German Shepherd dog

Indeed. It would lessen the snarkiness on dogs simply because of their coat-length.

I will believe it when I see it!

Darylehret

I guess you are not putting Long Coats in the same vein as having weak nerves, your reply is not over clear on that, Plus Are you Guys talikng about Showlines or Working Lines or Both

It seems some people not saying the posters above do, treat the Long Coats as if they have a diease or something

For sure being a long coat has no bearing on the Dogs ability to work in Schutzhund,

The only thing which goes against them there on a muddy wet day is the time it takes to get them cleaned up Sometimes they look as if they have 'been pulled through a hedge backwards.' That is an English saying or Phase

Steve

ATARTHS,

nice to see that you just copied and pasted my post from a previous thread.

About the coats: There is a lot more going on than what meets the eye. If the SV can figure out how to change the standard without allowing dissident groups and organizations a foothold into the FCI and VDH, when and only when will they allow coats back. A wrong decision could cost a monopoly! We just have to wait and see!

Chris

Cate

As you say in SchH it matters not whether the dog is a Long Coat or short coat they perform just as well as each other

least ways they do over here in Belgium and Holland and Germany,  even if they do not in other parts of the world like the USA and Britain

As for Showing thats a different matter of which i know nothing about, Never had a Showline

Sibersee

           Hope you dont mind , I was too lazy to right it all again,copy / paste is faster. Anyway thanks for the info on the subject, truly worth to know whats going down with this issue. Take care,

Also Chris!!!!!!!

YAAY!

They still won't do well in show, but would be allowed to compete in the BSP again, eligible for the Korung.

SS

Daryle,  I've been a collector of old standards for quite some time - because standards do change with time for a variety of reasons including political. I think you need to get your historical facts right and doing so may put this in a different perspective.

First of all there had ALWAYS been distinction between long coats with and without an undercoat.  Those without an undercoat have always been undesireable. Your statement  "Stephanitz was president of the SV until his death in 1936, during which time the long coat was determined to be undesireable due to being "greatly diminished in weatherproofing and utility".  The founder saw fit to change his mind by disallowing longcoats, and with some sense of reasoning behind it. is wrong on several accounts.  Long coats with undercoat were allowed to work, trial show AND KKl1 until the 60's ( I think is was 1968 but may be wrong on the year) when they were moved to KKl2 status. 

It was only in 1999 that long coats with undercoat where disqualified. My personal opinion is that this was a money based decision and nothing more. The SV had been extremely successful from the Martin era on in exporting the system worldwide. Prior to that time individual dogs were exported but most countries had developed a base of "home grown" GSDs that these imports were mixed with.  By exporting the "system" and most importantly by controlling the judging of dogs within that system by the use of SV judges, there was a commercialization of the breed that exceeded anything prior. This encourage the wholesale importing of dogs IF you wanted a dog that would go V or VA since for many decades the SV judges only put up imports essentially denigrating "home breds" ( even tho out of import stock) as unworthy. I believe it took 30 years in the US before the first "home grown"( but of course from import parents) was granted VA status here in the U.S. The problem was they were so succesful in this wholesale exportation of the system and dogs that by the late 90's they had flooded the market AND the natives were getting restless about not being able to achieve VA status in their own countries at least . What to do What to do?  By disqualifying coats from the breeding population you essentially immediately reduced your breeding population by about 25% ( the penetrance w/in the breed) thus making the remaining dogs that much more valuable (basic economics - reduce supply - raise prices)

Thanks TIG, a more recent revision helps explain why the recessive gene is still present in today's bloodlines.  I had doubted the authenticity of a typewritten pedigree that a relative had showed me, she had much pride for her longcoat from the 60's, and I respectfully held my tongue.  I reviewed some history of dogs in the 30's to 50's, that referred to their longcoats as "faults", so I guess it was easy to assume the change was early in the breed's history.  I didn't grow up with gsd's, and I am not yet middle aged, myself.  The original standard written in 1899 was revised in 1901, 1909, 1930, 1961, 1976, and 1991.  What changes have been made would be interesting to see, I think.

++1936, during which time the long coat was determined to be undesireable due to being "greatly diminished in weatherproofing and utility".  The founder saw fit to change his mind by disallowing longcoats, and with some sense of reasoning behind ++ 

Sure..because he probably finally had one from his own breeding and then it was okay..p.THEN perhaps found there is no truth in saying the coat is diminished in weatherproofing. In fact I have seen some German Shepherds with better weather resistance in the coats then some of plain stock hair.

