The Pedigree Database: German Shepherd dog

Just heard that Kougar has Pannus and his mother and grandmother had it. Has this been showing up in other breedings being done from dogs down from these lines?

Thanks for any info.,

Rick

Why dont you email Molly and ask her?  I imagine out of all of us she would know best.

~Cate

continue reading the Kougar thread.  Lee really enjoys spreading lies and rumors and she's just doling out more of the same bulls#$t.  Here are the facts.  Arrow (Kougar's mom) and Xinerobella (Kougars' grandmom) did not, at any time, ever in their  lives, have Pannus.  Them's the facts.  If Lee can provide proof that they did, she can have at it.  The problem with Lee is, she only deals with rumors and lies to defame me and others who she doesn't like.  She is a disturbed, confused and unhappy person.  She doesn't want to hear the truth, lies and rumors are what she understands the best.

I have had one dog in my lines that developed "old dog Pannus" at 11 years old - this dog was not related closely to Kougar, and never produced Pannus in her offspring, was diagnosed by a veterinary optomologist as the Pannus NOT being genetic but normal "old dog Pannus" developed because of age.

I am always happy to answer any questions about myself, my dogs or my program.  I have nothing to hide and everything to share with anyone interested in the truth.

In fact, I have a bunch of letters, statements including one from an attorney that would enlighten anyone who would like to know Lee Hough's true nature and <poor> temperament.  Why she has been kicked out of no less than (probably more than) 5 USCA clubs, and is well-known in the area as being a person to avoid at all costs.  I am easy to contact privately for these letters and statements, all of which have contact info for the persons who sent them, none of which were written by me.

molly

"Just heard that Kougar has Pannus and his mother and grandmother had it."

ramgsd, it's better to keep your mouth closed an be thought of as stupid as opposed to opening it and removing all doubt.

Pannus runs in the breed, PERIOD. The reason for it is that it IS genetic. Some dogs get it very young, as have two I have, and some get it very old, as my SchH 3 female did. UV light at higher altitude is THOUGHT (but not proven) to exacerbate it if the genetic predisposition is there.

I personally will not breed a dog I have here who is the daughter of one of the Siegers of Germany, beautiful, wonderful temperament, and absolutely capable of titling. She is the most expensive dog I ever owned and it makes me very sad that I had to make this decision. But it is the right decision. The other dog is a rescue dog from fine working lineage, and she is almost blind.

 IF someone knew there dog had pannus at a young age, it would certainly be reason NOT to breed. But too many do. LEt me be clear, I am NOT saying Molly did. 

So perhaps this thread is finished? It is a moot point. Unfortunately, pannus is a not uncommon problem IN THE BREED! JUST like pancreatic issues, soft ears, hip and elbow problems and a host of other medical issues.

Some pups get it. Some don't., even within a litter. Seems to be more prevalent in male pups with large bone, fast growers, but not always. Of all the problems I can think of prevalent in the breed, give me Pannus anyday compared to the rest because it goes away on its own in a couple of weeks, almost never to return, no long term issues.

SS

Ah Shelley you're thinking of Pano - the long-bone pain puppies sometimes get.  This Pannus is an eye problem, as Hodie said - prevalent in the breed, not proven to be genetic (according to the board-certified veterinary opthomologists I saw for my one dog that developed it at 11 years old) - though they did say if it developed in a young dog, that genetic component was "probable" - old dogs, especially GSDs, can develop it as an "old dog thing", not necessarily (or proven in any way) genetic.

molly

Shelly,

I believe the discussion is about the opthomological disease, pannus--not the orthopedic disease panosteitis.

Gayle

Here is a pretty clear picture of Arrow, Kougar's mother, taken at 11.5 years old, showing her nice clear non-Pannus affected eyeballs.

Lovely pic Molly.

For information, here is a description of GSD pannus:  http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0087.htm

Is breeding a female that was supposed to be retired when she had DM a good idea? Maybe rick from ohio should ask his new friend in Pittsburg about that?  Perhaps you can start a thread about breeders who have yet to title a dog from their own program, that would make for interesting reading................

