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Classified: ***Showline Puppies***
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N.American studs producing great police/military offspring (43 replies)
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Does any informed people know of any studs currently in N. America that are or have been consistently producing excellent police/military quality dogs?? Preferably the production of "real" dogs, true fighters that are not sleeve obsessed "sport only dogs", and may even be very hard to handle for most people.
I'm not neccesarly talking about "points dogs", but studs that are producing equivelant or better than themselves when bred to excellent quality females.
I'm talking about a dog similiair in abilities to like Mink,Troll, Ernst, or Ugo. I think you can get my point.
Most importanly, I could care less about how "famous" the stud is. I'm only interested in the facts and proof to back up the studs producing record.
I have been getting bounced around in the military for a few years now and I've kinda been out of the loop for quite awhile. I finally am getting a little time to start doing some research. I really want to put together a special breeding, the kind that does not come along very often!
To those who answer the question, THANKS IN ADVANCE! |
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Preferably a stud that is "availible". I know how Americans with money to burn just love to buy up outstanding dogs out of Europe. Then they show their true greed, they lock them away in their closet so they can't have a significant influence on the breed in America, or as whole!
They say its for "quality control", yeah right, they should just screen out bad female canidates. It is very simple.
For some reason Europeans just seem to understand that "one" kennel can't maintain the breed, it takes many!
I wonder when the U.S. will figure this out, soon I hope. |
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Swift,
Do you want an American dog or a European dog? You talk like you want the best of the best, are you ready to pay for it?
I would think someone has what your looking for but they might not want to deal with you with the attitude.
I know a man who trains k-9's for law enforcement and he go's in person to make selections and purchase's. Strangely he told me there were no more good dogs left in Germany and he was switching to Mal's. I didnt get an explaination be he knows what he's doing after being in this for many years. I dont think he studs out any of his dogs anyway, GSD or not. Call it job security. You want to put together a special breeding? Doesnt everybody... :)
Good luck!! |
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Most of the K9 that come through the kennel I work for are imported, and many LE departments dont allow the dogs to be used for stud. |
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Dont know many people in the dog business with money to burn or what that implies. When you import a dog it is your right to breed or not as you paid for the dog. I live a six to seven hour drive from the nearest airport that takes a 500.00 crate one way mind you, and in traffic could be eight hours total of 16 hours away from the house and have a elderly ill bedridden mother that I am sole care giver, so I do not do outside stud service it is not feasible coupled with the fact that my females take priorty so it is not always greed that determines whether someone does outside stud service. I tend to think dogs imported over here and get lined up to every female in america who can stand up is more of a sign of true greed.
I think there are plenty of Police dogs, harder type dogs for you to get a stud service in your area if you check around.
When you asked the question I thought you might be looking for a puppy sorry to confuse you hope you find what you need.
Marlene |
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Two Moons & Marleen,
Let me clarify, I have absolutely no attitude. I'm a nice guy! It just makes me sick when I think of all the excellent world class studs that have came to america and had 4 or 5 breedings then drifted off into oblivion! They got passed from one owner to the next after they were bred 2 or 3 times and finally wound up chained to a tree in some idiot's back yard.
I just really prefer the system of european breeding working dogs over the american one. Let's be honest, if "american bred dogs" were so truly spectacular, we wouldn't of had to import all these dogs for the past 30 or so years. If we so truly knew everything, you would have american working kennels that were even better than the best kennels of Europe.
At one point in time both Mink and Fero were in the United States. But as usual we failed at exploit the situation, unlike many european breeders know how to do. For the most part, they work together a lot better than we do.
Most of the time, in america it is every kennel for itself. |
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Your right about the difference between usa and ero breeders yet I disagree on much of your other views about importing GSD's from oversea's. Anyway I hope you find what your looking for. |
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Hmmmm, I don't think exploit is the right word. That would mean every female lined up and bred, which would create too many pups from that line and possibly cause more harm than good. It always bothers me when I see TONS of pups and adults from one or two well known males in the area. It seems that you cannot find anything esle within a few states driving distance. To me, it just lessens the gene pool to choose from. I think it is better to reduce the females that are bred to well known or desired studs, even it if means only breeding your own females or being VERY selective of which outside females you breed to. |
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Of the most importance.
