*Disclaimer* This post is NOT a debate, please let's not do another work/show catfight.
I'm trying to do some serious research and gather myself some information. I am curious about the availability to V rated working line stud dogs who have also produced V rated dogs, residing in the US. I am a showline person and my working line knowledge is very limited, (but I'm trying to learn!) so any input in regards to any particular working lines that consistently produce V, KKL1, and very low ZW would be deeply appreciated. Thanks!
there's quite a few DDR males with good V conformation. www.altostland.com has a few, I have to admit. adelhaus also has a very pretty black young male named Walker coming up, sired by Universal Sieger Camp Muhlteich.
There are many more, those just came to my mind quickest
This is a really great dog and I hope that people are using him. He is located with Gottfried Dildei in Florida and was the Champion at the DVG Nationals in Tulsa, OK and also competed in Germany in the past 2 years.
Sorry, I just re-read, "Wolf" Iltis von der Wildsau, to my knowledge hasn't produced any Vs, but his ZW, last time I checked was 78, alright, retreating, so as not to make a bigger fool of myself!
Uber, I agree, alt has some nice V rated males. The one that is a real eye catcher to me is V-Yello Haus Iris. Does anyone know what he has been producing?
V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3,FH2,IPO3,KKl-1lbz, OFA Good - he has produced dogs with better structure than he, beautiful and excellent in the work, as well as excellent hip results including OFA Excellent. none of the dogs mentioned have produced V offspring except for the ones who were bred in Europe before being imported (Zidane, Basco vd Luter) - in Europe the dogs are titled younger, bred younger, have older offspring and many more trials, conformation shows and judges - easier/more chances to get titles and V ratings on offspring than for stud dogs in this country. If you wait until dogs in the USA have titled, V rated offspring before deciding to breed to them, you may very well miss out on a very good dog by waiting too long. Look at the offspring even if it's untitled, not conformation rated (yet) to see what the stud is producing (or not) and take that into consideration, as titles/conformation ratings can be very difficult to come by in this country - does not mean the stud dog is not producing excellent progeny fully capable of titles/V conformation ratings.
OK I see Molly since titles are so hard to get people should get in line to buy from you. The fact is Eagle pups can not do the work . The next fact is almost 30 litters over a 100 pups some as old as 6 and nothing with a SCH title.
As for titles being hard to get that is Bull while it does take time and dedication most newbies can do it wiht a good club and help. That is if the pup has the drive to do the work. Something that your pups are obviously not showing or you would have one titled and be posting it all over the internet.
Molly , I thought that the amount of pups your Eagle is producing he would have a pup or maybe 2 out of 300 get a title. But I may be wrong and my assumption that so called stud just may not have that in him.
Oh come on. 300 puppies? I guess you didn't get through the counting part of pre-school. Why don't you continue your research since you are so obsessed with Eagle and my program, and find out how many puppies he's actually produced. Have you ever seen an Eagle pup work? I guess not, because they do VERY well, as anyone who has seen them or have them in their clubs can tell you. As I've said before, I don't CARE if you buy a pup from me or breed to Eagle. I have no interest in selling a pup to someone like you, or offering Eagle to any female you own. I have a waiting list for people who want Eagle pups, some have waited over a year and won't settle for anything else.
He is on this thread because he is a working-line dog in the USA who is V in conformation and 25X Schh3, FH2, KKl-1 for life and an excellent example of a stud dog available in this country who CAN and HAS produced super offspring. Anyone who is interested in him can contact me and get the proof in video, pictures, or contact info of trainers and owners who are working his progeny.
Let's find out what the other stud dogs mentioned have produced IN THIS COUNTRY - titled offspring? V rated dogs? I think not. Yet. And if the poster waits until they have before deciding to use such a dog in their program, it will be too late, the dog will be too old or deceased before the "proof comes".
Get a life, LAWoman. Why don't you tell us about your V-rated Schh3 dog? Or what he or she has produced? How about what you have produced, titled, handled from your program? Let's hear it.
Please don't hijack a thread where myself and others can actually learn something. I'm a big girl and I can do my own checking up without someone trashing someone else's dog.
Preston- that's the same dog that caught my eye on their site as well! Very dry, firm dog, beautiful topline, nice front.
Thanks you all so very much, keep the input coming!
Now, which of you is kind enough to throw out some quality lines one should get to know if they are trying to learn working lines? I know of a few dogs ( I had a great Yoschy grandson once) but not many. Are there particular lines in which one must watch out for nerve, structure, hips, etc? Are there lines that produce more consistently than others?
And can we leave out bashing current dogs? I'm talking about the dogs current studs are being linebred on.
KCzaja, do you get SchH USA magazine? In the Mar/Apr issue there is an article by Claudia Romard on training. She and her husband have a kennel name of von Talka Marda, if I'm not mistaken.