My preference is for stock hair, but I have always  felt it rediculous when the stock lonhairs that have been in the breed for so many generations were deemed faulty. It has no bearing on temperment and does not effect working ability or hinder..
BS

Debi

All excellent points, and TIG, thank you for the historical perspective. I think we all know what constitutes a true longcoat (without undercoat) and all agree that it is a breed/performance fault.

And we all know that the physical appearance and structure of our favourite dog underwent an evolution that was caused not by the written standard of the time; rather it was caused by the continued personal preferences of the judges of that era.

I think the real sticking point is when certain dogs have "borderline" coats, i.e., somewhere between plush and long and these dogs are judged against dogs with similar coats and suddenly a judges disregards one of the dogs because of its coat length. This is when one is left wondering why one dog passed and the other did not. Of course there can be other reasons as well, and hey, a decision must be made.

I think we all agree that the plush coat on a dog of correct structure makes for the appearance of a beautiful animal. But in the end, if the lock stock coat is allowed to return to the conformation ring, I do not think it has a ghost's chance of making it to the final classes. I think the borderline coats are a poor reason to fail a dog in the conformation ring, when all will look the other way if the dog has "a"3 hips and "a"3 elbows as long as he works and trots correctly. At least such serious faults are not allowed now in the VA class. I do not remember who said it here, but we have serious health issues with the breed, and by removing the long stock coat we do diminish the breed pool.

The long stock coat will be with us as long as there is a GSD unless we refuse to breed anything that carries the long stock coat gene. And of course that will not happen. The S.V. will bring about this change for one (1) reason-MONEY.

Regards,

Bob-O

I agree with the posts, we have other issues that are more important to deal with, health should be the priority. We need to quit designing the GSD . I for one would like to see them, they have gathered a large following, and a very loyal one at that..

It is no secret that I like longcoats.  I see no reason for them to be excluded from breeding, but is is still a breed fault and should be treated as such, just like any other construction fault such as short croup, weak ears etc and considered in proportion to how it affects the dog as a working dog. Obviously, it would be a real handicap in the show ring as it cannot be covered up by clever handling, but should still be considered as part of the whole dog, not automatically put behind the ones with correct coat irrespective of how good a dog is underneath.  I have had 2 of mine surveyed in UK (Percy Elliot) and one got Class 2 with the comment "this dog would easily be a Champion if he had a normal coat"  for Nyrvana Hotspur and the other, Greenveldt Jago in Nyrvana got Class 2 with the comment *Has sufficient qualities to be useful for breeding despite his long coat.  Were his coat normal he would have been graded Class 1"  Both came from litters where at least 5 generations of ancestors were all normal coated.

Margaret N-J.

Long Coats or short coats makes no difference to the quality of a gogs performance in Schutzhund competitions

leastways not over here in Belgium, although there is less long coats that i have seen working compared to short coats, but the ones i have seen perform very well on par with the shortcoats but then we may be behind the times over here compared to ther countries

Regards the Show Dogs i know nothing about the showing side of Dogs,

But have seen a Double world Champion G.S Show Dog plus many other Top Females ofthe Showline side, so i cannot comment on what is what

Steve

Daryl,  A number of us have criticised the banning of SLC for years because of the genetic diversity issue - not that it did any good. But that is one reason I applaud the GSDCA because an AKC registered SLC can be bred and can be titled in SchH or herding in the US. Re the work - coats have always "done the work" both in the sport , obedienc,herding and as police dogs. One of my personal favorites owned by a friend had her SchH3, FH, CDX all by the age of two and half AND was a natural born herder on top of that. Never had a herding lesson but gathers the neighbors sheep and returns them to the pasture when they get out when asked to do so. Many working dog people and obedience people actually sought them out because of that special partnership I mentioned above.

Blitzen Have to agree with Steve. I've seen you make this claim several times and to me it  "doesn't hold water" (no pun intended) for several reasons.  At best it might apply to a LC with no undercoat but that is NOT what we are talking about here. Next Germany is not the Artic and I believe many parts of the US have winters as severe or more severe than in Germany. When I lived on the Canadian border it was not unusual to have -20 degrees w/o windchill and sometimes even lower. None of the GSDs I've known had any of the problems you mentioned tho granted they did not live otuside 24/7 which brings me to your claim that "tending" ( i.e. herding by any other name) dogs do that in Germany. Now I am more than ready to be corrected by someone living in Germany but my understanding of the herding world there is unlike our range stock in the U.S. that their sheep are in fact barned or confined at night. Thus the use of dogs to move them along the roads to get to the fields they will be grazing in the day and the use of dogs to contain them in those fields because at least in some parts of Germany it is/was not common for those fields to be fenced.

