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Classified: Meet Matila!
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Neurological problem, seizures - help please (32 replies)
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| Tonight our nearly 7 year old had a seizure, like epilepsy. He recovered fairly quickly and was back to normal. Then about 20 minutes late he had another attack. This time when he came round he just kept pacing up and down, round and round, he went outside and had antother attack. We carried him in and this time he took longer to come round, foaming at the mouth and head twiching, for a long time could not stand or control his legs or feet. He has not had attacks like this before, but he has recently been quite ill with (apparently, x-ray showed fluid on one lung) a lung infection, treated with antibiotics and diprospan for 3 days, he recovered. He was not yet 100% but OK. I have a feeling something much more serious might be going on? He has not up til now lost weight or lost his appetite. I called the vet tonight, its late and I cannot get phenobarbitol or diaza...? but he prescribed another injection epinim which my husband has just tried to go and get. The dog has now got up and is doing the pacing again. Any ideas? |
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If your dog keeps having these seizures then I can only suggest that you take him to the ER Vet a.s.a.p. We can sit here and play mind guessing games until the cow comes up but while were playing (without blood test reults,etc) your dog deteriorating from lack of proper care.
Please take him to the ER vet.
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| There is not one here. The soonest he could be seen is tomorrow morning, I have spoken to my vet and my husband is trying to get the injection he recommended to try and stop the seizures just for tonight. I donīt think there is anything else we can do just now but wondered if anyone might have any clues...
by the way he was on antibiotics for 10 days, diprospan for 3, incase that was not clear in my last post. |
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You do not say where you live. Are you in the United States? Describe please in more detail what you saw when you said the dog was seizing. Did the dog become unresponsive ever? Is the dog still taking dirprospan? Diprospan can cause seizures, but it is possible something else is going on. What is the antibiotic he is taking?
Has the dog been eating today and drinking enough water? Have you taken the dogs' temperature? If it is high, it could be causing the seizures and you must cool the dog down. Do everything you can to keep the dog quiet. Dim the lights, turn off all radio, tv and try to keep the environment as quiet as possible. Try to minimize your being upset and try to calm the dog as best you can and get him to rest.
The pacing/agitation like behavior is likely related to post-ictal phase of seizing. However, the fact that he has had two in a short time is of real concern. If the seizures are very short and not frequent, it is scary, but probably can be just waited out and do all you can to simply protect the dog from injuring himself. Whatever you do, do NOT put your fingers or hand in his mouth for any reason or you may get bitten accidentally.
If the dog seizes more than 5-10 minutes at a time, this is a real emergency and he needs to be seen immediately. How far is the nearest veterinarian who would see you?
Good luck. |
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I meant to add as well that the dog having multiple seizures in a short time is also an emergency. However, I see from another post that you are in South America. If there is no vet who will see you, you will just have to hope that they stop and that he does not go into a status epilepticus, if indeed these are really seizures. Clearly, something is very wrong and he must be seen as soon as possible.
Best wishes for you and the dog. |
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If you cant get this animal treated then please dont let it suffer. |
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I had a gsd that had seizures every 30 days like clock-work for 3 years. No cause was ever determined, particularly for the "regularity" of the attacks. She was on diazapam and phenobatol every day for 3 years and THAT never stopped the seizures from happening. If the facilities are available, spend the money to have every test done, including MRIs. My experience was nearly 20 years ago and technology (and its availability in verterinary settings) has expanded a lot since then. |
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oso,the same thing happened to my girl,she had a seizure at 13 years old.
The vet ran all the tests and concluded it was most likely she had a brain tumour.
The vet put her on ephiphen which reduced the effects of the seizures.
Hope things work out for you.