Kougar's dam, Arrow (Adra), is on my list of most-favorite-ever GSDs I've personally known. I would have taken her home in a second, if only Molly would have let her out of her sight. Super smart, healthy, drivey, confident, strong, beautiful to look at, good with children, strong in protection, focused in tracking, keen in obedience.

And she definitely did not have Pannus as a young dog. (Just in case the doubters don't want to take Molly's word for it.)

Christine Kemper

www.blackthornkennel.com

isn't pannus easily treated, as far as i know its not genetic or serious as long as it is treated.

please tell me if i am wrong!

Molly, that dog is simply STUNNING!

I have a dog with Pannus.She is out of Dutch and German working lines.  She develeloped it at 18 months.It is a auto immune eye disease and it is genetic but is made worse by exposure to sunlight. There are a couple mof different forms of it and my dog has the worse type. It is treatable with cyclosporin and steroids. I have to treat my dog daily or she will go blind. She also has allergies and a bad hip. She is 12 years old and still seeing!

Why would you post such a question to a public breed board?

Wanderer, thanks for posting the link to that article.  It was a good overview.  However, after reading it, it's not clear whether or not this condition is heritable at all, in the sense that one dog can pass it on directly to offspring. 

Any idea where to find out more facts about this condition?

Yvette

Thank you Dee, she was a wonderful girl, very special to me. 

molly

I agree this type of post is uncalled for and totally unaccceptable. You should never make this type of charges without 100% proof.

DesertRangers, I have to hand it to Molly, she handles this crap a lot better than I would.

Blitzen,

You mirrored my sentiments. Molly handles this bs much better than I could ever imagine myself capable of.

Jackie

Kudos to Molly for not only completely (and honestly) answering the question that was posed but also for raising (and sharing a photo of) a very fine bitch, obviously in prime condition in the twilight of her years.

Thanks for the info. I have heard great things about Kougar and wanted a little more info. and when I heard of possible genetic defects I wanted clarification. I'n my research on the metter if found this link  http://www.gsdworld.net/invboard/index.php?showtopic=5102&hl=pannus not only about Pannus but also concerning this line.

CEPH: that is another step in the research. I don't know Molly. In dealings with other breeders of other breeds I have found that they are not always forth cumming with that type of info. Sometimes it is best to see who has offspring out there off these dogs and see if it is being past on. (not saying that she is like that, but I don't know her) And let's face it some of the bigger name breeders here don't have the best reputation for honesty.

DAWGMA: I've always went by the rule that most intelligent people go by. "The only stupid question is the 1 not asked'? So if you can detach your lips from the breeders ASS and re-read my post it was an honest question. I did not imply anything or say it was fact or make charges against anyone. As a matter of fact if I were a breeder and this issue came up I would rather someone ask the question here than spread it. This way the breeder can comment on it as well as anyone with said offspring and clear the matter up very quickly.

Just re-read that post and I guess I should apologize to Dawgma for the lips comment. I guess people on here just feel the need to protect certain people even when it isn't needed.

Again I wanted the answers about what I heard not only from the breeder but also from others that have offspring. That way I am sure to get a true understanding of the progeny. Asking a question here should be the easiest way to do it and the best way for the breeder. If I had just asked around by word of mouth what would have happened? By the end the word would have grown too "every dog she has has Pannus" right? That's just the way it is. This way not only the breeder could respond but anyone with the progeny. So this way the question is being answered in a day or two with the least amount of RUMOR GROWTH. I'm sure that's the way Molly took it that's the reason she responded the way she did. She didn't see the attack you people always seem to see. Wether it's there or not.

Hi Molly -

Just wanted to add my name to the list of people that think Arrow is really beautiful.  Sounds as though she was one outstanding dog.

Judy

ram, it might help you better get along in life if you do a google search on the term "passive-aggressive behavior" and take it to heart.

PRESTON, Am I getting my own internet stalker??? I'm so lucky.

You know another funny things is I've run Hunting dogs for years. On any one of those boards if someone has heard of a possible problem witha specific line thay ask on the boards. People from all over the country respond who have the line and the truth is out there in short order. NO ONE takes offense and all are appreciative for the answer. perhaps it's because they are TRULY in it for the BETTERMENT OF THE BREED AND SPORT???

