German Shepherd dog

My rule of thumb is as soon as all the adult teeth are in, a correction collar can go on.

choking a little puppy you guys must great trainers.

Dee,

I can only speak for myself. I never ever use a choke collar. Yes, I will use a prong collar on the dead ring way, way down the road. Not on a puppy tho.  Never a choke collar.

Try using MORE PATIENCE with the puppy. Why would even consider using a choke collar, let alone on a puppy?

John Kennedy

Held,

I agree....................................

I think it al depends on each individual dog, but to clarify the one statement, Choke chains are made in a variety of sizes because full-grown adult dogs come in a variety of sizes. 

Wow, that's great.  I am not that good, I do have to correct my dogs, just not much while they are puppies.

just like to add i wouldnt put a pinch on a young pup or a check just a normal collar and TRAIN TRAIN and train some more that way you might never need to use a pinch or check .....

My puppy is five months old on the 10th, he has been on the long line for a week and has been trained in the house for two months.   He does sit and stay, and comes on command.  He is now doing a long stay with me out of view.   He is going over obstacles and climbing.  We are always socializing and bringing new things into the picture as well.  Today he took his first swim and chased wave's.  He has been introduced to cars and roadways, dogs and cats, water and heights, he has seen horse's and cows up close and sheep soon.   He has heard gunfire and city noise's, he is house broke, crate trained, and loves to ride in a car.   And he showers when he gets all muddy.   Oh and he does a real mean bark and hold on my older female....lol, thats just play time.    I just prefer to have him wear a chain as opossed to a collar.  He has never needed to be forced or corrected beyond a light tug and a strong word.  We use a lot of rewards and praise as well.  After all he's only a puppy.   He's gonna be a damned nice dog when he grows up.

I won't put any kind of training collar on a pup under 4 months except maybe a martingale for a particularly obnoxious pup. My dogs live in my home, they are NOT kennel dogs, and I require manners in my home. Under 4 months we just use a flat buckle collar. Our Boudica can sit, down, come, and heel a little bit and do very short stays. She is 14 weeks old. But you bet in a few weeks we are getting rid of the cookies and the buckle collar and teaching her to work.

Quite frankly, any bleeding heart who thinks a correction collar of any kind on a pup is wrong has no idea how the collar should be used and has never been exposed to someone who knows what they are doing with it. There's a difference between being fair but firm and just cranking a dog around.

If you ask me, teaching a pup to accept appropriate correction at a young age actually builds confidence, and accepting pressure in the bitework later is a piece of cake. Fairly applied, it strengthens the dog. Unfairly applied, it crushes the personality right out of them.

Deeswolf- my dogs, too, jump up and down with excitement when they see me pick up their training collars.

Its amazing how no one stops to think about the way dogs interact with each other, and how they maintain their hierarchy naturally. People ask me in public, "Your dogs are so well behaved, why do you make them wear that collar?" to which I answer, "They are well behaved because they wear that collar!"

If you don't know what you're doign with that kind of collar, no, you shouldn't use one. But don't bash people who are more experienced with that kind of method than you are. 

My Black male is almost two and finished with his obedience, he learned fast and was easy to train.  He never particularly cared for the chain and now wears only a flat collar.  I take him everywhere and he's very well behaved with only a look or a soft word.  My Two Females still wear chains and dont mind them at all.   The one female is very strong willed and sometimes she still needs a tug when she's misbehaving but its only a reminder and not a true correction as in training.

Everyone has a technique they prefer and everyone is training an individual, every dog is different as far as I'm concerned so nothing is etched in stone here.   My dogs get excited to see me with a leash, same difference.    Or all I have to do is say outside or go for a ride and boom!!  its like the circus is in town. 

I have never used a prong by the way, but I have used shock for specific problems.  If someday I need a prong I will use one.   I think patience and resolve are better tools than rushing or short cuts in training my dogs.   There is also something new to learn everyday for us both.   

My real problem now is I'm getting older and not so energetic anymore, its a lot of hard work.   Thats why I started my last pup a little earlier, to spare me some wear and tear..lol

Good training to you all.

Brent.