The reason I mention them is because in that article they show three of their dogs that are both V-rated in conformation and V-rated in performance, and BSP dogs to boot.
2002 V2 4xBSP Quaste von Ankenrutt - 2000 BSZS V85 is the female, Hektor and Javir are the males. I believe Quaste is the mother of both of them, and that Javir was Universal Sieger in Germany.
So to make a long story even longer, it's possible to have a workling line dog that is V in conformation, and produces the same.
Somebody correct me if I've bungled the facts - the coffee hasn't kicked in yet.
As for working lines; Karthago, Fasanerie, Tiekerhook, Haus Antwerpa, Busecker Schloss (old), van't Leefdaalhof typically bring good working characteristics. I am also partial to the Artus Lunzholz - Kalo Peko Haus - Pike Schafbachmuhle line.
Not V but SG Kimo von der Sigisliebe. He has 6 Sch 3 progeny out of just 6 litters. Maybe more just what comes to mind. All breedings done here in the States.
V Merlin v Conneforde, US National Ch, North American Championships tracking champion, WUSV x 2 (high placing), ETC. I had a litter from him out of a crok 2-3 female, and one of my club members has one and is training with him. That pup is gorgeous and coming along very nicely. Very nice pups! As soon as they are old enough to look up at you, they are staring you in the eye and giving what I call "schutzhund face" through utter genetics.
I have V Verdi von Karthago's litter sister Vinetta von Karthago, SchH3, IPO3, FH2, KKL1, and I am in love with her. She has EVERYTHING and she is also charming and very affectionate. I would love to have more just like her. Other owners of V litter Karthago have written me, and they are also in love with their dogs. They are experienced European Schutzhund people as well, not newbies who are easily impressed.
V-Troll v Kassler Kreuz Schh3,FH,KKl-1 - black dog, nice temperament
V-Aik v Nordenstamm Schh3,KKl-1 - extremely strong dog, super temperament -
V-Rex v Karthago Schh3,KKl-1 -
Casch v Salztalblick Schh3,KKl-1 - not sure if he's SG or V, very good dog (serious, strong)
I'm sure there are others - some on this thread have been bred a great deal, some of those have one or two titled progeny - others have been bred a lot and have none (yet) in this country - others haven't been bred a lot. I say if anyone is interested in a dog don't wait for the titled offspring, instead look at the dog himself, if you like him and like his pedigree, look at the offspring who are working, if you like them - go for it.
Others in this thread have touched upon this (Molly and SKI) but to expand... just food for thought...
The ability/desire/attitude to title and koer a working line dog in this country is simply not the same as that in Europe. Attending the BSP last year, I would guess at least seventy-five percent, if not more, of those dogs had breed surveys (I'd have to find my catalog for exact numbers). I would be curious as to the number of those GSDs breed surveyed at the AWDF, North Americans or Nationals. Look at our recent world teams (2006 comes to mind). IMO, the emphasis just isn't there, its more on training, titling, competing.
Then filter that down to the regional and club level. Having driven upwards of 20 hours and a minimum of 6 hours to a conformation show/breed survey, how many with those at club level or even regional level get a conformation rating or breed survey their dogs - especially when there are judges that give out G's or KKl2 based upon coloring - sable, its a working line dog, not even really looking at the dog. Not very encouraging.
On the bright side, I do see the tide changing (attitude), but as others have said, by the time one sees what a dog can produce, both in the work and structure (title'd and koer'd), its usually too late.
Just to add a bit to Karlas post. I have seen some iffy dogs get SG's and V's. So something for people to consider who are real hell bent on kkl before breeding is to check the judge giving it.
If its important then I would say its more important to see the judge on the breed survey then to care about the judges in the trial score book.
While it is true that some iffy dogs get SG's and V's, the same holds true for titles. Dogs have good and bad days, judges can be overly generous or overly critical be it a rating, a breed survey, or a title. Anytime humans are involved in any endeavor, there is a matter of "judgement". That's why its important to view the total package. Look beyond the rating and scores, read and understand the survey, educate yourself and look to the dog - watch dogs not only trialing but if possible in training and their progeny.
Molly stated: " I say if anyone is interested in a dog don't wait for the titled offspring, instead look at the dog himself, if you like him and like his pedigree, look at the offspring who are working, if you like them - go for it. "
I agree. I've seen dogs (in other breeds) that were good dogs who had few or no working offspring of age. People took the chance that the dog could produce. Sure enough they did. As a matter of fact they became the hottest studs out there. So the people who bred to them before they became popular wound up with great offspring for a fraction of the cost that the others that waited.
Of course it doesn't always work out but then again the breeding may not work if you go with a top stud. Not matter what it's always a crap shoot.