It's also funny how GSD owners all say that they want a good tough dog with good nerves but many of the owners on this boards seem to have the weak nerves. The hair goes up and the cur snapping starts at even the thought that someone might be questioning their beloved line or the the breeder that they just look up too with reverential AWE.

FOLKS SOME TIMES A QUESTION FOR CLARIFICATION IS JUST THAT. THIS BOARD IS THE CLOSEST THING TO McCARTHYISM SINCE THE LATE '60's.  THERE'S AN ENEMY IN EVERY THREAD, WATCH OUT.  If it wasn't so pathetic it would be comical.

Molly

There is nothing wrong  with 'Arrow' she is a right Cracker of a Dog and in beautiful Condition too at her age, you should really be proud of her, I would be a proud fellow if i owned her

Steve

Molly,

Arrow is a great looking dog. You must have been very proud.

Its a shame we get certain no hopers trying to cause conflict for others.

all the best.

Lewis

Ram - this is still best done in private.  Perhaps a post saying, 'Anyone with Eichenluft dogs please send me a PM' would have been more appropriate.  I dont know about the society in hunting dogs, but I will say that in my eyes this comes dangerously close to public slandering.

And to answer your question, I do not have one of Molly's dogs, but a friend that I show with does.  She's in great shape and her owner loves her...no health issue and I've never heard her say anything but good things about Molly.

~Cate

I read the eichenluft honor roll after reading the comments.  Gee - the last litter to get sch3 dogs is Kougars dogs.  I looked up the eicheluft dogs here.  Kougar is 7 years old.  Just like kougar the poster says.  And looking at the eichenluft dogs registered - eichenluft has at least 30 more litters after him. 

I can't see the blind hero worship of eichenluft.  I never see kougar posting to molly's many tirades at kougar.  When the IPs were shown  looked some of the IPs up - the so called IDs molly claims are kougar came out of Tenn, NC, IN and NJ - while frenzi and molly had the same IP in the same posting minute!  Come on  - who is the troll and who are the stupid people being led by their xxxxs here? 

eichenluft - maybe you should take kougars advice and find a shrink for your problem.  You aren't passive aggressive, but you sure show obessive aggression here - shame on you.  the lady TITLED one of your dogs - I sure would not buy one off of you after seeing what you do to her. 

And sable - aka molly/eichenluft LOL the only time you show up is to back up molly who has a tendency to talk to herself here ! - I bet any breeder here has bred a female, retired her and a few years later had a dog develop DM! come on - that  attempt at discrediting kouger just does not fly lady.  You bred a dog who developed pannus.  By that standard you are no better.  And you bred 2 daughters and sons and CONTINUE to breed them.  Any reasonable logical examination of this BS can see it.  What I don't understand is the stupidity of the peanut gallery in backing you up.  Blind stupidity.

Hi lee/drew

Is rick your new puppet this week?

Drew = Lee Hough.  You keep trying Lee, but it isn't working.  Give it up, go out and train your dogs.  Maybe someday you will actually title one from your own program instead of mine - that is, if you don't get kicked out of the last remaining club in your entire region who will have you on their property.

molly

I have to say that I get annoyed when people put something out there and ask for private e-mails behind the scene.  At least in this case, Molly was aware of the garbage floating around and could answer any wrong assumptions.  

Molly has no  problem answering questions and assumptions - you're right Don it's better to have it right out there in public eye.  I have nothing to hide, everything about me and my program, my dogs is public knowledge.  Nothing to hide.  I just wish people wouldn't listen to the trolls who do contact them privately, or post on this board, and assume that what they say is true without actually asking around and finding out if it is or not.  If anyone hears something negative about a breeder, ask the breeder or those who know the breeder first, do some research on your own if you are interested in finding what is true or not, don't just assume the rumors are truth just because someone says so.

molly

Molly - you just don't get it do you.  YOU ARE THE TROLL.  YOU DO EVERYTHING YOU ACCUSE KOUGAR OF DOING.  You need to get a life lady.  Like title another dog instead of washing what - a dozen out now? 

