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Classified: Titled Import Female
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Results for Sieger Show in San Jose? (104 replies)
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Sorry, got ahead of myself-
Anyone have any word on what happened today with the puppies?
Theresa |
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Wow, small class.
How has the airline trouble affected the show so far? |
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All the puppy classes are posted including the Performance Tests....
Question.....I'm new to the showing and schutzhund....
Under the Performance test for the results it has TSB .....what does that stand for?? Most dogs have "a" which I'm assuming is excellent? And a couple "suff" |
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Interesting performance results. I wish I could've been there. |
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The "a" signifies pronounced in the bite work. Would be nice to know the judge's definition of pronounced though.
I hear Heidi Theis male Obi looked fantastic and received many compliments from the judge. Wish I could have been there! |
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Two thumbs up for Heidi T.!!! |
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"Suf" is sufficient in the bitework
"Insuf" is insufficient in the bitework.
TSB is basically the dogs ability to show courage and withstand pressure. I'm sure that someone else can word it better though. :)
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Thank you =) I figured it meant something like that but wanted to be sure =) I can't wait to hear the final results of everything! I was hoping Ingodd's Albert would do really well, but I see he recieved a TSB = Suff |
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Rezkat, your wording was very good. The problem is pronounced means different things to different judges. I would like to have been there to see the difference between pronounced, sufficient and INS.
I am anxious to get a first hand account from someone. A friend of mine called me after the tests and gave me a run down, but she isn't as experienced a reporter as I would have liked. |
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I definitely think that a "pronounced" at a sieger show, is not the same as a "pronounced" at a National Schutzhund Competition. Of course, I've probably opened a big can of worms there! LOL Go easy on me! I too would like to know what a judge's criteria is. |
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Typically what would be classified as "sufficient"...a step down from pronounced? Not biting with a full mouth? Being slightly hesitant?
I am eager to hear a run down as well, unfortunately I don't know any personally who as able to go... |
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The following is taken from the UScA Rules for a Sieger Show
"The judge will evaluate the gripwork as it is described in USA’s Schutzhund Rule Book, “The dog should counter the attack securely and energetically in stopping the attack by the helper.” A lack of self-confidence in the gripwork shall be evaluated as “sufficient” in courage."
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Shelley Strohl, who is there, I believe gave a very nice rundown last year. So hopefully she will do the same this year. ;) |
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TSB stands for Trieb (drive), Selbstsicherheit (self-confidence), Belastbarkeit (ability to withstand stress/pressure). |
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Rezkat, Let me hold that can opener for you! I completely agree with you. I would hope other high line owners(I can say that I am one) would agree. I readily admit I am overly critical of bite work.
AlliGSD,
The following is taken from UScA Sieger Show Rules
"Evaluation of the Performance Test
- Dogs that do not demonstrate a correct performance test cannot receive the rating of Excellent-Select (VA).
- Dogs that continue to bump or re-grip after the "out" will be placed at the end of whatever conformation rating they would achieve.
- Dogs that do not perform the free heeling exercise within three (3) attempts, or dogs that do not perform the "out" exercise, or dogs that receive the evaluation of “sufficient” or “insufficient” cannot continue in the competition of the show. No rating is given. "
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Aqua - Thank you!
O yes! I forgot she is there! Showing her male, Jed...can't wait to hear from her |
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LOL Alli! Scared me for a second there. |
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What I'd like to know is what a dog did that earned him a D/Q. |
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Thanks DeesWolf......newbie here...obviously..LOL
I saw on the catalog on the webpage that there is only 1 female in line for the univeral seiger??? How is that? Ule v Temar....or maybe this list is incomplete?
Sorry so many questions....trying to take in as much as possible..LOL |
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Thanks DeesWolf......newbie here...obviously..LOL
I saw on the catalog on the webpage that there is only 1 female in line for the univeral seiger??? How is that? Ule v Temar....or maybe this list is incomplete?
Sorry so many questions....trying to take in as much as possible..LOL |
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Historically I believe that there has only been two females to get Universal Sieger, and the first one was in 2002 or something. Mindy I believe the dog's name was. |
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In regard to universal sieger, a handler has to "sign up for it". Not every dog is automatically entered.
