German Shepherd dog

all I can say is WOW, #46 came off the sleeve and got an "a" and went VA1 and the way the poor dog dropped to the ground when told to fuss, soooooooooooooooooooo sad

Super, Ravi! I wish that you would upload your videos of the females--even if you did run out of tape.

In order to refresh my memory, I just watched the official DVD of the 2005 USA Sieger Show in Carson City. At the time, I thought some of those performances were truly appalling. However, they look quite polished when compaired to Ravi's videos taken this year.

Ditto, Chuck, I thought there were some damned big dogs on those videos. One in particular looked like a small pony !!!

In this instance, don't blame the crappy dogs, the breeders, the handlers, the trainers, or the SV breed judges. At the risk of "shooting myself in the foot", I believe that the buck should stop with USCA DOJ Mark P. who has the sole responsibility for judging the all of the performance tests. I said the same thing 3 years ago on the USA-GSD list.

While Mark is known and respected for having a "sharp pencil" in an actual trial venue, I don't know what comes over him at a Sieger Show. Is he afraid that judging honestly will discourage entries in a show that already has a reduced entry.

USCA is financially dependent on show people--who breed and register more dogs and litters than the folks with working lines. A couple of years back, in the USA Magazine, John Henkel (before his club's suspension) said that his club (hosting the USA Sieger Show at the time) would donate any SS profits toward the costs involved in hosting the 2008 WUSV competition in the United States.

People with show lines are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to USCA local clubs---where they are often not made to feel welcome. How the hell are they to title their dogs given these conditions? No wonder their dogs are poorly trained. The breeders manage to get their dogs titled and breed surveyed by starting WDA clubs and/or sending their dogs to Germany to be titled in a timely fashion.

No, don't assume that every SL dog is a POS when it comes to working ability. I don't believe for a minute that all SL dogs are genetically weak. How do you explain the fact that I have been in the breed since 3/64 and have always had SL who have been able to work?? I can't be the Lone Ranger. Even my old AKC champion littermates had UD and UDT titles.

OTH, big name SL breeders have little incentive to breed and develop top working dogs because the average pet puppy buyer hasn't a clue what to do with a dog with drive. OTH, ask some of the lesser-known "hobby breeders" how successful they are in selling their pups (sired by non-flavor-of-the-month, non-VA males--such as mine) to homes where they will be trained and titled.

KCzaja: Louise, let me buy you a cup of coffee at the NASS this year, please.

Thanks--you will not see me at NASS 2008--if ever. Hell, I didn't even bother going to SJ this weekend.

You bred you female to a couple of SL studs that you hoped would complement her. OTH, the big name kennels don't care about genetic diversity--only about having an impressive SS Progeny Group. So, in order to accomplish this end, they breed everything with the requisite orofice to their own "in-house" stud--never to a stud owned by the competition. Will they ever breed to one of my lowly SL studs that can really do the work? Absolutely--when pigs fly!

#45 and #46 went out of the sleeve and bot made it as VA's

All you need to do is to look at the catalogs from the Sieger and NASS and note the DOB's, the breeders, the the dogs that are siring all these weak dogs. It's not rocket science to see where they are all coming from. According only to the dogs that were exhibited at the US Sieger, some big name breeders have many litters every year, some sired by the same male; and those are just the litters that were represented at that one show.  

KCzaja, in most breeds informed buyers would be begging for one of your dogs. GSD people seem to have a different set of values and standards for their breeding decisions and buying choices than do those in most other breeds. Frankly, I don't get any of it and I suppose the operative word is "informed"?

Good post, Louise!!

Another thing to ponder - how many of the insufficient performances are the result of poor breeding and how many due to poor handling and/or training. A few of these dogs looked as if they were in fear of making a mistake and others looked as if they were not ready for that ring. Lack of attention to the handler and forging while heeling generally indicates a dog that is in need of more training in the OB ring. Is that also true in the protection ring?

Oh, my god!  If some of those VA performances are TSB, I'm sure glad I don't bother to even go to these shows anymore.