Keep on trying Lee, it is not working.  Your obsession with counting litters and dogs and visiting my website to look at the honor roll, is really interesting - if you want to spend time on my site being jealous of what I have accomplished, why don't you spend time reading the pages and pages of testimonials instead? - or better yet, why don't you focus on yourself and your own program?  Why so interested in mine?  I have nothing about my program I would change.  Wonderful dogs in great homes and everyone (except you of course) very happy.  That's my program - what's yours?

molly

Boy, am I tired of this constant crap. Lets top attacking other people and get out & train some dogs. I don't know about ya'll, but I have a lot of titles to get this year, both on dogs from my own breedings and others'.

SS

BTW Ram,

If the title of this thread wasn't meant to be an overt attack on Molly, fully intended to discredit her breeding program and get her dander up, I don't know what would be.

Shame on you for throwing "stool" into a fan.

SS

See I don't even know if I wanna get involved with all this drama at trials and clubs or even some people ... so much for my plan on a family membership with my son.  I personally think that's the hardest part to getting involved ... is it good for you, or not. I wish there was a club around minus all this drama for the kids sakes, because these two below are a mighty fine team.... Darn it. 

Our club welcomes juniors with open arms. We do NOT fight, squabble, or waste time with politics, cliques, bad-mouthing others, etc. We get together for one common cause: to train our dogs. Yeah, we like each other, get together outside training in two's and three's occasionally, maybe share some munchies and lift a glass, but everyone is welcome at Bosen Kinder.

Oh yeah: Cutsy-wutsy "My Dog" stories cost a buck apiece, donation to the club kitty. LOL

SS

CEPH, first off SLANDER is verbal,LIABLE is when it's in print. Then it would only had been LIABLE had i stated a falsehood. I did not. I asked a question. Secondly, why be secretive about it? So it could be kept quiet if it were true? I prefer things honest and above board. And for anyone claiming righteous indignation on this board is comical.

As Molly stated in the third person:                   

"Molly has no  problem answering questions and assumptions - you're right Don it's better to have it right out there in public eye.  I have nothing to hide, everything about me and my program, my dogs is public knowledge.  Nothing to hide.  I just wish people wouldn't listen to the trolls who do contact them privately, or post on this board, and assume that what they say is true without actually asking around and finding out if it is or not.  If anyone hears something negative about a breeder, ask the breeder or those who know the breeder first, do some research on your own if you are interested in finding what is true or not, don't just assume the rumors are truth just because someone says so."

I'll go through and respond line by line to what she has to say in her post. 1)She agrees not to do it in private. 2)I did not asusume anything was true that's why I looked for the info. on here and searches on other boards,ie. http://www.gsdworld.net/invboard/index.php?showtopic=5102&hl=pannus of which Molly is on this topic. I did talk to the only 2 people that I know, that know her. The first said yes that Kougar has it and that they heard the same about his mother. The second had done a breeding to Molly's stud. Other issues were mentioned but no Pannus.  Again as I have already stated and shown I did the reasearch. So after all that info. I had just apiece of the pie. So the next logical step would be to ask if their are others out there with progeny with this problem. I'd and it gave any the opportunity to respond including the breeder.

Molly stated: "If anyone hears something negative about a breeder, ask the breeder or those who know the breeder first." THAT'S WHERE THE U.S. BREEDERS OF THIS BREED DIFFER FROM THE GERMANS. YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT YOU. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. IT HAS TO DO WITH THE LINE. NO ONE SAID MOLLY HAS PANNUS. THE GERMANS I'VE TALKED WITH HAVE ALL BEEN FORTH COMMING ABOUT THEIR LINES AND ANY ISSUES WITH THEM BE IT HEALTH OR WHAT THEIR DOGS WEAK POINTS MAY BE. IT SEEMS HERE THAT THE BREEDERS WANT EVERYTHING HUSH, HUSH SO IT DOESN'T EFFECT THE DOLLARS COMMING IN. FOLKS THAT'S NOT DOING ANYTHING FOR "THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED"

Also I still have not gotten enough info. to come to a conclussion as to what is true. At the time I looked at the ped for Kougar it had 1 comment and his owner said he others in the line had Pannus. On this post his breeder siad he may have buty momma and grandma didn't. On the other board Molly talks about a couple of her females that had Pannus. Yet with the 30some posts on this topic here NOT ONE PERSON WITH A DOG DOWN FROM THIS LINE HAS COME FORWARD AND SAID "NO MY DOG DOESN'T HAVE PANNUS". Where are all the offspring from those 30 litters?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. IT HAS TO DO WITH THE LINE.