American Kennels need to start embracing the concept of frozen semen a lot more than at the present! Imagine having the ability to breed back to a outstanding one of a kind Stud that has been dead for 20 years. If the breed keeps on drifting in the wrong direction, breeder and kennels all over the country could go back in time and start over.
Bringing in a female to live breed to your stud is a major pain in the rear. And if you don't have all the time and resources to do live breedings, frozen semen is a outstanding system. Certain dogs absolutely deserve to contribute to the breed. If somebody has a great female it should be able to be bred to one of these "closed" stud dogs. If you don't want terrible females giving your great stud dog a bad name, then make sure outside females are of excellent quality first, it is very simple.
I'm not talking about greed in the sense of money, but more so as ego. A hand full of private breedings is not much if you consider how few of the pups make it into working homes, let alone turn into great stud dogs themselves.
It is not fair to the breed to buy/breed one of these oustanding stud dogs and then lock it away from the world! They are not "Trophies", but are living tools to greatly contribute to the improvement of the breed. I would like for my sons and grandsons to enjoy "real working dogs" too, not read about them in a book.
People are free, they can do what they please. But It would be great if more people thought about "improving the breed as a whole" not just there own kennels. |
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Once one of the "true greats" is dead, he is not going to come back to life, he is in the ground for good. UNLESS, his semen was stored! The CAMELOT system of frozen canine semen has a 94% conception rate and a average of 7 pups per litter, far superior to straws anyday! They really know their stuff.
Anyhow we are way off topic! Let's get back on topic and get some good conversation going!
How about all those world class producers availible in America?? Who does america think is the next Mink, Fero, or Troll etc. ??? Who has a good record of producing "REAL" dogs that are not just "sport" dogs that are only obsessed with the sleeve?
Their has to be some more out there.
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There are some very strong dogs doing "sport" and that are Schh3, not working police dogs - but really it's all individual opinion in the end. For my own program I look for dogs (males and females) with power in the gripwork, intensity and aggression in the guarding, not barking for the prey, not focusing on the sleeve but always on the man. The target for the grips is the man (in the middle) not the sleeve (to the side) you can see this especially in the courage test. The dogs standing on the podium are not the dogs I look at (except usually in passing) for my program - I like to use the dogs who may not be getting the points, because of their drive, power and aggression - the points "go out the window" but for breeding these are the valuable dogs.
My own dog will bite for real, has been worked/tested with the police and with hidden sleeve etc. I would also say Eick v Berger Hochburg Schh3 would be another to consider, a very serious, powerful dog. The dogs I've seen coming directly from Ernst (on your list) and Lewis have been more "sporty" IMO, whereas dogs coming directly from Mink (not through Lewis, Ernst) and Crok (mink son) have been more serious, powerful, hard. I have liked the combination of Fero (through Troll, or Fero via female lines) combined with Mink (through Crok not Lewis) for the same. Also look for Arek Stoffelblick to bring aggression, hardness (and handler hardness) to the table.
But in the end it still is personal opinion, you have to see the dog work and decide if that particular stud dog is what you want, and then look at his pedigree.
molly
Eichenluft Working German Shepherds
http://workinggermanshepherd.com |
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Are you guys putting "sleeve focusing" dogs out of the equation merely because they would love the sleeve and would go after it rather than the "man"? I would say there's a lot more to it than that. Take a dog up against the helper he's known for quite a while, and has an absolute love for the work...does he still have to focus on the man or would you forgive him if he happened to think it's a rule to stay on the sleeve? And how about the dog that focuses on the man, all the time--is he a REAL dog or could he just be a defensive dog on the edge, who could crack if the pressure was amped up?
The whole dog should always be judged...not just one facet of his behaviour he happened to be doing at the time. |
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just to clarify guys.
The thread is searching out availible studs in the U.S. that are not only incredible dogs, but good producers as well.
The stud can be trained in sport thats fine, it doesn't have to itself be a police dog. We are looking for dogs that are true "fighters" in there heart. It could be a WUSV winner, IF it would love to bite a man for real and had excellent aggression.