I've only watched #45-#47.  Those dogs and handlers were in such disarray.  That one handler put more pressure on his dog than the helper ever did! 

If that's a VA rated according to UScA, I'll take an ugly-ass jackal working line anyday.  I'll even take a showline, just prove to me it can work well, hard, and seriously; herd; and be stable around kids, crowds, and noisy situations.  I want a true GSD, not a points dog, not a pretty Barbie dog, just a good looking GSD with good working structure with impeccable temperament, and real yet CONTROLLED aggression, lots of confidence and solid nerve, one that can live with the family as a cherished family member, one that I can take to herding, agility, and schutzhund one day and take him to a block party the next day, and if bred, one that produces the same or better.  Of course, it's gotta be healthy and should have an iron stomach!  That's a VA dog, not what was in the video and not the fabled "maneaters" that'll go up the leash if you look at them funny.

But of course, what do I know.  I just have my wacky GSD mix to give me little tastes of awesome GSD traits (and not-so-awesome ones).

In defence of all performance and show judges:

The judge can only judge what he sees on that particular day. He/she cannot consider any prior knowledge, prior performances, etc., ON THAT DAY.  If/when the helper's back happens to be between him/her and the dog, blocking his/her view for those few crutialseconds, or the branches of the shading trees part just long enough to let the sun in his/her eyes, or someone walks in front of him at just the wrong moment... whatever... he still can only judge what he actually saw. Happens in trials all the time, usually to our benefit, but occasionally not. With perhaps 80-100 dogs to rate in a very short period of time, (2+ times that many at the BSZS!) there's no time and it wouldn't be correct anyway to consult with the helper after each performance, and there's no "doing it over"  because he/she didn't get a good view the first time. Its not like some other sports,  horse racing for instance, where 3 stewards have time to watch the instant re-play and consult with fellow stewards for a quorum before rendering a decison. Would that they could! The protection evaluation for so many dogs might take 2 whole days if that were the case.

Sure, there are always going to be disagreements on any/every judge's call, especially at a Sieger Show, where a pot-load of money has been spent to aquire, train, promote and transport dogs, handlers, teams, etc. and dogs' whole careers are made or broken on 5 min. of performance. But IMO the ratings given are 98-99% correct and accurate most of the time. Not really a bad average unless your dog, or a dog that went on to place towards the top of the class, is one of the 2-4, out of say 80 dogs evaluated that day, that some people feel should have done better or worse.

I know I sure wouldn't want to be in the protection judge's position at such a high-emotion event as a Sieger show! Its a lot easier to criticise the person in the "hot seat" than it is to be that person. The good news is that unless this is the last event prior to retirement, we usually get another chance to see the dog again, and hopefully the dog gets another chance to demonstrate what its really made of, good, bad or otherwise.

Sometimes you eat the bear...

SS

How ironic that I left the V out of my post!

This didn't look good at all. I only watched #45-47 videos though. I realise alot can come into play with the training etc. but the dogs going to the Seiger show should be the cream of the crop and trained well. Why did #45 not get any stick hits? I felt bad for #46, he was really worried where the stick hits might come from!

Shelley Strohl--why the hell are you defending incompetence on the part of the judge--whose job is not to alienate SL breeders who pay an inordinate number of fees and manage to keep the coffers of USCA full and solvent?

If the judge can't "see", perhaps we need to have a panel of 3 judges (stationed where they all have a view) to confer and evaluate the performance tests (sort of like the OFA).

Comparing the judging at a tiny USCA SS with the BSZS is like comparing apples and oranges--JMHO.

With all of these big name kennels (or any kennel breeding 6 or more litters a year), it's all about $$$$. VA placements of "in-house" studs is determined by their respective (laughable?) Progeny Groups. It has nothing to do with the sport, a love for the GSD breed, or a sincere desire to improve the breed with genetic diversity.