I don't know DC, but it's the same emotional bullshit every time.  

My response was in regard to the comment from Held "Choking a little puppy you guys must great trainers."

Sue, could you please point out to me in my post where I bashed or name called? If I did, it was not intended, as I make a point NOT to bash and name call on ANY public forum.

I have learned over many years, that the ONLY thing two trainers can agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it wrong.

Your first two sentences Deeswolf.  Where are all these people and what responses were you making reference to?  One person made an incomplete statement and you jump on everyone else just because we do things different.

I think I will refrain from being so stupid as to answer anyone who asks what people use on their own dogs because even that can somehow be turned into an emotional argument on this board.  I was agreeing with Don Corleone's post.

I have used a fur saver on every dog i ever kept from 4 mos old to 15 years old...why do i want a band of matted down hair on any of my dogs.. The fur saver keeps the dogs hair from matting and leaving a band of irritated skin and hair underneath..They also slip right off , when putting the dogs in the kennel and eash access back on dog ...

Just because your dog has a fur saver on his neck doesnt mean your choking a pup...how ridiuclous for anyone to judge...the question was     choke collars.....maybe thats not a good description of a chair around a pups neck.....a band collar is not useful to me or any of my trainers I train with or attend training in......

A leather collar or a nylon flat collar comes right off over the head and if not so tight you cant get a finger under it,,they can slip it right off on the way down the sidewalk or in the parking lot...I have had no luck with a band collar.  I like to use the chain,,not to choke a pup, but to insure that that pup is still with me when he decides to go south and I'm faceing North.

Don, Jesse and myself were among the first 6 and none of us even made reference to Held's post let alone agree with it.

Also, be so kind as to point out where I insulted anyone. I suppose you could say I was calling Held a bleeding heart, but last I checked, that pales in comparison to what some people call an insult around here. Explain to me how saying a correction collar must be used in a balanced way "bashing"?

I didn't bash anyone, just explained my opinion on training collars. I thought I made myself pretty clear in my view that a training collar is not for everyone, but rather a personal choice. No one has the right to call anyone right or wrong, but I did take offense to Held's blanket statement that inferred those that use training collars "choke puppies". I felt it was a grossly ignorant blanket statement, and I'm not afraid to say so. I guess that's the beauty of the internet, people can misread the nuances of your communication.

Did I call you out by name? or Don? I often agree with much of what you two say. Excuse me, I'll make it a point to list exactly who I am referring to in the future so no gets confused or defensive. I wrongfully assumed those who did NOT respond like Held did would just figure out on their own I wasn't talking about them.  I was also referring to the kind of people that Deeswolf brought up, the kind that think her puppy is being abused because it wears said collars.

Whatever, it's like nailing jello to a tree around here.

 Now, I'm NOT bashing anyone, but this statement made me think: "Your dogs are so well behaved, why do you make them wear that collar?" to which I answer, "They are well behaved because they wear that collar!"

Shasta,

I assume that you are talking about my well behaved dogs, I'm not really sure.  Thats the problem with boards, lack of real communication.  

My dogs are so well behaved because we all live together as a family, we (my human family) spend every waking moment with them.   I mean I still have a life but my dogs are a part of it.  Being together so much brings much understanding and communicating to the mix.   Your kids learn in much the same way.     Training is only a small part of the total picture.

I dont train like others here, its not Schutzhund or sport.  Its like raising children.   I dont own that type of dog.   Anyway everyone calm down and agree you all do things differently.   And Held your alright, I know where your coming from.

Right now I'm playing a muddy version of russian roulet at the back door with a bitch in heat and a stud who both have free range of the place.  I could put them both in a kennel but it would be like locking your kid in his room for two weeks.

Never a dull moment.

I must say that there will always be a different way of looking at things. I see a puppy that is less than 5-6 months old not being strong enough to handle a choker on the live ring. That is just me, not that other people are wrong or not.

The whole thing started out as a question on what age should it be used. That tells me that it was not as an introduction tool but rather a training device. Not saying it is wrong, I have, since I was 11, always been told by my departed grandpa and people just recently, to make it a game. Have fun with the pup. I think that once you put a choker on, and it is on the live ring, that takes the fun away from a puppy. When the pup is not having fun, they usually lock up which for new handlers, get the handlers even more frustrated. That can lead to abuse or the person just giving up. I have seen this too often.