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There is preliminary research out there that taurine can help stave off epileptic seizures. Don't try this as a medical regimen, but do try it as just *something* to try. Feed your dog a food very high in taurine that he'll also tolerate like beef heart or tuna.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=epilepsy+taurine&btnG=Search
Like I said, it's worth a shot, but just as it might work, it might do nothing, but I don't think it would do any harm unless you feed a food your dog doesn't tolerate. As always, take the advice of a vet, my post does not substitute nor count as medical advice.
/end disclaimer |
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| Thanks for all your input, I am afraid I have bad news. He seemed to calm down last night but seizures began again today and then he went into a state of constant muscle twitching, he no longer responded and we could not even give him liquids. The vet diagnosed distemper - a complete shock as he has always been vaccinated every year. But he has had a serious of minor issues and taken a lot of antibiotics, so the vet said his immune system was probably compromised because of this. Basically we hid the symptoms when he first had a cough and respiratory problems by using the antibiotics and the dispropan (3 days only) which seemed to help for a while, this started about 3-4 weeks ago, exactly the time scale for distemper. I have never seen distemper before and it did not occur to me. We were thinking more on the lines of tumours (lungs and brain?), but he had not lost weight or his appetite until today. We had to put him to sleep as there was no chance of recovery and I feel devastated. We will be re-vaccinating the other dogs tomorrow, luckily I donīt have any small puppies just now... |
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Dear Oso,
This is very sad news, but based on what you wrote last night, not unexpected. I would question the diagnosis of distemper unless the vaccines were ineffective or he was a rare dog who did not gain immunity from vaccination. He may well have had some other problem that only a veterinary pathologist could have discovered.
For what it is worth, you might find reading the following link helpful. If your dog did not have a lot of the signs they relate, it might be worth while to consider another possible diagnosis. As you will read, distemper virus cannot survive in the environment for any thing more than a few minutes. So if the other dogs were not in direct contact with him during this illness, or if he indeed did not have the virus, it might not matter if you revaccinate or not. As well, note that there is a syndrome of old dogs getting a "neurodistemper", meaning he might have been infected as a young dog or pup and the infection has just laid dormant all this time. But not knowing more, I could not begin to speculate.
In any case, again, I am sorry for your loss and i hope no other animals become ill.
Best wishes. |
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Hodie,
Thanks for pointing out there MAY be an alternative cause for symtoms/problems with Oso's dog. I would hate to see her revaccinate all her dogs and then have problems from overvaaccination....
I have titered my dgos for over three years and have never needed to vaccinate for distemper in that time....
Darcy |
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How was the diagnosis of Distemper made?
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Let me be clear that I am not one who believes in the "over-vaccination" stuff spread by a few over the internet. Nor do I believe that the problems which rarely surface when humans or animals are vaccinated are responsible for the downfall of the animals and their immune systems and every other ill that could possibly be conceived.
The reason to consider not to re-vaccinate is included in the post above. The virus dies very quickly in the environment. The other dogs in question may or may not have had exposure to whatever was going on with this poor dog. Oso did not give enough information for anyone here to make a guess as to what happened and unfortunately, lives in South America and may not have access to pathologists etc. If this were my situation, in this country, I would see to it that there was a necropsy done to hopefully come up with a definitive diagnosis. But that may not be possible in this situation.
Rezkats' question is a good one, and from the post I glean that it was made on signs exhibited by the dog before this final seizuring activity began last night. Oso mentions the dog having been ill and on RX medications, so there was some sort of physical history taken and that is probably all that led to the diagnosis.
Oso will correct me if this is not the case.