If you take a smaller organization such as the WDA, even the some of the new officers are using their elective and appointive positions to meet self-serving ends (to peddle puppies, stud dogs, create new websites/businesses for hawking dog paraphernalia and merchandise).

vonwaldhimmel, tell it like it is about the poor sportsmanship within the show ring. IOW, the male handler who butted in front of your daughter Hailey is a German who resides in Canada: Thomas Schoder (handling Odin).

Finally, folks, don't be fooled that the dogs which break on the free-heeling to the attack blind are merely being disobedient. Even this tactic has a calculated motive--it gives the dog a chance to see the helper and to know where he will be when he finally attacks out of the blind. Otherwise, when the dogs sees the helper, it may scare the piss out of him and cause him to run (3 times!) to pee on a tree.

Hear Hear Louise. You are so right.  One handler in particular ran that little scenario of having the dog "escape" the heel to run by the blind on EVERY single dog he had FOR TWO OF THE THREE "TRIES".(and yet only 1 or 2 managed to pass).

I too think perhaps we need 3 judges tho only one would do if that one had the balls to call a spade a spade. I also think they need to start out the protection work with a non entered dog that is known to do a  pronouced routine (i.e. a working dog) and say this is what a pronouced routine is - anything less will get and A or M. Shelley please tell me you can NOT possibly believe 98% of those ratings were deserved. LESS THAN ONE HANDFUL OF DOGS REMOTELY DESERVED A PRONOUCED THIS WEEKEND. At absolutely best most of those given a TSB "a" desired a sufficient and a lot did not even deserve that.  What I saw was positively appalling. As a friend said to me - do they really not know what they are seeing( shouldn't be true ofthe "director of judges") or do they really not give a d--. I think it's the latter.

What I also saw was a majority of dogs with either NO training or really really bad abusive training. You would think since this is the big shebang for the year that they might invest in a little training. But the bottom line was not the training or lack thereof - it was the lack of strength and character in the dogs.  I have not been able to view the videos but I wonder if they are sufficient to show the small head duck almost every dog had before any bite - an avoidance behavior saying I really don't want to be doing this but if I don't something really bad wil happen to me.

Can someone also explain to me how a dog who SUPPOSEDLY has a SchH 2 or 3 has NO recognition of what a blind and/or helper means? Several dogs exhibited this behavior. Now all I know is after her very first B & H in the blind, my dog had that particular association fixed in her brain and it doesn't matter where the blind OR helper is, she knows the games afoot.

Re USA dependence on the show people and the sieger show for money ( an argument I heard this weekend on the grounds) two things. 1. Does not all the money basically go back to the sieger show and the fake registery and therefore adds nothing of real value to USCA?  2. At what price do you sell your soul - or the essence of your breed?

Finally for those who blame the helper (in the herding world these same people blame bad sheep - yeah right). This was a world class helper. Did he step on a few dogs - yes. Should that have made a difference - no. Also I was trying to figure out why he stepped on them because this is NOT something that is normal for him. What I realized is that he is used to working dogs that actually engage and the drive is a dance between the helper and the dog with the dog driving the helper as much as the helper drives the dog. Here with the few that managed to hang on for dear life - they hung there like a 100 pound sack of potatoes,inert and lifeless and when he tried to drive them they didn't have the sense OR courage to fight back and get out of his way so yeah he stepped on them.

By the way - please note I would NOT want this done - but why don't we present this video to the USA judges meeting and demand that the dogs at the National be judged by these same standards. After all if you are going to dumb down for some lets dumb down for all and just be done with it. I think perhaps such a demand should be made just from the point of applying an electric shock to get this organization back on track.  At several club trials recently I have seen the same kind of "gifting" of pronounced. The sad part is when there is a truly good dog that deserves the points and ratings there is no way to distinguish his/her performance from the sufficient or inadequate.

One more thought. If we truly want to fix this ( yeah right) the place to start is at the Koer's. Went to one of those last year and was equally appalled. In fact even more so because there was a lot of "feeding" the sleeve to the dog to make sure it could attach. Same problem with giving pronounced to dogs that were barely sufficient too.