I still agree with my first post and with many other people that posted too. We all have different ways of training. Try not to have an open ended question. Ask the question in more detail, so that there won't be so many off the wall responses.

John Kennedy

two moons,

Yes, I agree, that everyone else would agree with your last statement.  It just seems that some people want to jump into choke collars right away when things don't work for them. Those people that just jump into it, without proper knowledge, are the one that usually gets so frustrated over the fact that the dog locks up and doesn't want to do anything and take it out on the dog.. I seen that with a 3 month old female. Not good. I didn't mean to offend you at all. Just saying what I have seen on and off the farm.

John Kennedy

Years ago I used a choke for all my training and when my wonderful dog aged I discovered I had scarred not only his neck, but his trachea.  I was devastated that I had been so horribly negligent and surprised that no one warned me of the dangers of choke collars.  Unless you use it infrequently, you will be sawing away at his trachea and scarring his neck for life.

With my next dog, I trained on a roll collar exclusively, and we earned a UD with even higher scores.

If you are weak or feeble or small, and your dog is powerful, you may not, of course, be able to get away with a simple leather collar.  But force of personality goes a very long way.  My small mother when in her 60s and early 70s commanded attention and obedience even from a few big males. 

John, 

No problem, I wasnt offended.   So much is lost with the written word as is lost in training when attempted by amatures, and I am an amature I'm sure.

Its hard to truely express thoughts and idea's with the limitations of a post here and there.  Even real time chat leaves a lot to be desired when trying to understand others and their meanings at times.   Everyone could stand a little patience and understanding.

There are people out there who are dangerous to themselves and others, including their pets.   It could be anything from fixing the car to trying to re-wireing a house, or training a dog.   They should have guidelines for selling hammers.   I dont think anyone can do anything about the fools, idiots, and morons who infest our planet.    I'm sure people do harm with choke chains.   I can't imagine yanking on a chain so hard as to cause physical damage but I know it happens.  

Powerhaus, please.....

I hope those who want to know find place's like this to ask these questions and learn something that will put them on the right path.

I have,  thanks to everyone.

I have been training for 30 years and only in the past 5 years have I used a prong collar. None of my puppies have a prong or choke collar until they are at least 6 or 7 months old.

I used chokes for years but realized they can damage a dog's throat. The prong should fit like a flat collar and let the dog correct itself and they will.

 Some dogs need a prong and some don't. It really depends on the dog......just use common sense and go have some fun training AND when you get pissed QUIT.

I too, prefer a prong but it is simply too extreme of a correction for many pups, especially when they don't even know what a correction is. I'll start with either a choke or flip the prong backwards so it works like a martingale until the dog is comfortable with what I'm doing.

i always start puppies out with harnesses, as i encourage pulling for going up the big hill this city is built on. the first collar i use is a martingale, which fluffy is still wearing at 7 months. i put a choke on spunky at 4 months but rarely used it, keeping her pulling in harness pretty much until winter hit, when she was about 10 months i started using the choke since i didn't want to get pulled off my feet on icy sidewalks. she was so used to pulling she ignored the choke and strained like crazy, making horrible gagging noises. i tried a halti-collar and she pulled so hard against that, she rubbed her nose bare. i constantly got remarks about how she hated the halti, and to take that awful muzzle off her, sigh, i gave up on that method then. i remembered something i read in a book by jack london, maybe it was white fang. something about wolves running in a pack and the leader throwing his weight into the shoulder of any wolf trying to pass him. one day i shoved my knee into spunky's shoulder and she jumped back, surprised. the next time she tried lunging in front of me i repeated it. it works with fluffy too. i have both dogs in harness when we are out, and can easily switch them both from pulling like crazy to go uphill to walking calmly, by my knees or slighty behind, on loose leashes, which are still attatched to the harnesses. i only switch to the martingale and choke when we are around other dogs, as spunky seems to forget training at that point, and suddenly starts lunging like crazy to go sniff butts.