Again, I am sorry for the loss of the dog, especially in this way. |
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| Thanks for the comments, we have vaccinated the other dogs, just in case as they had been in contact with him. Hodie, you did not post the link you mentioned? I would be interested to read it. We did not have any pathological tests done but the vet was pretty sure of the diagnosis due to the charcteristic signs of the convulsions and the time period since the respiratory problems first started, however, I would be interested to read the article, to be honest I just had not considered this possibility before, also it had not occured to the vet either. I will briefly relate his previous issues, in case they have any bearing. He was a healthy and very fit dog until around 3 .5 years. then he dveloped a problem that seemed neurological and the vet at first thought it was cauda equina, but it was not. I did post abut this at the time, donīt know if the posts still exist. He lost all strength in his rear quarters and could not stand for any length of time (but was not paralysed and did not drag his toes, his tail was fine) This did not respond to steroid injections, which in fact made him more sick, at times he just did not get up and we thought he would not make it. Eventually following blood tests a bacterial infecction was discovered which the vet thought was affecting the spinal region and he was put on antibiotics and non-steroid anti- inflammatories, and recovered. He got back virtually to normal though never had quite the same excercise tolerance after that, although he was always eager to work and play. Last year he had a fatty cyst on his back which suddenly grew big, he would scratch it with his back leg and it would bleed and got quite messy, so we had it removed and he was on antibiotics again. Then during last year his toe nails seemed to go into growth overdrive and instead of being black as always, the front ones turned pale. After the last time we had the nails cut, in december, he developed an infection in one, antibiotics again. He did not stop limping on that foot, turned out there was a growth on the bone of the toe and so the nail and part of the bone was removed - antibiotics again. The the next thing was about 3-4 weeks ago when he started coughing, he also showed a symptom that I thought was neurological at the time - he would sometimes stand with his head down and twisted to one side. First treatment was antibiotics injections for 5 days and steroid injections fo 3. He improved immediately at first but on the 4th day went down hill again and was worse than before. Then we did the X-ray that revealed fluid on one lung and the vet said either an infection or a fluid-filled mass (no chance of doing lung biopsy as we donīt have the required equipment). So, stronger antibiotics. After a few days just lying still, he would eat a little and take rehydration fluid if put under his nose but would not move, I said goodbye a few times... then he suddenly got better after the diprospan injections and seemed to have recovered, he was walking, even runnng, wanting to play, enjoying his food, following me around, although both my husband and I felt he was not really OK. He lacked his usual spark and had little energy, this stage lasted about 7-10 days, I think. Then, the night before yesterday the convulsions started and you know the rest..in case it is of interest you can see his pedigree here www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/476053.html. I donīt know of the vaccine quality, but have only heard of one case of a puppy getting distemper after the first 2 vaccinations, this was not mine so I do not have the details, I have never personally seen a dog with distemper before. |
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Oso,
Here is the link I mentioned and there are others you might want to search for on neurodistemper.
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_distemper.html
The signs your dog exhibited do not fall into the classic presentation, that is for sure. If you never saw the dog in an active state of infection, with the horrible goop coming out of the nose etc., it is just difficult to say what was going on here. It may be that he had a brain tumor, or some other encephalopathy. There are plenty of diseases that could have caused the neurological signs you observed, especially the seizures. But the seizures might too have been caused by something else, including poor kidney function.
It will be a mystery perhaps as you may not have the ability to ever do anything definitive to find out. It is always very sad to loose a dog one loves. I will keep you in my thoughts and hope that all the other dogs do just fine.
best wishes,
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| Thank you Hodie, I did mention to the vet about the goo stuff I thought was typical of distemper, he said this was caused by secondary bacterial infections and we hid this symptom with all the antibiotics. He sees a lot of distemper in unvaccinated dogs and said the symptoms at the end were classic. But I do agree there is a possibility it was something else. All the other dogs are fine so far, fingers crossed...I will do some reading, and once again thanks for your concern and sympathy. Whatever it was I am pretty sure we could not have done anything to help. He was the best temperment dog you could think of, always part of the family and we are all extremely sad. |
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Oso,
I am so sorry for your loss. I looked up his picture on the pedigree and he was a beautiful dog. There are no words to ease the pain of your loss, I know— yet, I have felt that helplessness before and it brings tears to my eyes thinking what your family must be going through. I send you condolences during your time of sadness.