Tig

I can guarantee that Germany  is no colder than here where i live in Belgium As i said ilve no more than 50 kms not miles as i said in my post above that will be about 40 miles from the German Border and i have been to the North and South West and East side of Germany in the winters for at least three of the years in have been here in fact 6 weeks ago it was Minus 5 degs centigrade here then and it was about the same in Germany,which is cold not not unbearably so. it never bothered the Dogs at all they rarley go into the kennels of a Day time and when they do they have the Kennel but nothing at all inside they sleep on the floor inside the Box, No Blasnket or anything else, a waste of time they bring it outside and drag it around the pen

I used to have a Plastic Basket inside but they were forever trying to drag it outside but of course the opening was not large enough so i said okay so sleep on the floor this was four months ago and they are fine, They are as in as good condition you can get them, So weather is no problem its the way they are fed and looked after which counts

All my Dogs from a Collie Cross to Terriers to a Lab + Staff bull terrier and G.S,s have always lived outside when in England , and England is about the same as over here for weather conditions winter, spring, and Summer, and as wet

Never have i had the slightest problem with any dog living outside 24/7 in over 50 years of keeping Dogs So i take what Blitzen says with a pinch of salt, unless he lives over here and can prove it then there is little point saying it, and he could not prove it even then because it is not true

I have an idea it can be cold in Canada my niece lives up in the Okanaga other side of Vancouver perhaps not spelt right but she says it gets cold up there, but i always say A Dog used to living outside from a Pup will always grow a coat to match the elements. its nature for it to do so

Cate its no theory, its true as i said 50 years of keeping Dogs outside the house, Grow a thicker coat  to those that live indoors

My Border Collie + moved over to Belgium with me, Lived outside since he was 8 weeks old

Had no kennel or pen to put him outside in so he lived in the house for ten days whist we got sorted out and built him a kennel and Run

His coat went dead and dandruff . His eyes lost there sparkle it was Early in the Feb when we moved over Snowing and very cold 

As soon as the kennel and run was completed, he was put outside, Never a bark from him. and not much more than a couple of weeks his coat came back to its normal condition and the sparkle returned to his eyes

He just could not cope with the heat or dryness in the House

Believe it or not although it was cold we turned off the Central heating in the house whist he was in there he could not stand the conditions of living indoors, so we lived in there with a coat on

He died late last year over 14 years old, a great Dog Still missed and always will be, Buried in the Rose Garden two yards from his kennel

One more comment on this - keep in mind that  have said  repeatedly - dogs with LONG, SOFT coats with little or no water proof undercoat cannot survive on their own in winter climates. I also said that dogs with harsh, coarse guardhairs with thick water proof undercoats can survive.  Essentially we are talking about 2 different coats in the longcoated GSD - the one with soft, hanging guardhairs with little to no undercoat. Those are the dogs that probably would not survive on their own. Then there are the long coats with harsh, coarse guardhairs and a thick water proof undercoat. These are the dogs that would survive on their own.

Steve, keeping dogs in kennels close to the German border isn't exactly the same thing as dogs tending flocks 24/7 without any shelter at all.  That's not a fair comparison. And, yes, of course dogs raised outside in a cold climate will develop thicker coats than those raised inside. However it will not change the texture of the guardhairs or add sufficent undercoat to a dog that is not genetically programmed to have those characteristics. . The final length of the coat is genetically predetermined by modifers that tell the coat when to stop growing. They actually "turn off" the growth of the coat at a predeterminded length. Environment only controls so much, the majority of how the coat looks in an adult is in the genes.

Steve, how many times do I need to repeat myself? You are comparing the lives of your modern dogs to those of the orginal tending dogs, the dogs for whom the standard was written. Do you really believe that a dog living in a kennel faces the same challenges as the dog that is outside tending hundreds of sheep 24/7? Those dogs are working hard enough to radiate body heat that melts the snow and then it refreezes when they are at rest. Do you work you dogs hard enough that they would do that too?