Louise, I too would like to know what the cause of the DQ was. There isn't any info on the heeling to the attack or the courage test. There is a long list of things I could think of, that would be the cause of a DQ. |
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T. Floyds dog Mendy. I do believe that was 2002. |
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| And Pia Blackwell's bitch. The other (few) Universal Siegers have been working line males. The dog must receive a rating at the Sieger Show and qualify (270 score and participation in a regional championship) for the USA Nationals. The points for the Uni title is based on the SS show rating and score at the nationals.
The list of "prospectives" includes (mostly?) PR statements, as the dogs have never trialed in the US, are not likely to ever be trialed, certainly not in a USA trial and not likely to get 270 pts in a USA trial, if they did. Ule v Temar IS a real Univerals Sieger candidate
Ule has been in the running for Uni before in Canada, works VERY well, has been raised and trained as a working dog and , accordingly, scores very well in trials. There is also a working line male who competes at a high level on a regular basis
Who may be a truly viable Uni candidate, too. |
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Louise, the dog that ws DQ'd bit the helper in the leg! This was the second time!!!! the dog bit him in the leg on Thursday night during practice and then did it again during the show. |
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OOh and it was the front half helper, Scott somebody. I was not there, but I think it was the first out command from the attack out of the blind.
The dog outed and immediately bit the leg, the helper already had a huge bruise from two days earlier! On Thursday the dog wouldn't let go, Jose did not mention this time if the dog let go quickly or not, but on Thursday night, he hung on to the helpers leg! |
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There were a total of 15 bitches that made it to the final ring. Roughly 20 bitches either failed bitework, were pulled, or were absent. Seems to me that 6 VA's is an extraodinarily high number. This would almost be proportionate to 75 VA's at a German Sieger show.
KariM,
Sorry to hear that Jose was bitten twice. He is one of my favorite helpers.
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Louise, Jose was NOT bitten, it was the front half helper, Scott. Jose was the messenger to me yesterday ;-)
Jose is too smart to be bitten TWICE by the same dog! |
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I thought the same thing, Louise. I felt the same way at the NASS last year with 1/3 of the class making VA. I don't mean to belittle anyone's dog, they were all outstanding quality, it just seemed excessive. |
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KariM: Jose is too smart to be bitten TWICE by the same dog!
I should hope so!
Glad I didn't enter the show and stayed home. Not glad to be sick (just a bad cold), however. I'm taking advantage of this beautiful weather by doing dog toenails and bathing the critters outside. |
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| So, over a THIRD went VA among the bitches? Sounds like more "inflation."
Vegas is the Siegerine-- which male is Sieger?
...and is Ule v Temar the sole Universal Sieger potential? |
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Was Tee Jay VA1 last year too?
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There are 7 male candidates for Uni as well as Ule. |
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Mystere: The list of "prospectives" includes (mostly?) PR statements, as the dogs have never trialed in the US, are not likely to ever be trialed, certainly not in a USA trial and not likely to get 270 pts in a USA trial, if they did. |
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| I meant real candidates who would actually enter a USA trial, had a possibility of scoring 270 in that trial and are likely to enter a USA regional championship. Gismo, who did not show, was the only male likely to do so. Have the others EVER been in any USA-sanctioned trial. Ever?
Ule, on the other hand, has competed multiple times in club, regional and national trials. |
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Juneau, Enko (a very good working dog, BTW), and Obi Wan have (does excellent bitework) have competed in this country. Whether they will be going to regionals and getting 270 or better is another matter. |
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I think possibly (not totally certain) Ule will still have to score at a USA regional as well? |
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| And those ARE requirements for Universal Sieger, as the candidates must compete in the USA National Chapionship. You mention that the 3 males have competed in this country. Was that in USA trials? "Sweet Water" trials and "Midnight Trials in the California Sun" are hardly good "indicators" that they will enter the requisite trials.
A dog named "Obiwan" had better be excellent in the bitework, huh? Give a dog , or a child, a name to live up to!! :-) |
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Wow, Mystere, you've sure got a bee in your bonnet about the male lineup. Heidi Theis can HARDLY be called a midnight trial trainer.
