very little body..............

Two of MY photos that I posted on here are on the other site without my permission.

I did send an email, stating to remove them.  Next is notifying hosting company.  And next step, which I have not done in the past, but will do in the future - intellectual property lawyer.

All three of mine are up there, where I had only registered and posted pictures of them on this website.  Although I noticed that my female is in there twice with different registration numbers.  I have not compared to see what exactly they are using there.  I also noticed that her ZW was posted, which means they went to the SV website to harvest that.  I know that's public information there. 

Yeah, 5 of my GSDs are on there, and I know I didn't go put the info there, let alone their pics. I put them here. Surprisingly enough, not all of my GSDs info has been taken, tho (I have others w/very noteworthy pedigrees but they didn't get taken). Hm.

Didn't someone have a thread here earlier in the year talking about this www.gsddata.com being ANOTHER good place to find info and pedigrees, etc.? Seems like I recall it, but can't remember who said it. It was when someone asked about a database for health certification stuff being posted online.

It's a shame at how people can find and do just about anything to make a $ or to make themselves look like something they clearly are NOT (and never will be, in my book). People will step on others, taking advantage of other people's friendship & kindness and then just walking away when they KNOW they owe BIG-TIME, or just outright steal someone else's work, claim its their own, and act like they've done nothing wrong! Why can't people just do things legitimately and be done with it? Is it THAT hard?! There should be pride in integrity, honesty and doing a good job with what you have to do with-NOT by taking what someone else has and parading it like its your own work and thus making yourself nothing but a thief and liar. And it seems in my opinion our breed world is already overflowing with such garbage as is!

I'm sorry this has happened, Oli, and I hope you can get it resolved. Thank you for the GSD Pedigree Database Website!

Just checked the site and Both my dogs are on there to.

Everyone, I just received an e-mailed reply from "Kees" and here is what he/she/it had to say about my inquiry:

Clown...........

Bob-O

Yeah, really. Clown.

WE don't have to prove copyright ownership. THEY have to prove permissions granted to use the material.

We took the photos, the original digital files are on our machines, EXIF data exists as do date and time stamps on the original files.

Let THEM bring forth whatever it is they have.

Does kee's own his server, has anyone tried to find out?  Has anyone already been in touch with the server?

Does anyone have enough info to go to the U.S. Attorney General or his state AG ?