BS.

THAT'S WHERE THE U.S. BREEDERS OF THIS BREED DIFFER FROM THE GERMANS.   Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha    Surely you JEST!?

NOT ONE PERSON WITH A DOG DOWN FROM THIS LINE HAS COME FORWARD AND SAID "NO MY DOG DOESN'T HAVE PANNUS".   OK. I have, and have had quite a few dogs (say 25?) from the same foundation lines as many of Molly's dogs. (Fero, Harro, Lord, Xento...) So...  I'll be the FIRST to say it: "In 20+ years of importing, breeding and training dogs, I have never even seen a single case of pannus, in any of my dogs or any other dogs from "our" bloodlines. Do you think I would have bred me best producing female to Eagle if I hadn't done my homework?

Where are all the offspring from those 30 litters?  You're kidding, right? Anybody here wanna list the location and details of every puppy they ever produced here for some person who just wants to stir up trouble for a single individual they don't happen to care for? Be my guest! 

Let's see... 30 litters x say, an average of five pups per litter, = roughtly 150 pups.  1-2 unhappy owners = roughly 99% satisfied owners. I can live with that. 

SS

SS you state: "If the title of this thread wasn't meant to be an overt attack on Molly, fully intended to discredit her breeding program and get her dander up, I don't know what would be."

I have no ax to grind with Molly. She and I have never had words. As a matter of fact I, at this point don't have anything done from her lines. So it wasn't anything malicious. I had heard from a number of people cougar was a good hard dog. So I could get something off him if he was being bred or something that produce him or close to it in lines. Hence the interest.

 I've seen similar threads on this forum about faults and defects that people have heard run in certain lines from certain breeders. It just so happens that these were all lines from breeders in Germany. It's funny NO ONE had a problem with questioning those lines/breeders.... FOLKS THIS ISN'T A POPULARITY CONTEST IT'S ABOUT THE DOGS AND MAKING SURE YOU END UP WITH THE BEST POSSIBLE GSD.

When it comes right down to it if you don't like the way I went about getting the info. I was looking for DEAL WITH IT. You cry babies on the forum think that  ANY POST that asks a question about your friends has to be attacked. This sewing circle is a joke. You can tell by how the posts go. If theres a post about training,lines... it get's less than 100 views and 2 or 3 responses, but if it's a post like, "LOOK HOW PRETTY MY LONG COAT IS" or " FLUFFY'S POOH WAS LIME GREEN TODAY" you people can't stop posting on it.

When I was new to the dog world, the first serious advice I ever got was -  you will be everyone's buddy until you own your first really good dog. After that it all goes downhill.

When wanting to know about a line from a kennel it is always best to give the kennel/breeder the opportunity to answer any questions you have.  Pannus is not always genetic in nature. I sent a  trained dog to Saudi  and the sand and wind caused it to develop this condition.  

The general consesus is this post was wrong and I agree ,no purpose served but to start mess on someones breeding. What is sad is that the breeders pay the price defending rumors  not the poster who has nothing to lose. 

Marlene AlabamaK9

at this point don't have anything done from her lines.

So what, and WHOSE lines DO you have? I'm pretty knowledgeable about bloodlines. I'd be happy to assist you, just as I do anyone else who requests input.

SS

Ramgsd - first of all, you should ask more than two BIASED people about my lines before coming to any conclusions.  Ok?  Second, I said ONE female of mine (not "several") had Pannus, I also said she developed it at 11 years old and it was not "genetic" as she did not develop it as a young dog and never reproduced it.   Got it?  Don't skew the information given to you.

molly

My 12 year old female doesn't have pannus. She has cancer. We're not worried about genetic aspects. Point made.

