German Shepherd dog

I get that test on all my mutts,

but it only comes around once every two years,

there is one coming to Westford Ma, which is down the 
road from where I am.

My girl Sam got hers & they said she was a VERY confident girl,

she got nicer scores than her mom!

I am going to bring Theo, Dana and Tessie, your dogs have to be 18 months or older.

My sister went one year with her chihuahua,

It's a fun time, just make sure your dog is not weary about a black umbrella,
Sam was afraid to go near the umbrella before we took the test, so I started
feeding her in the open umbrella, and when it was time to do the test, they said,
make her go closer to the umbrella, and I just moved closer to it, and she got up
and tried to sit in the lap of the lady holding the umbrella!
They were laughing at her.

Sam's just a big lap dog anyway!

www.atts.org

They have to be 18 months old to test, we are having one in atlanta ga. soon.

So how does a breeder tell you what kind of temperment an 8 week old puppy has?  You see it all the time this pup is suited for sport this pup is a family dog??  What gives?

While I am NOT an expert on this, I can share my one recent experience.  We participated in a TC, and the "wierd stranger" for that particular test was the helper from a schutznund club.  He wore a floppy hat and pretended to walk on a cane.  There were 3 levels of confrontation; each time the "weird stranger" came closer to the dog and handler.   During each of the three levels, the judge observed and notated the dog's reactions.   

1. First the "Weird stranger" hobbled by hunched over on a cane at a distance of about twenty-five yards.  He called out in a odd vouice, "hey- yay that's a nice dog ya got there."

2. Second, the "Weird Stranger snatched up a big tree branch and came closer to about fifteen yards in a somewhat threatening manner.

3. Third, the "Wierd Stranger' advanced on the dog and handler with very threatening gestures and shouted while waving the tree branch and his arms.  He stopped at a distance of about ten feet away.

There were different breeds of dogs at this test and it was interesting to note how they all reacted.   Some dogs were protective (guard dog breeds and herding breeds), some (all from the sporting group) stood their ground without barking but refused to let the man come nearer.  A few dogs hid behind their handlers. 

The umbrella did spook some dogs, as did walking on the tarp and the wire ex-pen grating on the ground.  There were 3 gun shots at the TC test.

Also, the judge atthis particular TC test made a point to tell the handlers that she felt it was better to wait for maturity (after 2 years of age) to really assess the dog's temperament and reactions to the tests. 

Hope these few observations help, and good luck to all at the TT and TC tests!

Cathy M.

 Some of these so called temperament tests are a bunch of crap run by people who have only a novice understanding of canine behavior. 

 Saxtonhill,

If you are participating in a good Schutzhund club with knowledgeable people, you surely will be better off to learn about and test temperament there.

hodie:  Some of these so called temperament tests are a bunch of crap run by people who have only a novice understanding of canine behavior. 

That's for sure. This temperament test for GSD's is little Is little different that the GSDCA temperament test (where testers are somewhat familiar with the GSD breed--but rarely have any experience with dogs capable of doing schutzhund work). They would rather see a dog recover (after, inially, being shy, barking, growling, hacking, etc). Being indifferent, non-reactive does not get full points in a pass/fail test.

When the local AKC GSD specialty club hosted a GSDCA test (where the late Bob Penny evaluated) in the late 1980's, I was advised by a well-meaning person not to test my immature female (AKC--going back the the bloodlines I had started with in 1960's) because she was in heat. "Oh, BS--how ridulous", I thought!! This should not negatively impact her behavior. So what if she had no "training" to prepare for the "test"!

So, yes--she passed with no problems.

It's too bad people are preparing for a "temperament" test.  This should be, by its very name, not a product of conditioning.  I would also think that younger dogs would show their inner selves better than older dogs who are more a product of training and environment.

Perhaps I should start my own testing program for older pups!

that the test is based on that particular breed of dog

Sounds like breed profiling ;-)  This test, desinged in response to Breed specific legislations (BSL), also includes an "umbrella" test.  "Breed stereotyping, like racial profiling, ignores the complex environmental factors that contribute to canine temperament and behavior."

Assessment of Canine Temperament in Relation to Breed Groups

Some of these so called temperament tests are a bunch of crap run by people who have only a novice understanding of canine behavior.

I think sometimes this type of test can show you more about a dogs temperment than schutzhund.

I think there's alot of truth to both statements, as you can see in the following tests designed for government agencies (FBI, NIJ, DHS).

SWGDOG SC 3 – SELECTION OF SERVICEABLE DOGS

Appendix 3.1: Selection of Serviceable Dogs
 

I feel that the initial "sociability" exam could use a serious revamping, but overall it's pretty inclusive.  I condensed the exams to 14 pages here: http://www.ehretgsd.com/DogEval-WIP.pdf

It's about $25.  a pop.  Nice racket, put up a flyer at the local dog parks & rake in the dough.

Larrydee: You need to see the Volhard tests, among others. Many folks, especially guide dog people and others investing heavily in their puppy choices, need temperament data on young pups.  Imperfect, sure, but worth something.