We are talking about the GSD's, the  tending dogs the original standard was written for and about.  Not dogs living outside on cement in kennels where you can see them from the kitchen window. How can anyone  understand why the breed standard asks for certain characteristics, like stockhairs, if you don't return to the roots of the breed? The standard is not written for and does not describe your dogs or my dogs sitting in sturdy kennels 24/7. It addresses dogs tending hundred of sheep acting as a living fence keeping them on the right track in the fallow fields and away from crops.  My poodle used to sleep outside in the snow too. That didn't make him a GSD.

hmmm.  Some points to ponder.

There are many long haired dogs living outside 24/7 in extremely cold weather.

The "standard and qualifications" currently used to decide if a GSD qualifies for breeding, have little to nothing to do with sheep herding.

A long coat GSD, IMO, is an absolutely beautiful animal, better looking than a normal coat GSD.

A long coat does not preclude a GSD from performing as well as a normal coat, in police work, military work, nor any other work, even tending sheep.

There are many things in life that are not condoned because it "would appear" that it would be a problem, but has not actually "proved" to be a problem.  It is human assumption often, that decides what should be or should not be "done".  Take for instance the flying ability of the bee, or the basketball playing ability of Spud Webb, who was 5'7" and won an NBA slam dunking contest.  Yes, one could argue that Spud Webb was an exception, but the bee is not, yet on paper, both would and have been shown to be not what one would want for their respective "jobs".

I would like to know from someone who raises wolves, coyotes, or any other wild type of species, whether or not their coats are different from a Long Coated GSD, and if so, how they differentiate?  I understand that there are LC's with and without a proper undercoat, but all long coats are currently refrained from breeding.

I lived in Cleveland, Ohio for about 30 years, near Lake Erie, and the winters there could be tough.  May not compare with other locations in the world though, but I have seen log coated GSD's living staked out there, and they did not seem to suffer anymore than normal coated GSD's, and in fact, seemed to weather (pun intended) better than the normal coats.  Is is a shame that they wre staked though, but that is another thread.

One more point to ponder.  If someone states that long coats should not be bred, then it should also be said that any normal coats that are bred and produce long coats, should not be bred.  Almost every line of GSD's produces some long coats.  Is that nature trying to correct us, or bad early breedings by the SV?

Well, as I understand it.  ALL long coats, regardless of undercoat thickness or whatever, and regardless of where they live or if they have shelter or not, all are frowned upon for breeding under current SV and other organizations rules.  If I am wrong, please do correct me.  As has been stated, many can not tell a plush coat from a long coat, and it is subject to personal and political interpretation.

I am not arguing that long coats should be considered disirable.  To each his own in that regard.  Same goes for whites.  My stance is, as yours also seems to be Blitzen. that the judges are the problem.  Everyone seems to agree on that.  Why do they just issue a blanket prohibition against this or that, without taking the whole dog into consideration?  Unless of course, it is a dog belong to someone in "the click".  Some things of course are abviously undisirable, such as having five legs or three eyes, but some things such as coat color, size, and length of air, should be considered in the context of the whole dog.  Why is a black GSD okay, but not a white?  Why is a sable GSD okay, when the sought after coat has been tan with a black sadle?  Why is a cm too long so wrong, when there are (as we all know) dogs being forgiven for bad elbows, etc) (VA 1's even)?

In my humble opinion, the whole dog should be taken into consideration for KKL.  Would a completely tan GSD be prohibited from KKL by the SV, if the dog was the "schitz" in every other aspect?

Lest I be trashed, I want to make it clear that I am going to do with the breed as I see fit, and not as someone else sees fit.  My dogs are my dogs.  My home is my home.  If I want to paint my home hot pink, I will do so.  If I want to breed long hair GSD's (of which I have none), then I will do so.  Obeying the rules of the SV, GSDCA, USA, or whomever, in the regard of breeding dogs, is akin to obeying the wishes of the Democratic or Repliblican political parties and voting for whom they want me to vote for.  Ain't gonna happen.  If I am a Republican and "they" tell me to vote for McCain, and I don't agree or like McCain, I will vote for who I do likje or agree with.  Same with breeding dogs.  I will breed what "I" think will produce what "I" want.  This is the way that most people in the world think.  It is a small and select few that think otherwise.  Yes, I follow the standard as a guide, but not to the point that I would exclude a dog because of a silly centimeter to tall.  I would not exclude a dog with a long coat if the dog was exceptional.  The rules would.

DoRight, IMHO, the standard should always take precedence over personal likes and dislikes.  In that sense I really don't have a problem with the SV telling me what is breed worthy, what not.  If I wanted to breed GSD's I'd not start out with a dog with a long coat or any other fault that would DQ it from obtaining a KKL or a V rating. 