Oh and also have to comment about one more thing. A number of dogs shown this weekend have in the past been complimented on this databse as being strong workers that could compete with working dog ability even tho they were showlines.  All I can say is get a new pair of glasses. It is truly truly sad if what was presented is the best of the best. I shudder to think what the rest are like.

Again, don't complain about the crappy dogs but about the judges. This definitely includes those judging breed surveys.

For example, one of the dogs from the PNW (purchased late last summer from a well-known German körmeister) and entered in the SS as a "no show"--ostensibly, because the owner didn't think that the dog would be able to do the heeling.

Nevertheless, this dog is scheduled to complete his BS for life at a PNW WDA club where the dog's owner is paying for all of the judge's travel/accommodation expenses. This judge just happens to be the dog's breeder and seller.  Whatcha wanna bet that the dog passes the BS with a pronounced rating and also goes V-1 in his breed class? Who cares if the dog doesn't heel--certainly not the owner or the judge?

Dees, I actually understand. No the whole world is not watching but the dog world is at the very least, talking about it, rumors coming from who was there. I would not go out in public with my dog and call that a performance. My 18 month old who is only right now starting to get control put on him looks a hellova lot better than 9 out of 10 of these V and VA dogs. I am just flabbergasted that people will bring dogs out, perform like this and be proud of it. I guess I just have a little pride/self respect/respect for my dog and his image. It's 2 excersizes, 2 very short excersizes. I know house pets that do better OB. What dog can't at the least heel for a friggin' trophy?

My fav was the dog that went to the wrong side of the blind but hey, at least he knew to run to the blind!

Much like every Sieger show I've been to in this country, I was unimpressed ( to put it lightly) with well over three quarters of the performances...but I hope people don't honestly think that every SL fancier finds it acceptable. I certainly do not.

LOL Calvin. I'm betting next year it will not be allowed to video tape!

Sorry to rain on the parade, but try complaining to USA about anything. Nothing, not even the bylaws are regularly or consistently enforced. In one complaint,  an election was held but the bylaws were not followed, the region was dissolved without input from the member clubs and the election declared invalid. On another day, when bylaws were not followed, oh well, there was not time to follow them, so it is ok and the election is fine.

On another day, a HOT dog is not a HOT dog. in another instance, someone is sanctioned when declaring a dog to be HOT that was not. And who knows what the hell the damn rule really is anyway because it has been changed so many times and one has to dig to find it now.

There is no consistency and no integrity in the breed, the sport or the organizations. It is who you know, period. And God forbid one should speak out. No one will listen, but if you have something nice to say about the magazine, well they want to print it IF you will allow them to change a word, and hence the exact meaning of what you said. BS.

Until the current slate of officers are replaced and everyone gets on the same train, nothing will be enforced. But this is unlikely to happen. It is why I say that there is no honor or consistency in the sport and frankly, I am not sure I give a damn again whether a dog does or does not have a title or a breed survey or a show rating. It is all crap and all subject to the whims of people, many of whom lack an ounce of integrity because for them, it is about prestige and money. People send dogs to Europe for crap training and do crap training here. What is the difference? You cannot do enough training in two months on a green dog to get the title, yet I see dogs coming back in three months having gone from BH to SchH3. And these dogs sell too because the saleman has no clue and neither does the buyer.

My club has a small event annually. Dogs fail our breed surveys here. Dogs fail trials here. Dogs are placed V3 rather than V1. Why? Because if the excellent SV judges we bring see that the dogs don't do the work, damn it, they fail, are dismissed, or, if barely passing, are passed with a sufficient instead of pronounced. Dogs here are measured for height by the Körmeister, not two people from the show committee. No one here has just bought a dog from the judge who is coming to judge. If the judge believes a dog is V3, rather than V1, no he is not going to go call the friends/breeders etc. in Germany to discuss it. He calls it like he sees it, with integrity, whether one agrees with his "eye" or not.