Now it is true that if one only trials under judges where one knows the pencil is somewhat less sharp and thusly proudly displays fine scores, then certainly one must prove the performance at a USCA regional and there is no getting around that. And then there is the final proof. If you have only gone in midnight trials so-to-speak, best not waste you money.
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Two of the dogs are from the East or Mid-West--so no trials in California. Heidi and her dog live in Idaho. When Heidi titled my two dogs, there were surely no midnight trials. |
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CONGRATS to ALL who entered and did their best!
Not to rain on anyone's parade....but I too though after looking at the "final" class sizes....that there were way too many VA titles awarded......wow!... nearly 50% of each class........(final amount of dogs finishing each class)........
I really like a few of the dogs.......BUT......I always believed that the VA title was awarded to the elite few......... |
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Juneau is handler-owner-trained/raised by a man in VA - family dog too - I would think he could be a good candidate for US - however he is not yet Schh3. not sure if being Schh3 when competing at the SS is a requirement for US in the same year, but I would think so...
molly |
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crhuerta- you took the words right out of my mouth.
I noticed a "SUF" rating previously posted was an "a" when the working class males were posted. A typo, or...?
I see VA Ronaldo is a Universal candidate. When will it be decided? GSD Nationals? I thought it was awarded after the Sieger show.
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The Universal Sieger is awarded after the GSD Nationals, based on the rating received at the Sieger Show and the dog's performance at the Nationals.
I don't know anything about the dog, but there was an Ellute son shown who received an SG rating - Ulrich vom Hammerbachthal. He's also declared for Universal Sieger. |
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To make Juneau's accomplishment even sweeter, I believe he is the first dog ever trained by this owner who is a very busy professional. That's a huge accomplishment in my book. |
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| Wanderer:
Please don't try to put words in my mouth, especially when you misread. My reference to "Midnight trials" was quite specific and easily discerned by those who have seen the trial results from a California club (also referenced). The ONLY reference to Heidi by me was about the dog's name--set off from the other references to make that clear.
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I've seen Juneau train, when he was really sorta starting out as a younger dog (not as a pup) he is a very nice male. Ravi does an amazing job with the dog. He is a talented handler and very professional. He takes his job on the field seriously and Juneau is certainly worthy of the title.
He's got my support. I saw him train 2 weeks ago Friday, the first time I saw him train in almost a year, nice dog, and Ravi is a great handler with him. He really reads his dog well. I hope his hard work will pay off, he is very deserving of this title if he recieves it!
Shannon |
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| Ule WILL have to score 270 in a USA trial and prticipate in aa regional. As already indicated, Ule has shown an ability to do that in Canadian trials and the Canadian National Chanpionship under SV, Canadian and USA judges.
So, my point is simply that this show line bitch is a real, viable candidate for Universal Sieger, in contrast to the Sch 3 males listed (obviously not Gismo (who pulled) or the Ellute son) who are unlikely to be trialed at a USA trial or regional. Therefore, they are NOT actually Universal Sieger candidates. But, I guess we will see over the next several months, when Ronaldo and the other males are trialed at USA trials and participate in a USA regional
With the exception of dogs like Nimo, how often does anyone see the Sch 3 show line dogs who show at the USA and/or WDA Sieger Shows on the trial field in the US? It would be really nice to see multiple dogs in the running at the Championship in November. I just don't think it is likely (as usual). |
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Mystere, I'm not disputing Ule's ability and if you have seen her work and say she is a viable candidate, I don't doubt that she is. I checked the Canadian National Trial results for 2007 and this is what I found:
Not sure why you think she is a better candidate than all the males.