I agree, waiting is a tricky and risky game...I have looked into a lot of the dogs you were all kind enough to post, and have been impressed with how many of them have many V rated dogs in their pedigrees.
My beloved V Carol vom Arolser Holz, SchH3, FH1 (100pts.) FH2, KK1, a/e normal placed tow time V in the German Sieger show at ages two and three, has.and does produce V / KK1 progeny.
I always have at least a couple of V Rated, KK1 working line dogs in my kennel/breeding program, three in residence at this time, & more coming. http://www.frauengarten.net/Carol1.html
Whoops - completely forgot about "T" - Carol - I knew there was one (or more) I left out. Excellent dog, another one for the list for anyone who wants a working-line stud that can produce excellence in the work AND structure!
A lot of very nice V rated dogs have been presented here in this thread. I especially like V-Eagle and V-Carol. Hat's off to the owners of these fantastic animals. If you want to talk about perfect GSD temperament with nice conformation, here it is in both of these praiseworthy dogs. Congratulations to both owners.
T (Carol) is blushing under all that fur, but not so hunbly as not to showcase his daughters and son from his first breeding with his dainty-but-bitchiy wife, V-Gabi Aroler Holz, SchH1, KK1, a-normal.
V3 Walberta v. Arolser Holz, SchH1, FH1, KKQ, a-normal,
SG (Young Dog Class) Waldegrund ARolser Holz, BH, (SchH1) a
Police K9 Walo, Certified Police K9 in Great Britain
This litter is linebred on a full sister to my wonderful old go some of you may remember V Pallo Arolser Holz, SchH3, KK1, a1.
Ok, Ok Gabi. I'm getting to them!
Gabi (the shamelss hussy) is rather rudely reminding not to forget to brag up her daughters, produded while she and Carol were seperated for a time.
V Daria Arolser Holz, SchH1 (282 pts) KKK1, a-normal. (From Snooopy Fasanerie) and
V Georgia Arolser Holz, SchH1, KK1, a1, (from Ken Aroler Holz)
Gabi was bred to Eagle in March for an early May litter. She asks you all not to mention this to Carol, but I'm thinking sooner or later he's going to find out.
Not V but SG Kimo von der Sigisliebe. He has 6 Sch 3 progeny out of just 6 litters. Maybe more just what comes to mind. All breedings done here in the States."
I bred to Kimo about 5 1/2 years ago. He is a super dog and one that I think didnt get used enough. He is the sire of my B litter which resulted in my current SchH2 female Brat, her brother Brisko who does awesome bitework but lacks control due to my sisters "inefficient" handling but he is titled in obedience/tracking/CGC and has done agility, herding, therapy, demos with children, etc... We also have Brutus and Betty who are both dual purpose certified police K9's that have had very successful careers, Besta who is a working service/mobility dog trained and placed with her owner to help her, Bosco was sold as a pet however was tested for police work at 12 months and did very well, they wanted him and had nothing but good to say about him, I however choose to place him in the pet home I had lined up, Bushi lives with tripplet boys who were 3 years old when the pup came home to live with him, he has been tested in SchH and will be in training for obedience/rally now. He would have done SchH if his owner didn thave triplet boys to take care of - I guess that takes up a lot of your time :) Bria is titled in obedience/CGC and has played in SchH as well. Kimo's ZW is 78 I believe, we had Brat go 'a' normal OFA good H&E, Brisko is 'a' normal OFA excellent H&E, Betty and Brutus were both xrayed hips/elbows/spine before beginning work and while not sent into OFA they looked good.
Brat has a litter of 1 week old puppies now, after she is finished with pups she will finish her titles and hopefully add another SchH3 title to his progeny list. Brat got her SchH1 with High Protection, HIgh SchH1, High in Trial with a 94-80-97 and her SchH2 with the scores of 91-82-93. (Obedience issues my fault :))
My Kimo grandkids out of Brat are just as awesome. At just 15 months old they are working and being trained for SAR, police work, SchH and service work and all are excelling with two already 'a' normal hips /elbows.
We also have a super nice Kimo son in our SchH club from another female. He is SchH3 and a very strong hard male, very nice in the work, has a lot of heart and brings a lot to the bitework field. I know there are others as already mentioned.
And something else that is very important to me is longevity. Kimo is going on 12 and still living and doing well.
For a stud dog in this country, for not being bred much at all, he produced a high percentage of titled/working offspring it seems.
Yes, Casch is here now. Super dog with excellent pedigree . He will be on my website shortly, meanwhile he can be found on this site search Casch v Salztalblick.
Yvette, check his website, it'll get you an email to Chris, one of his friends, and I'm sure she can put you in touch with him...believe me, I've tried myself. Far as I know, Chris still has Ginta, and Franka, and Spur...not sure who else she has, but I don't know where Wolf is...if you find out, PLEASE let me know.
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