The entire system is so full of abuses and a lack of integrity it is disgusting. Several years ago I took my showline, outstanding working, handler/owner/trained SchH3 female to the USA Sieger Show. It was exactly the same then. Many, many dogs did not pass the bite work and many who did should not have. Plenty received pronounced when, in fact, they were barely sufficient. My dog was one of the top females in the protection work. But again, no one cared. All eyes were on the oversized females who were already set up to be VA. Now don't get me wrong, my female is not a VA candidate, but rather a solid V rated female. But she was a real SchH 3 with nice structure, temperament, health and excellent working ability, like Louises' male Geronimo, but who cared? NO ONE.

All the wrong things went into the judging. The same judge at that SS was the one rating the protection work at this SS. There was a furor then too about how poorly some of the passing dogs performed.  I personally spoke to him and registered my opinion about it. It made no difference and it will make no difference here either. But good luck trying.

Until everyone is on the same page, nothing will change. And since it is more likely that hell will freeze over first before everyone is on the same page concerning the goals for the breed and how dogs should b

Don't blame the showline dogs themselves for piss poor training and corrupt, money hungry breeders and political, self serving organizations.

The reason so many SL dogs suck at the work is because top SL breeders don't need to care. It's such an injustice to the dogs, it makes me sad.

And why do they not NEED to care? Because 90% of their puppies are sold as very posh pets. $2500-4500+ on limited registration, why? Because the masses are asses.

How about we start educating the public, start a donation pot and take out a nice glossy ad in all the national dog magazines where all the big money breeders peddle their puppies. The public is brainwashed into thinking because its an import or import lines, it must be worth 2 or 3 mortgage payments.

Wanderer:  My thoughts exactly.  I look at my sable working line male and appreciate his honesty and enthusiasm in the work, such a joy to train,  which in my eyes is everything.  Pretty is as pretty does.

Hodie,  I appreciate your insight and your comments. I am sure they come from years of personal experience(and I mean that in a good way).

I have been in email with several people through out the day that are just as outraged as the majority. I have been cautioned, that I shouldn't stir the pot,  that speaking out will not do any good, UScA will not change things..due to the financial gains of the SS, and that if I do enjoy banging my head into the proverbial brick wall, then Hell, have at it.

In all honestly, I cannot sit back and just accept that this is the way it is. It is WRONG! It is unacceptable, and I for one will not let it go by and accept it as status quo.

This has gone on entirely too long with people accepting it. One voice can start an avalanche. Many voices can bring a mountain down.

My gripe is that the judging was highly inconsistent and the rules were NOT followed. Yes, it matters that the dogs NEED training, NEED better genetics, but we have allowed all these things, either by burying our heads in the sand, or thinking we can't change it. WHY? can't we change it???

I repeat here what I have said so many times today I have lost count, This is not a show line vs working line debate, THIS IS A GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG issue. This is something that affects us all, just as much as the other "inquiries" you stated above.

Yes, we all know that out of the videos we saw, only three dogs were good and deserved the pronounced and outs. Let's get over the performance and talk about the important issue, WHY this was allowed to happen????

I have every intention of writing letters to the UScA as well as to the magazine. As stated above by another poster (my apologies for not remembering whom it was that said this) we NEED to write letters, we need to complain.

Dee Clark, Haus Mansfield, Proud owner of an SG showline that  IS pronounced

I hope you do not mind, Lonewulf, but I am putting the YouTube links up on another GSD forum.  I feel these videos should be shared and shown to as many as possible.  Thank you for taking them.

There is a division and there always will be. A good dog is a good dog but point out a workingline event where the dogs are blatently not ready to compete. Those sick of the circus, will hopefully turn to the workinglines and not abandon the breed alltogether. I'm actually ashamed to share the breed name with this crap. Some of those dogs didn't even look like German Shepherds, small lumbering Wooly Mamoth anyone? Some of those chests are so deep, they are skimming the ground. It's no wonder they bloat if you look at them sideways. You guys would shit yourselves knowing I give my dogs water as soon as we get back from a run or playing ball. I always have and never lost a dog. How messed up is that, to be a dog that can't drink when your hot and thristy? Can't eat yet Fiddo, you just walked around the block. What the hell are we breeding here?

You can cry foul about training all you want but even an untrained dog can have courage.