Ule v Temar GSD Karen Sinclair 58 84 88 a |
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| Because Uli has scored V tracking more than once and MOSTLY, because I doubt you will be able to find ANY scores for most of the males from trials in this hemisphere (aside from possibly an OG Aqua Dolce trial...which proves my point.) Anyone who trains and trials knows that any dog can have a bad day in one or more phases in a trial. Stuff happens. :-)
The Canadian Sieger Show and the Canadian Nationals are held together on the same weekend. As you probably know, the females tend to flunk the bitework in the show in droves and the males don't fare much better. How many of any were in the trial alongside Ule? :-)
I am not saying Ule is "all that and a bag of chips." She is not my "preferred" type. BUT, she had repeatedly demonstrated that she can and does work, in trials in full view, in sharp contrast. |
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Nia,
Open mouth, insert foot, repeat as necessary.......................................... |
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We had a heat wave at the Canadian Nationals, and Ule was not the only one that had a hard time with the track.
Here is a few pictures of her, from the Nationals.

 
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She looks good - it's always nice to see a black/red dog that is working with drive and strength of character :) thanks for the pictures.
molly |
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I watched the Trial with a few of the DVG National group and they liked Ule a Lot.
They gave me the impression that the Judge (Inge Balonier) was hard and fair.
I remember also that Karen losing a few of the points on handler errors.
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I really liked Ule, Enko and Obi wan. Karen Sinclair & Heide Theisof are very nice people also and these dogs would be strong contenders.
It is a long road to Texas and definitely everyone will have their work cut out for them, especially first-time contenders and newbies.
I did take detailed videos of the Performance Tests of all the working males and the working females.
I haven't decided whether or not to post it since it will definitely not be complementary to a lot of the dogs that were awarded high conformation ratings.
Only 27 males (out of 47 entered) and 15 females (out of 35 entered) made it to working ring on Sunday. The actual figures would be even lower ( about half that) if the Performance test rules on Saturday had been even modestly enforced....but I guess that would not be something to be very proud of as the premier GSD organization of the Americas ... not to mention the financial implications of such a thing.
Still there were about half a dozen females and half a dozen males that stood out in the area of their character, stability under pressure as well as their beauty and structural soundness. These do give some hope for those of us who yearn for the experience of that total German Shepherd before it becomes a mere fable… a bedtime story told to our grandchildren with the opening line … “Long, long ago.”
Ravi Iyer |
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I wish Karen and Heidi and Ravi all strong and worthy performances in the USA Nationals. Time will tell. |
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Gosh, nothing like giving support and then kicking the legs out from underneath them. <shaking my head> |
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Scuuse me? "Gosh, nothing like giving support and then kicking the legs out from underneath them."
Time will tell for all the competitors. Doesn't mean you should not wish them well. I never said I did not wish anyone well, only that I could not understand why Mystere singled one competitor out and dismissed the others. |
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It would be very interesting to see the performance test routines. I am curious to compare at least a couple with their german sieger show routines. |
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Heidi's do Obi received his BH, SchH1, and SchH3 dog at USA trials. He was named as a pup by Heidi's (then) 6-year-old son and kept as a family pet--not as a show dog to knock everyone's socks off.
His work was praised by the judges, helpers, and spectators in San Jose. I take pride in the fact that Heidi frequently compairs the quality of his work what that of my own dogs (Geronimo and Zeek Olympus--titled by Heidi). |
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Interesting that my post in response to Wander's "dismissed" charge has disappeared. So, I will state again:
The other dogs were not being "dismissed' I know Ule is not "typical" of show lines dogs, as she trials fairly often in GSSCC and USA trials where all and sundry can see the work. She is the only one of the lot that went beyond the Sch 3 to also earn a Fh ( and if recollection serves, that was with a "V" score). The fact is that several declared when no one has EVER seen them trial in a USA event and they probably NEVER will do so. Several of the declared dogs are totally out of the running for Universal Sieger by any stretch of the imagination: Yasso was listed as "ins" on the Univeral Sieger page (which is presumably accurate on ratings); Dax pulled, Gismo pulled; Yash pulled. We will just have to wait and see if those remaining that declared for Universal Sieger follow through with qualifying scores of 270 in a USA-sanctioned trial and/or participation in a USA regional championship.
I also stated that if Ronaldo does enter and trial at a USA trial to qualify and participates in a USA Regional Championship, I will send Wanderer an Edible Bouquet.
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There used to be a person who wrote up reviews of the bite work for each of the VA and V rated dogs - did anyone do this for this years event?