It seems  some of you guys have no morals

If i am interested in finding out about any Dogs breeding or whatever, or in any other form of Live stock i do not post it on a Forum,

I Go to the person i am interested in finding out all the information i require and getting it first handI,

It is a personal matter for the one being asked, not for it to be bartered around on a website

It is not for anyone with  any ethices, to post on a forum the way this has been done, its not good manners or is it right

Its now becoming another one of those threads, i sure do wonder where some of you are coming from, each thread that goes on here winds up with some one being put down

I thank my lucky stars i do not live over in the USA if  life over there is all this way

Steve

ramgsd writes: "Yet with the 30some posts on this topic here NOT ONE PERSON WITH A DOG DOWN FROM THIS LINE HAS COME FORWARD AND SAID "NO MY DOG DOESN'T HAVE PANNUS". Where are all the offspring from those 30 litters?"

here ya go ram - I keep in touch with all of my puppies and puppy buyers.  ONE of my females had Pannus developed as an elderly dog - this problem is prevalent in the BREED and not unexpected in the older dogs.  Of all offspring in the other "30 litters", there is no "young dog" or genetic Pannus in my lines.  Is that good enough for you?  If not, keep on with your research.

molly

Shelly LET'S GET REAL. You know when I stated LINES I wasn't talking all the way back to Fero... I was talking full of half bro. sis. to the dogs in question. The dogs up close and to see if it's true perhaps it's just a combination thing with certain breedings.... Nearly everyones dogs go back to thoughs lines. SO THANK YOU FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS AND TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND INSITEFUL.

As for "Let's see... 30 litters x say, an average of five pups per litter, = roughtly 150 pups.  1-2 unhappy owners = roughly 99% satisfied owners. I can live with that. "   Thanks for the remedial math lesson., but that is EXACTLY what I'm asking for. Those are the ones I want to hear from. Not you folks on here kissing ASS. The ones that actually own these dogs and see if their is a pattern I wish to stay away from or is it isolated cases and I can be realitively confident that I won't be likely to acquire a pup with issues.

As for "Do you think I would have bred me best producing female to Eagle if I hadn't done my homework?"  

I could care less what you breed your dogs too. You could breed it to the neighbors pug for all I care. You did your research on possible studs, great. Now I'm doing mine on the possible acquisition of a pup/young dog.

You're kidding, right? Anybody here wanna list the location and details of every puppy they ever produced here for some person who just wants to stir up trouble for a single individual they don't happen to care for? Be my guest! 

YOU IDIOT, DO YOU NEED LESSONS ON COMPREHENSION? I stated I wanted to here from the actual OWNERS of these dogs. Not have someone list anything.

Ram

What's the problem?  You have questions about Molly's lines and breedings, so stay away from them.  There are millions of other breeders out there. Move on. 

Sorry. My 160 IQ came with ADHD. My apologies if it annoys you.

Add a spelling lesson to the remedial math: INSITEFUL  Insightful.

I wasn't talking all the way back to Fero... I was talking full of half bro. sis. to the dogs in question. Again, my apologies. I am one of those annoying breeders who looks at 5+ generations of a pedigree, especially concerned about potential negative issues  amplified by  linebreeding. Its a very popular subject in some circles... Silly me.

I could care less what you breed your dogs too. You could breed it to the neighbors pug for all I care Lucky for me, a lot of people on this and other boards DO care, and are paying close attention in hopes of aquiring their next competition dog from my breeding program.  I'll bet you will too, but only if I produce any faults or health issues. You'd beat me to death I'm wagering, right here on this board!

I stated I wanted to here from the actual OWNERS of these dogs.  As van Hayden intelligently suggested, better (and classier) to do a search on  "Eichenluft... "

BTW: I don't kiss anyone's ass.  I don't have to at this stage of the game.  My credibility is EARNED, HARD-earned, NOT BORROWED...

SS

Molly you stated I should have asked thoughs that knew you. Now that I state that I did ask the ONLY 2 PEOPLE I KNOW THAT KNOW YOU AND HAVE HAD DOGS FROM YOU, you state I should have asked more than 2 BIASED people. I would have had I known any others. LET'S BE REAL HERE, anyone who has dogs from you are BIASED one way or they other.  It just so happens that of the people I contacted 1 had an issue the other that did the breeding mentioned a few things but stated that it could have just been the combo of the 2 dogs when bred. So nothing truely negative there.