~beetree
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| Thank you beetree, yes, he was a beautiful and very special dog, loved by all who knew him...
just looked up the info- some things match, others don`t, he did not have digestive problms or lack of appetite, did not have nose or pad callous, but the apparent recovery followed by neurological stage 1-3 weeks later, that fits. We will never know. |
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I am very sorry for your loss. I know it must be heart-breaking. |
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I am very sorry for your loss. We will all keep your family and you in our thoughts. I am sure the rest of the dogs will be okay...You might clean your home with mild solutions of vinegar or choice of disenfectant like Peroxide or a none harsh one for pets.
Hot soapy water on all utensils and kennels will be good and treat your other dogs to yogurt and good fresh meats and veggies to keep their immune system up since they may be a little upset over their friend leaving them...
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| Thanks all for your sympathy. Just another thought, if the virus is so short-lived in the environment I do not know how he could have been infected as I am sure he has not been in contact with a dog with distemper (unless at the vets when he had the toe operation, that was in early jan). |
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Oso,
Sadly, you will never know what this was all about, but my experience and gut instinct suggests this was NOT distemper. There are a variety of other potential diseases and or conditions that could have led to the final seizure stage. What happened before may or may not have been related.
For now, all you can do is be vigilant. It might help to write down some of your thoughts, and memories about what happened when, just in case you have a defining moment where you remember about something happening and can come to some potential understanding of what happened. But, the best thing would have been a necropsy and that is out of the question. So let yourself grieve and honor his memory.
Best wishes. |
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Condolences to you & yours; God bless you for your valient efforts to save your friend! jackie harris |
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My sympathies on your loss. It is never easy, especially when they are younger, and moreso when you can't really even tell why things came to pass the way they did.
Just out of sheer curiousity, during the various odd ailments the boy went through, was there ever a tick titer run to rule out Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever, Ehrlichiosis, and Lyme? |
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They live in South America. |
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| Lyme disease has occured here in dogs, but is rare, and all known cases were from the coast (we live in the mountains) but no, we never did any tests like that. Heartworm occured to me, but also I have never heard of a case here, and the Dr. said there were no indications of heart problems, and the heart was normal size on the X-ray. I have read quite a bit now and almost convinced myself it may have been a brain tumor, only thing is there must have been a lung tumor as well, and if it was malignant the Dr. would expect serious weight loss which did not occur. Maybe it was benign but fits with the other overgrowth of tissues he had before?? I had a long conversation with the vet yesterday, he is still pretty convinced about distemper but I am not so sure. I agree we should have done a necropsy but at the time I was so tired and upset, and the vet so convinced of the diagnosis that we did not do it.
As for defining moments that you mention, Hodie, I would say firstly he was never exactly 100% after the toe operation although there was nothing to really pinpoint (vet says this indicates a geeral depressed state therefore low immunity and vulnerable to viral infections). One day he coughed a couple of times, but not really intense or frequent, could have been just an irritation. But the next afternoon I let him out of the kennel (he usually lived in the house but that day someone who doesnīt like dogs had been round) and he sort of staggered out with his head in this wierd position, downwards and twisted to one side, he made his way slowly to the house looking drunk and was coughing again. I went to tell my husband to say something was wrong, but by the time he arrived (only a minute or so later) he looked a bit better then went on to eat his food normally. But the next day he still had these symptoms of the head position (not permanently), cough and general lethargy, although was still eating. We called the vet who said there were signs of a lung infection and we started antibiotics and steroid injections (the latter just twice). There was an immediate improvement, but then after a few days he was worse, and I already explained what we did next. There were a few days when he would just lie down, maybe occasionally lift his head, occasionally get up weakly to change position. When we gave the diprospan there was an immediate improvment again. The vet thinks this is another indication of distemper as he responded to steroids but not antibiotics, but I think this could have happended with a tumor as well, reducing the pressure on the brain??. Although at this time he was still being treated for a lung infection, there were not really any severe respiratory symproms, his tongue and gums were always pink and his breathing was only slightly laboured, he had not coughed for a while. However the X-ray had shown a white area on one lung. Then he was "OK" (but did seem tired) for nearly 2 weeks before the convulsions started dramatically and out of the blue. The first one was just like epilepsy and he came round quickly and started behaving normally, but after the subsequent attacks he never got back to normal and was pacing, salivating profusely, at one point just standing looking at the wall, confused. At the end he had continuous myoclonal convulsions all over his body which is what made the vet suddenly diagnose distemper, he said everything previously made sense with this diagnosis. What do you think Hodie (or anyone else with vetinary experience)? I know nothing will change it now and we will never know for certain, but I would be interested to know if there are alternative possibilities. |
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| Another thing I forgot to mention is that several times during his semi-recovered phases he made a mess in the house, something that he never did before. We put this down to his general illness, but I have read that it can be a sign of a brain tumor.