-Calvin |
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You might think this as a bitch session. I just don't understand why we do not see official videographers doing this kind of big show. In 2004 I went to a simple Regional with Breed Survey and the whole thing was videographed. I purchased one for only $65.00. OK so I go to the NASS and DawnMarie is the the official Photographer. Owns all photos etc. But absolutely unaffordable. I am talking about the public perception. If I were to purchase the pics of my dog and I am sure those were not the only photos of myself and my dog, the cost would be $500.00. But the photos say nothing.
I really wish these venues would move toward videographing the entire event. I would rather spend $120 for a video that memorializes the event in its entirety than deciding which stack photo of my dog will look good on my website (which I don't have) and signing complying with godzillions of copywrights that the "official" photographer decides to implement.
I find the NASS 2007 official photographer to have outpriced herself and therefore not made available to those wishing to purchase photos of their dogs or other dogs, a non-official photographer. Most of us that knew Larry memorialized the event with Larry's photos.
Who decided not to videograph the event?
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Sunshine: What Larry are you referring to? |
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i just viewed video of the bitework of the males at the SS. Obiwan did perform very credibly. What isinteresting is the performance of a couple of the VA dogs that received "pronounced" rating. The other interesting thing is the number of "Sweet Watr" dogs that went 'ins." |
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Not meaning to sound any more obtuse than usual...what's a sweet watr dog?
SS |
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I agree Mystere! I don't know the dogs, but it was interesting to see. |
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Never being to a sieger show, what's up with the Do overs?????? |
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there has been many many hard working people that have been able to do what he did. if you have ever been to a sieger show or national event you will see that!!! he is the not the first and not the last!!! |
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Not as inconsistent as some of the german sieger show bite work but you are correct about the performances of 44 and 45. I thought 6 showed more than those two and certainly no less but got INS. I felt bad for 23 who got run over and stomped on twice, bad angle or other positioning but still unfortunate. At least the performance of 44 was better than his german sieger show bitework. |
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| Shelley,
Louise is correct. I had a typo in water. :-) it was interesting to see the dogs from the kennel headquartered there go ins time after time. And the "do overs"? I have NEVER seen that, even in a Sieger Show.
I know some are very disturbed and upset by what is on these videos. Perhaps I have become inured to the "less than club trial level" performances. Maybe I am just glad to see a few nice performances from dogs from the PNW ( Odin and Obiwan). Maybe I am just glad from the good honest performance by dogs like Odin, Obi, Juneau, Ulrich... Maybe I am just so impressed with the beautiful venue and the beautiful (and totally unimpressed) horses who didn't even bother to watch.
It was a beautiful venue. Louise, do you know whether this was a private ranch? |
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Inntro Bullinger (sp?) had a very nice routine also as well as the above mentioned. |
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gsdsch3v- I saw #23 at the NASS last year and I thought he was one of the better biting dogs. I was surprised when the results went up, but I am so glad there are videos posted. Explains a lot.
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gsdsch3v: At least the performance of 44 was better than his german sieger show bitework.
You must mean 46--our illustrious VA-1 dog (Teejay) who did indeed fail bitework at the German SS.
44 was Obi. Heidi doesn't drag her dogs to shows in Germany.
Mystere: It was a beautiful venue. Louise, do you know whether this was a private ranch? I believe the ranch may be owned by the county. |
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ObiWan stood out, very good performance!!
Never took this eyes off the helper, no looking around.
No forging on the heel, strong and clean, very nice work!!!
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Is this bitework of a VA1 dog! Made me laugh |
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I have several scrapbooks FULL of pix of my dogs I NEVER GOT and never will get from major events. That's why I always haul my aged-dinosaur Nikon SLR to every event. (Not that I ever remember to take enough pix) Unfortunately my good telephot lens got scratched and then doggy-slimed on this trip, the protective UV filter having come off sometime in transit.
I wonder whatever happened to Doug Loving's 1,000's upon 1,000's of excellent photo files, taken at nearly every major USA event (and many other breed events) before he passed away. How I would love to go through them now! I, for one, will always miss seeing that old baby-blue van with the awning and Doug's smiling face near the rings and stadiums when I first pull into an event venue, not to mention all the great photos of my long-departed dogs he never failed to capture and sent me for nothing over the years.