The sport (shutzhund) was created after the fact for the breeds benifit, the breed was not created for schutzhund. Sport is a good thing don't get me wrong, but to many people breed to get the "points" and not to produce a incredibly tough dog like MINK for instance. Look at those incredibly tough, world class brawlers that were around 15-25 years ago, they are all in the ground now. We need some more dogs like that, we shouldn't have to read about them in articles, they should be taking someone to the ground as we speak.
In short we are looking for the studs that are and produce dogs that are so good and tough at what they do they are just bad news for any helper or criminal. one that takes quite a experienced person to even control. A stud who would put a sly grin on face of Stephanitz! Who is the next up and coming legendary stud of america, let's hear the opinions! |
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"The dogs I've seen coming directly from Ernst (on your list) and Lewis have been more "sporty" "
Having bred 2 litters out of Ernst, I would disagree wholeheartedly with this. I own a female, and my husband owns a male, and both are far from sporty. They will bite for real in a heartbeat. Most of their littermates (though certainly not all) also have a bit of an edge to them and strong aggression in protection, not prey, and will bite for real as well. |
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Swift
One thing to remember is that Germany is the size of Wisconsin. I think that if we kept every GSD in the USA in the state of Wisconsin, it would be a hell of alot easier to get the appropriate males to the right females. Like Marlene stated, she is around 8 hours away from the nearest airport. In Europe, do you know how far you can get in an 8 hr drive? It takes 8 Hrs to drive from San Francisco to Los Angeles. America is huge and the dogs are spread out across this country. Offcourse it is easier in Germany.
Second point is that it is really nobody's business what someone does with their property. If I bought Orry Antverpa and wanted to shave poodle balls on his ass, that is my choice. If I want to do a few select breedings a year and not do outside, that is my choice too. If it is so valuable for you to get this blood that I own, why not sign up on the waitinglist and wait patiently like a good boy. If you don't like that, take out a loan and import your own stud.
Just recently, a man purchased a private video of Marilyn Monroe having sex. He paid $1.5 million for the tape and he will not let anyone view the tape. What is his reasoning? WHo cares! He can do whatever he wants. |
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"The dogs I've seen coming directly from Ernst (on your list) and Lewis have been more "sporty" "
Having bred 2 litters out of Ernst, I would disagree wholeheartedly with this. I own a female, and my husband owns a male, and both are far from sporty. They will bite for real in a heartbeat. Most of their littermates (though certainly not all) also have a bit of an edge to them and strong aggression in protection, not prey, and will bite for real as well.""
The dogs I've seen that came from Ernst (some from your program) are very nice temperamented, well-rounded balanced dogs, but for me they are 'sporty' and not what I like to see in power, aggression and nerve stength in the gripwork. I have seen others from Ernst/Lewis that are the same. Nice sport dogs, nothing wrong with them at all for sport, but for breeding..... - notice I have never used either Ernst nor Lewis in my program for this reason.
Again, it's an individual opinion and that's what I have seen for myself from these lines.
molly |
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"If I bought Orry Antverpa and wanted to shave poodle balls on his ass, that is my choice"
LOL holey crap! Don, you owe me a new computer screen! |
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Swift,
I was gonna just walk away and leave this alone but nope, ain't gonna happen. This breed was not created for Schutzhund, that is correct. The breed was created to herd my friend. You could not put a grin on the face of Stephanitz if you tried. In short I dont think you know anything useful about the German Shepherd dog. Some guy came around here not too long ago who kind of wanted the same thing, some kind of man eater he had made up in his sleep. Thats not what the GSD is all about. I know there are a lot of very capable working k-9's who take down bad guys, you disrespect them. Maybe you just don't come across well and need re-think your request for a hard dog. I told you that you had attitude and you blew it off, but yes you do and I wouldn't sell you a dog. I think you would abuse it trying to get it to kill someone. Just remember what goes around comes around. You wanted opinions and thats mine based on your statements.