We will all have to wait and see what the SV decides.  It seems like every once in a while, we hear about the SV reconsidering it's postion about long stock coats.   

Steve said that it doesn't matter if the long coat is soft or not. I was responding to him

No snow in Germany either? Not even in the early 1900's when the breed was being developed?  You're going to not believe this either, but the colder the temps the better chance a dog with a long soft coat has of surviving in a snow storm. The warmer temps are a lot harder on soft coats. I never said there were sheep in the arctic, but there are dogs there that tend. I stated my experience is with dogs in the arctic where long coats die or are killed. Why would you think that tending in a snow storm in Germany would be any less hazardous to a dog? Again , you are just not comparing apples to apples.  

Are there shepherds here from the turn of the century who worked their dogs in Germany when the standard was generated.?All I see here are posts from people who breed and own long coats and who keep their dogs inside the house or in kennels. I am not talking about modern dogs, TIG.  I guess I'm not making myself clear clear? No, I have never tended with a dog anywhere. I have however worked dogs in all sorts of weather as have many of my friends and they all have excluded dogs with long soft coats from their breeding programs. They proved to be just too much grooming and maintenance in all weather conditions. Burrs, mats, ice balls, heat stroke, staying wet too long.  Let's just assume for a minute that it never snows anywhere in Germany, never has. How do you think a dog with a long soft coat would fare in the rain?  It does rain there, doesn't it?

I think you had better do some reading on tending in the late 1800's, early 1900's. It was significantly different then. Dogs were out for days with their flocks as the farmers owned much larger properties at that time. Now the average sheep farm is around 10 acres, so certainly the modern dogs get to sleep inside the barn at night.  Read Ulf Kintzel's articles; he is a professonal shepherd from Germany now living in NY. PM him and ask him if he ever tended with a dog with a long soft coat.

http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-articles.html

5. I will look at the links you listed.

I understand what I see and read just as well as you, TIG. I haven't challenged your intelligence or suggested you have comprehension issues becasue we don't agree.  You are talking about modern dogs and obviously own and breed longcoats yourself. I am talking about dogs of the past and why dogs with LONG SOFT coats were eliminated by the SV. Why do YOU think the SV doesn't allow them anymore?

ONE MORE TIME - I said a long SOFT coat could not survive because it's not weather resistant.  Isn't that also what YOU said?

A few questions for you:

Where do you live? Does your long coat have a soft or coarse coat? If you are in a cold climate, has your long coat ever developed ice balls on it's pads or anywhere else? Mats behind it's ears that need to be trimmed? Is he or she hard to dry when soaked to the skin? I'd guess if your dog doesn't not have a soft coat, you will be answering no to most of these questions.

I looked at your first link,s one is broken and the other shows sketches of dogs with shaggy coats.  I don't read much German. They look to he as if they have plenty of texture and would be water proof. Have you ever read the breed standard for all other herding breeds?  None call for soft coats although some allow for a good bit of length. A long coat is not always a soft coat.

I'm done with this now. These debates always lead to bad blood between those who breed coats making all sort of excuses for doing so and those who don't. I'm not going there.  If you truly believe that you are right and a dog with a long soft coat could survive, then go for it. Nothing I or anyone else has to say is going to change your mind. The SV had the finla say IMO and if they feel that the long coat is an asset to the breed, then they will revise their thinking. My first GSD was a coat, he collected burrs, mud, matted all the time, formed ice balls in his feet and coat every time it snowed here in PA. His coat was very soft and he had little under coat. That dog could not have survived tending 24/7. Even if he had a barn to sleep in he still  would not have made it.

Blitzen

Just come hom e from The Dog training and its now past midnight 

I am not talking about Dogs tending herds of Sheep or anything else, i am talking about the Climate over in Germany who you think is so Harsh the Dogs will suffer if they are working in it

You do not believe me when i continue to tell you the weather is never that harsh here that Dogs working in the winter will suffer because they have a Long Coat  soft or otherwise

The Only way for you to know is to come over next winter and  see for yourself

Regarding Snow we get less and less each year and this includes Germany if anything we get more snow where we are than they do because we live very close to the Ardennes

We get very heavy ground and air Frosts but they lift in the Mornings it stays below freezing during the day but not every day.