SS |
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Can anybody comment on catalog # 25 and tell me what they think please? just want to hear what all have to say about him. |
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For anyone interested in the catalog of working class males, it is here:
All I can say is that hopefully the discourse generated by these videos leads to other videos being posted from future events and eventually leads to improvement in the dogs, handling and breed on whole.
I watched the vids first, then went back and looked at the names in the catalog and was shocked by some of the names.
Also, I can say that any dog that lets off the sleeve (stepped on regardless) could not be "pronounced" where I come from.
Finally, additional thoughts on the drives, they on whole did not look right to me and I think I placed it. How many helpers stand erect when driving a dog? I was recently instructed when working young, green dogs to use a running drive with my body very upright, which was quite difficult for me as I’d spent so much time working on my skip drive with my rear sunk down to use my quads to carry dogs fighting me. Looking back on the helper work, is it that they were at a similar disadvantage in that the normal drive posture had to be modified to be "less” which would be more erect?
-Calvin
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Myself finally somewhat tempered by age and experience, finally in possession of an ever-increasing measure of empathy and discretion for entrants who were not so successful as hoped, I will only share my thoughts and opinions from a few notably impressive performances this year. However, when I get a chance (the weather is too fine right now NOT take advantage of to train my dogs :) I will share the names of a few dogs I thought were truly impressive, perhaps when it rains a day or two from now, if anyone is still interested by then... In the mean time, I feel certain I can trust ya'll to beat the subject, and likely ME PERSONALLY, to a bloody pulp.
Enjoy.
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I really need to apologize to Heidi and her Dog Obi Wan I mis-typed not once but twice TeeJay Wilhendorf's catalog number. I do not want anyone under the impression that Heidi's dog gave the performance of which I commented below. I have seen him in training and at a trial and he is a very nice dog with good solid work ethic. The two 44 's should have been 46's.
Not as inconsistent as some of the german sieger show bite work but you are correct about the performances of 44 and 45. I thought 6 showed more than those two and certainly no less but got INS. I felt bad for 23 who got run over and stomped on twice, bad angle or other positioning but still unfortunate. At least the performance of 44 was better than his german sieger show bitework.
Colleen |
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Thanks for the results. Two litter mates for my GSD went VP6 and VP7 for 12 to 18 month male and female. Mines a long hair so he has his fault. |
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| wanderer |
Results for Sieger Show in San Jose? (0 replies) |
14 Apríl 2008 - 15:04 |
| Reply |
Mystere, I'm not disputing Ule's ability and if you have seen her work and say she is a viable candidate, I don't doubt that she is. I checked the Canadian National Trial results for 2007 and this is what I found:
Not sure why you think she is a better candidate than all the males.
Ule v Temar GSD Karen Sinclair 58 84 88 a
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Intersting wanderer that when you googled Ule you only went as fair as finding her worst score. Check these out...
Ule v TeMar, SchH3. GSD. Karen Sinclair. 100. 94. 96 = 290
Ule v TeMar GSD. Karen Sinclair. FH1 94
Ule's call name from birth was U go Girl....
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Mystere mentioned the Canadian Nationals so I went to see the Canadian Nationals score. It was not a deliberate attempt to find her lowest score, just a score in the Nationals since Mystere touted it. That is all. I'm sure she is a very good candidate for uni, I don't doubt that a bit. But there ARE other candidates as well and that was the point. |
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All those competing are under alot of stress. Let us not put more on them with our high expectations from the peanut gallery.
Texas is a State known for its hospitality. I hope that the contenders feel our deep affection for you all when you are on the trial field, regardless of who you are or the color of the dog you are handling. Getting so far, is such an achievement! Making it through all 3 phases, more so. The draw plays a part in it too. The dogs that are handled, are animals, and in this way unpredictable despite all the training that has gone into them.
I hope it is however a wonderful experience for you. So much time, training, investment. How appreciative we can be of those that do come so far and still go on further. But if they don't they are among the best in this country and there is always another year with these young dogs. Ravi has a very young male. I think that in and alone is an achievement that he can take him to the Nationals.
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