Brent. |
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"wanted to shave poodle balls on his ass, that is my choice"
I just found my next way to humiliate Xandor. Spring is here. Time for a new 'do. |
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Shave mine while your at it, makes it easier to pull off the ticks.. GOD I hate ticks!!! Got three new bites yesterday all in the no fly zone...its gonna be a bad year again for ticks at my house. Shave away!! ........:P |
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"American Kennels need to start embracing the concept of frozen semen a lot more than at the present! "
I have offered to give away semen from my male if someone wants to come and take it from him as long as they save a bit for me. Nobody has taken me up on that offer yet.
Just because I bought myself a nice male, it doesn't mean I want to spend my life running back and forth to the Detroit airport which is a good 3 1/2 hour trip one way. People are welcome to use him if they want to bring their females here and I've even driven to other places that are within reasonable distance. I don't have the extra space or time to take in females on a regular basis. I am breeding an outside bitch right now and I'm having to take her to work with me because she hates the other female dogs so much and I don't want her stressed out. Complete pain in the ass but she's a bitch I don't mind going the extra mile with. |
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Your right MI_GSD it is a lot of work and running around. Yet I believe in the process and dont believe A I benifits the breed, any breed. Call me Mr. Natural if you like, old fasioned and a believer in the natural order of life.
JMO |
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Most of the dogs I could recommend only have young offspring. Molly already mentioned Eich v.d. Berger Hochburg. Others to look at would be dogs coming down from Asko v.d. Lutter. Sons in the USA are Kway Posthorn and Mücke Haus Vortkamp. I haven't seen what Mücke produces, but sure am liking the litter I had by Kway. The nerves and intensity are exceptional. Another dog to consider would be Andy Maly Vah. Retired dual purpose PSD with exceptional nerves and character which he seems to be producing. His pups are also young.
I already mentioned Asko, but also look for Arek Stoffelblick and other dogs coming down from Matsch Bungalow; Mink through Iko, Jenni, Jalk Lindenhalle, Crok and Asko Parkstraße; Tom van 't Leefdaalhof has also produced PSD and some of his sons have produced very serious dogs that also have exceptional nerves (Jabina Haig to name one). I wish Belschik Eichen-Bruche had been used more when he came over here.
I see AI as an excellent tool when used with diligence. When used to breed females that would never stand for a male or for males with poor libido or other reasons that they can't breed naturally it is NOT a good thing.
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Swift way to go man and those people who saying my money my dog i can do whatever i want really nice and grown up attitude and the one that would really help improve the breed which is the concern of every one who is breeding german shephers these days.Although i do not know why because there is nothing wrong with german shepher as i said before.Another thing i like to say is that Americans are breeding german sheherds how long and still can only show you the best dog which they imported.that alone says it all.if germans and others in europe are not buying dogs from you this should tell you all breeders something.have a nice one. |
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The game never changes. People moan and bitch about the same BS year after year. I have heard this crap about how much tougher the dogs were 10 or 15 years ago every damn year since 1981. The dogs are the same, training methods have changed, and myths always get bigger. People just parrot what they have heard over and over again. |
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Frozen is expensive to collect at 700.00 for the vet fees, special box, shipping to the bank in Calf. and yearly storage fees plus my dog will not allow to be collected even with a teaser bitch, we tried several times and he is too dominate to let the vet do this, so again it is not as easy as one sees on the surface.
I talked to Zidane about shaving him some poddle balls and he said that would be great as long as he gets to sleep in the bed and no number 2 blades!
People think outside stud service is a snap and if I lived next door to the airport still not something I would want to do on a regular basis. I am sure most experienced breeders can idenify breeding a first time female who wants to eat you and your stud dog and the fact it takes two people to breed this type of female with risk of injury to your dog and yourself. The responsibility of the dog while it is in your care as well and some females when transported get stressed and go out of heat which again you will be blamed not to mention if they do not take all of this to do over again.
I have never understood why some people think you are obligated to breed your dog if this is not your choosing . When you do agree to outside service and tell them a price some people complain about that as well so it is a no win deal either way you go someone will have a beef.
I had a stranger stop here with a dirty, ragged, spooky, cowed shepherd tied in his pickup truck bed (american) no papers, no xrays ever done and wanted to know if this was the place with German Shepherds, I replied yes, he said good I want to breed my female today" I said do I know you ?did you call?, he replied "no did I have to you do have a male dont you" I said yes, but we do not do stud service he looked at me as if I was nuts he had never heard of a stud fee number one or we would not breed a dog unless we approved of her and was highly insulted by my asking about his dogs hips and lineage after all she was purebred and he paid 70.00 dollars for her what was i thinking and who did I think I was... he left shaking his head in disbelief and he was mad....so nothing should surprise me but it still does!