Also there were never any indications of intestinal, or metabolic problems, (kidney, liver, thyroid etc...). never any apparent fever, though the vet pointed out that this can be brief and easily missed in distemper. |
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Oso,sorry for your loss.
To me it still sounds like a brain tumour.All the symptoms you are mentioning mirror what happened with my old girl
The vet put my old girl onto steroids and it created an amazing transformation in her condition.
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Oso,
I do not believe this was distemper, even more so now that I read the additional clarification. I believe it was either some serious neurological condition and an infection (which most likely would have resulted in fever), or, in fact, a tumor. Weight loss is not necessarily seen in tumors. And it could have been that he had something like a hemangiosarcoma, for instance, and that had metastasized to his lung, brain and possibly elsewhere (or another type of tumor is also possible) and finally it was putting either too much pressure on the brain, or, it ruptured and slow bleeding was the cause of the seizures. The steroids certainly might have helped some small bit in a tumor, but tumors can be so fast growing that within weeks to days the condition of the organism worsens.
My money would be on neurological, rather than distemper. The important thing is that you did all you could and clearly he was a lucky fellow to have someone who loved him.
best wishes.
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| Thank you Hodie, I am inclined to agree with you, though I am not a vet. Whatever it was I do no think we could have done any more for him and I do not think we made the wrong decision at the end, though I am still crying...
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Oso I am very sorry to hear about your dog. I can tell he was special to you. |
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I'm so sorry for your loss. I recently encountered the SAME loss in my beautiful 10 week old Golden Retriever puppy. He was the most lovable puppy. I only had him for 11 days total. I bought him from a reputable breeder. He didn't have any signs of any distress at all! He actually went on a mile walk the evening he went into seizures. He was put in his crate around 11 pm everything was fine. Around 1:30 AM I heard him barking and crying. I went down to check on him and it sounded like he had thrown up and had ingested it into his lungs as he was making choking noises. I grabbed him out of the crate and could see he was having a seizure. My son and I drove him to the emergency vet hospital. They immediately did blood tests which showed his white count high and he had a 106 fever. They had to put him under general anesthesia to stop the seizures. We had to leave him overnight and in the morning take him to our regular vet. When we picked him up he had just been sedated with phenobarbitaol to stop the seizing. The vet told me that he reran the blood tests and at that time everything looked normal! My regular vet needed to put him under general again to stop the seizing. I had to make the horrible decision that night to put the poor baby out of his misery as the vet told me basically he didn't have any prognosis. They made an "unofficial" diagnosis of distemper. The emergency vet tends to feel it was a liver shunt issue. I really don't have any answers to this event at all! I feel pretty unsettled about it. My daughter bought his sister and she's fine. I don't understand how a seemingly 100% perfectly healthy puppy can die so quickly from something no one can diagnosis? Has anyone ever heard of something like this? He didn't have any of the distemper signs at all...runny nose, discharge from eyes, etc. He had his first distemper vaccine and was supposed to be getting his second shot today. Any thoughts from anyone would be helpful. |
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