I cannot vouch for Dogs of any type of Coat  or how the weather  affects them other than the places in have lived and i do know my own area and those close to me and i will not have you thousands of miles away say i do not know what i am taliking about, because that is being arrogant on your part,

I would not dream of contradicting you regards the climate in your country it would be stupid of me to do so and wrong Regards you talking about Dogs Growing a thicker Coat when living outside that is another thing i have said probably more than once

And finally i am not bothered about the problem of Long or Short Coated G.S Dogs in the way some of you people do. I do not show Dogs and i do not breed Dogs

My interest lies in the Competition of Schutzhund ,that is all i want the Dogs for except of course for companions

As it is my two are young, one is just 16 months Old and is due to take his BH but he will take his SchH1 a week or so after as he is well trained up to that, the Long Coat is only 9 months Old, but already showing a lot of brains and is very promising

Do right and fear no one

Did i see you mention Homing Pigeons or over here Racing Pigeons

I have been a pigeon fancier for 56 years, and race only National and International Long distance races

They were the reason i moved over to Belgium to live from the UK. I wanted to compete against the Belgians, Holland, Germany on there own ground,

Steve

As regards Rain, i have already said we get a lot of it and this winter has been no exception a really wet winter over in Belgium, Germany , Holland and Even more so in England with Big Floods  twice this winter

Burrs we do not get or very few. Hot weather in the Summer sometimes last year it reached 42 degs Centigrade but normally about 28 to 30degs centigrade

The Dogs cope okay with that, beause that is the reason the roof is on the Pens to break the heat of the sun beating down on the dogs when they are not moving around

Steve

Very true.  I apologize for my part and I'm sure I'm not the only one blushing......BUT at least almost everyone stayed on the subject of LSC, which is quite an accomplishment considering how far off topic  threads have been known to sway!

Zuchtwart,

when you get off your high horse who was on topic or not, maybe you can clarify which judge and what "SV delegate day" you are talking about. I am assuming you are talking about the meetings which each Landesgruppe (Region) has for their delegates. The "true" delegates assembly is still quite some time away. The dates are May 31 and June 1.  The individual meetings in each region serve to elect the delegates and have discussions about the directions the delegates should take. After all, the delegate's capacity is to voice the opinion of the region, not his or her own. Also, it is not for sure that this topic will even be on the table. ATARTH quoted me earlier here from a different thread. The SV has a regulation that a topic can not be brought up for 4 years if it is voted down. So personally, I don't think that the topic will be brought up unless it is safe to do so.  But we just have to see.

You wanted more information and I believe I gave it to you. I just returned from Germany last Friday and spoke to a delegate of a region. The SV has been working on the proposals for the long stockcoat for about three years now. The issue is not to change the breed standard and get it approved by the FCI and VDH but to keep dissident groups and orgnaizations out. The reason the SV has a monopoly in our breed is because of its standard. Example now: If the long stockcoat is permitted again, the FCI standard has to be changed. There are at least two big organizations right now in Germany which promote the breeding, showing and titling of coats. There might even be smaller groups as well. None of them have a chance to get approved because of the standard. What do you think will happen when the standard is changed? Do you think that these organizations will self-implode and its members will happily join the SV? Nope, most likely not. They will now have a strong case to get their own approvals. Do you think that this will help our breed? There are voices in Germany who think that it does not matter. After all, other breeds might have two or more organizations, the Mali for example. Personally, I think the reason our breed is where it is, is due to the SV's century long monopoly. And that is something I do not want to see changed. And once a couple of organizations are admitted into the VDH, more will follow. Just look at Raiser's SV-2000. Our breed will be watered down. If you don't like the practice of one organization, just join the next one. You can't compare the GSDs to the Malis, certainly not by sheer quantity.

I hope that you could follow that logic. If you lived in Germany, you would understand these concerns. It certainly does not matter much for most people living here in the U.S., because the longterm effect will take a while to rear its head here. And even then, most people will continue to do their own thing: breed untitled dogs, long stockcoats etc. It does not matter, because there has been a hardcore group following SV-regulations. But if there are changes, then it will have an effect here too. BTW, I like coats and I do not care if they are permitted for breeding or not. I concern myself only with the politics and the changes in regulations. A lot of things are personal tastes and that is ok. In the SV, there is plenty of room to develop tastes. And that is what I like! I will belong to that organization until the say I pass or get out of dogs, whatever comes first.

Chris

I stand corrected, Max Bear. Somehow I got the stupid idea that it snows in the Alps and that they raise sheep there.  Thanks for the information.