If the judge can't "see", perhaps we need to have a panel of 3 judges (stationed where they all have a view) to confer and evaluate the performance tests (sort of like the OFA).

I am not familiar with the formal "Roberts Rule of Order" procedures, but as I recall, there's no USA by-law preventing USA  membership (or their regional directors?) from placing discussion of any rule changes they can dream up on the "menu" for the USA General Board Meeting. Perhaps you ought to present a motion in November.

Comparing the judging at a tiny USCA SS with the BSZS is like comparing apples and oranges--JMHO.

Then again...  The only Sieger Show any dog of mine ever suffered serious injury in during the protection performance was the '98 BSZS in Nurnberg... Anyone present will remember my Pallo getting knocked unconscious due to poor sleeve presentation, the arm suddenly dropped low to trip him when he launched for the bite, causing him to bounce end-over-end a few times and land in a deathly still heap. My dog DID regain consciousness as the helper exited, managed to and was allowed to finish the routine, and was rated Ausgebraught, but I wouldn't have been too surprised if he was summarliy excused instead. Of course he was so badly injred I had to scratch him at the stand for exam later in the day... a process which involves  significant additional expenditures for pulling after start of event and official show veterinarian's examination/excuse, BTW, not to mention 3 mos. of crate rest and treatment for his injury... 

SS

If these dogs are titled, yes, they should be able to heel to the blind!  Granted I might expect "some" forging, but the dogs should stay with the handler.   Ok, you are not allowed a second try say on the back transport, why is it allowed here? 

Is there  a video of Ule?

Louise,

I am sorry I haven't told you lately, but you are such a breath of fresh air! Suddenly, or maybe it was happening all along and I just didn't see it, but it is so nice to feel that I am not alone in what I see, and how I feel in regard to all this and other issues. I think for too long many have not felt they could step up and speak their mind....I appreciate that you always have!

I really would enjoy sitting down and talking to you sometime.

Sucks when they don't heel. As I recall, I "set my dog up" and "reset" at least once or twice, heeling in a few circles prior to sitting at the start flag for Carol's performance at the '05 NASS in P'burgh. Ditto for Pallo every time we stepped on the field. Had I not done so, they probably would have left me.

The good news is that as long as one doesn't take too long, (interupt the schedule) and the corrections on the fur-saver aren't too vicious, one is generally allowed to do that. Unfortunately, a lot of unseasoned handlers don't know that, excited, nervous, whatever...

I have always been envious of handlers with long legs who still seem to be walking/heeling when the dog is speeding up, but nobody got away with that little trick in San Jose either. In fact even if I did have long legs.  Blatant practice of that well-worn stunt isn't gonna work in front Mark of all people. LOL Kinda like insulting the judge's tie on way to the blind: not a great first impression. Ha ha ha.

One thing I didn't see so much of last weekend as I have in the past was handlers giving all 3 permissable "aus" commands before the helper stood fast, locked up the sleeve, and their dog had "settled" on the grip. (I like to call that "pilot error.)" I don't recall anyone excusing themself and their dog that way for a change. Overall, I thought dogs' and handlers' performances were much improved even compared to as recently as last year.

SS

"...as long as one doesn't take too long, (interupt the schedule) and the corrections on the fur-saver aren't too vicious, one is generally allowed to do that."   Isn't it nice to know that obedience in the heeling is not actually necessary.

"I have always been envious of handlers with long legs who still seem to be walking/heeling when the dog is speeding up, but nobody got away with that little trick in San Jose either..."  Guess you haven't watched the videos yet.

While we're on the subject, I want to take this opportunity to applaud T Floyd for his tireless efforts  helping anyone and everyone, with ZERO concern for who they were, where they came from, what potentially serious "issues" their dog presented, during both practice sessions. T was probably the last one to exit the parking lot on Friday night, having worked his you-know-what off trying to see to it that any dog who needed some last-minute adjustments in order to do their best the next morning benefitted from his ability & willingness to instantly assess their performance and provide exactly what was needed in light of the time constraints and even hist