Marlene |
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I spoke with Mike Diehl the other day and he said about Eiche von Berger Hochburg Schh3 "He is the best producer I've ever owned. He is also the best biting dog I've ever owned or worked. He has the genetic grip that he produces along with extreme drives. He is also a very hard dog that dominates all situations." That is saying alot coming from Mike in my view. Eiche also has a littermate in the US named Eros who is very similar to what Mike says. |
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nothing against mike or eichhocburg but he also said that about my most favourite dog the one and only and the great Brawnson.and just may openion but Eich hocburg is no Brawnson. |
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I understand, he might have said that about Brawnson at one time as well.I am just looking into breeding on these lines with my female and this was the email response I received.He obviously has several nice males at this time. |
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Mike has a new dog that is awsome a solid black male that anyone could not go wrong with breeding to he is the bomb. I saw his protection at the ADWF and it was breath taking a very nice dog this one It came from Eurosport hats off to them. The offspring from this dog is young but I heard they are super young dogs so he is going to be a great producer as well from the looks of things. Mike will do very well with this dog. He is also a handsome boy as well that is icing on the cake.
Marlene |
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Here is a great but often forgotten dog. Illo von der Abfuhr - Sch 3, IPO 3. He is not exactly what I would call a "points" dog, but definetaly the right dog for breeding to if you have the right female. He has a great pedigree, especially on the sire's side.
He is up in Ontario, Canada. Excellent producer too, was used quite a bit in Europe, even by Jiri at Jinopo for a few years. He can bite for real with no problem, he is very social too, but still also has excellent aggression and very hard protection. He has produced mostly very tough kids, police dogs also.
Any other opinions of Illo, who has one of his kids, what are yours like? |
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Mike's black dog is Erri z blatenskeho Zamku.i have watched this dog since euro sport got it from where ever and yes he was trained over there and competed very fast dog and very good dog and his father Orry is an awesome dog.i guess when you your blood coming from the too greatest like Grim z Ps and Pike and when some one has done amazing job putting good foundation in you,sure you can never go wrong.awesome dog sure hope he is respected nad appreciated. |
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Again Illo abfuhr is another awesome dog comming from pike'i do belive that Illo's grand father is pike brother.so again very very good dog. |
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What kennel owns this dog? I am also in North Florida. |
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I would highly recommend looking at Kway vom Posthorn. I bred my Ufo van Guy's hof daughter to him and so far I'm very pleased with the results. These pups of course are very young at 14 weeks, but are showing to be very confident with excellent drive for food, toys and scenting. They also are also showing very nice bite behavior. We kept two males.
I did a substantial amount of research before breeding my girl to Kway, including talking with breeders and looking at his offspring. I also saw him work at the 04' Nationals and at his home in Illinois. Everything I heard and saw showed me that he is producing solid working dogs that are versatile. We had a litter of five and all the pups went to Schutzhund working homes. In fact this is what one gal had to say about her girl, "Anniken has very good ball drive, very good hunt drive-she does not give up the search for the ball until she finds it. And she likes the water very much." One fellow could not get over the quality of the pup I had sent him and said that videos and photos did not do him justice (Moe).
I don't write on this board very often, but I feel very strongly that Kway (Asko von der Lutter son and Aly vom vordersteinwald grandson) is a great producer...so I was impelled to respond. I live in California and there are plenty of studs here and it would have been a lot less expensive to breed my girl here. I think often what gets in the way of good breedings in the USA is the logistics.
You can see our puppy videos on our website
Thanks,
Michele Hansen
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I know Aceofnike v h Bleekhof has progeny in police and military. I just heard today that an 11 month nike son old was placed with special forces for training just this week.
www.aceofnike.com
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bill jenkins @ texomak-9.com has dunco va-pe a nick son that has produced nicely. bill trains police k9's and is a nice guy. i know he studs to approved females and does frozen for ai.
kenny |
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