Appendix 3.1: Selection of Serviceable Dogs

I don't like the stranger testing protocol, or at least the assessment of it.  I think most GSDs with good instincts would bark considerably because of the wierd manner in which the person was acting.  First of all there is eye contact, which most confident dogs will interpret as a challenge, then the waving of arms and moving from side to side.  It is abnormal and the dog should react to that by barking in a warning fashion and standing their ground.  If such a person approached me in a lonely place and my dog was with me, I would hope that the dog would react in a manner that would tell the stranger that he is on thin ice and had better not approach too closely.  I would want my dog to have these instincts:  unafraid, stand ground and WARN by barking.  The "excellent" result in this test is that the canine maintains a friendly posture and does not startle!! WTF!!?  (I am assuming here that the stranger is an adult.  In the case of a child, I would want my dog's instincts to sense that and react in the manner stated under the excellent category.)  But if the stranger presents a threatening behavior, I sure do want my dog to react to that by warning (but not overt and uncontrollable aggression).

3. Stranger test – Have stranger to act in an unusual manner. Have the dog attached to a fence in an

unfamiliar setting with a 4 to 6 foot leash. The stranger will make eye contact with dog from 20 to 30

foot away; when dog makes eye contact, the stranger should begin acting in an unusual manner, i.e.,

making loud noises, waving arms, moving from side to side, and advancing towards dog but always

maintaining at least a 10 foot distance from the dog. Then the stranger should become friendly with

the dog.

Fail - Canine retreats and/or shows any aggression toward stranger

Average - Canine startles, backs up a few steps, but when person acts friendly the dog

immediately wants to greet stranger

Excellent - Canine maintains friendly posture and does not startle.

Mindhund:  Don't know what you mean by your trainer's methods.  This is not a thread about training methods, and no training tools have been discussed above.  It is about temperament testing.  Nice though that you feel you are in the right place for training your dog.  Kudos for that.

Wanderer, I read the links others have posted, that was what I was the methods and information I was referring to.  I agree that TT is something that should be done if one wants to train a working dog. 

I'm with Louise and Hodie. I read the Temperament Test and expected response grades. Some of it is a bunch of hooey, IMHO. I've kept GSDs for years and any normal GSD, schutzhund trained or not, is going to warn off a threatening stranger. And this is an undesired response?! After I read the TT grading part, I decided that the Volhard puppy test is probably a better guestimate of a dog's eventual temperament. JMO, of course.

Larrydee:

>So how does a breeder tell you what kind of temperment an 8 week old puppy has?  You see it all the time this pup is suited for sport this pup is a family dog??  What gives?

MVF already mentioned the Volhard test and others, but another thing is when you raise a litter of puppies, you get to see how their personalities and dispositions develope. If you've been with the little nippers since Day 1, it gives you better understanding of how each one is. From that, you can ask the customer what they're looking for in a dog, and help find the best match for them. I find when a stranger tries to do the Volhard test on the puppy the results are often skewed because the pups don't know the new people, and thus can act different than they normally do. I've watched a customer try doing the Volhard test on a litter of my pups... the pups just seemed confused by her strange behavior.

Shepherd Woman:  Louise's opinion means nothing to me.  Any and everything I've ever put on this board, she shoots down in a matter of minutes or when ever she gets around to reading it. 

LOL see what I mean?

Funny how the so called Mods of this forum won't explain why they deleted the other Temperament Testing thread I started a couple of days ago.  There was nothing wrong with it and I think the Mod thing has gone to their heads, lol.

We've not had a TT opportunity local since 2006. I've watched their website for a while and no TT opportunity is listed for the entire state of Ohio for 2008. Stinks.

I actually emailed them about it to confirm the info (no TT opportunities in Ohio), and they suggested for ME to find a club, suggest they sponsor a TT opportunity and to contact them, and go from there. I thought that was their job, not mine. And Ohio is a big state-a TT opportunity scheduled in northern Ohio could be as much as 5-6 hrs one-way drive for me, which is just not practical considering gas prices. So I dunno. We know a good lady who's about 2 1/2hrs one-way from me that does CGC and TDI (therapy dog) testing/certifications so I do THAT instead of TT. After all, a GSD has to have a good temperament & clear mind whether it'll pass TT or TDI certification according to what is expected-I realise they're very different in nature, but still overall demand a good head on a dog, which the end product is what I'm considering. The passing of EITHER should show a GSD has good stable personality/temperament, wouldn't you think? And I subject mine to walking on a closed ex-pen, tarps (they'll play tug-o-war happily with noisy tarps) and all that stuff here at home just so they don't think it's frieky and get plenty of socialising and play, so they're decent about alot of things expected in the TT. But if the opportunity came around within a 2hr driving span one-way to get them TT tested, I'd see to it I got some GSDs to it!
I DO belong to 2 official clubs, but their overall attitude seems to be, it takes money to hold a TT opportunity,  and the response for involvement (people signing up to get their dogs TT tested) is low so the 'end' doesn't justify the 'means'.

Shepherd Woman: And Louise grow up hun!  You are showing your childish side again!

Midlife or old age crisis Louise?  Hmmm got me wondering now, LOL  Bored, lonely?  Need attention?

Wow. Cool set-up there, daryl. Thanks for sharing it-might consider such for future litters. I've heard of most, but never thought to do starter-pistol firing for pups. Thanks for sharing that-love the color coding, too.