Again sorry you took offense at what I view as a legit question. Since Kougar isn't being bred, what's the next best thing? Going to his breeder. So even after all this "PROTECT MOLLY AT ALL COSTS" tirade and I compile all the info and there seems to be no genetic issue who do you think I'd be coming to to obtain a dog from the lines the Kougar dog was from????

I never viewed this post as negative. to me it could only have a POSSITIVE OUTCOME. If what I had heard was ture, finding out what combos produce it and staying away from that combo with a breeding from Molly= POSSITIVE OUTCOME. (doesn't mean all her breedings are going to produce it) If it wasn't true and was an issolated case I wouldn't have to worry that it would likely happen to the pup I wanted, again= POSSITIVE OUTCOME.

To Von HAYDEN SHEPS as for jealousy I understand where you are comming from. Although it doesn't apply in this case. I am not jealous of Molly. to the contrary. I have never bred Shepherds and don't intend to start anytime soon. So there is no need for jealousy there. Secondly as I have stated many times I'm new to the sport and hope to one day have the success that Molly and many others have achieved. Since I am still acquiring new stock and getting the existing dogs to be trial ready, again there is no jealousy.

So WHO ARE YOU anyway? ...and who are YOUR friends and affiliates? I hate it when people hide behind screen names.

SS

Ram - I am sorry you took offense...I was just stating my opinion.  And I also mentioned that a friend has a dog from Eichenluft who does not have pannus (or at least that I heard...I talked to her last month at a show).  Are you looking at Molly's pups or lines to get a dog from?  If not, or if you are that worried about the lines, I agree with what Don had to say.

~Cate

ramgsd - "Now I'm doing mine on the possible acquisition of a pup/young dog."

here's my recommendation.  Don't get a puppy from Kougar because he apparently has Pannus, which could be a genetic problem in the BREED.  I am breeding his full littermate (who doesn't have Pannus, neither did his mother, grandmother, 1/2 siblings, full siblings or any other relatives) but I recommend that if you're worried about Pannus, that you don't get a pup from Kaos since his brother has Pannus.   My lines are well-known for excellent health, temperament, drives and have many many happy people to back that up (reading my testimonial page may be worth the time if you are interested in having lots of puppy owners all on one - or 10 - pages).  But maybe if you are worried about Pannus you should look into another breed, as Pannus is a problem in this breed.

Also, don't bother contacting me about a pup, even if you were interested in my lines - because I am certainly not interested in dealing with people like you.

molly

Eichenluft Working German Shepherds

http://workinggermanshepherd.com

I'm thinking she might be better off focusing more on problems with higher probability than pannus. She needn't worry about getting a pup from me either. God forbid it should develop pannosteitis, have a tiny umbilical hernia at 8 weeks, puke up its breakfast one morning for no apparent reason, have to have a baby canine pulled to "insure" perfect dentition, ears not up at 3 months... We'd both be flamed for decades...

Of course, ya'll know I am smiling

OH NO i made a type-o because it was going to fast. Hitting the bottle already this morning? Heck I've even spelled THAT, TAHT because i was typing too fast. Big deal. As for:Again, my apologies. I am one of those annoying breeders who looks at 5+ generations of a pedigree, especially concerned about potential negative issues  amplified by  linebreeding. Its a very popular subject in some circles... Silly me.

No kidding. So how would you go about finding out that info??? Wouldn't you look to see if there was a pattern?????Possibly a specific breeding?????? Then find out which lines thoughs dogs go back too???? You have to start at square one. Without knowing which dogs were bred I can't possibly know which lines the come from.

DON that's the entire thing. I don't have a issue with Molly nor her dogs. Quite the contrary I liked the one from her kennel. Yes there are many breeders out there but since she was supposed to be the breeder of the dog I liked. Hence my interest.

So how would you go about finding out that info???  Spend a lot of time in Germany... visiting and learning from breed wardens, successful breeders and competitors... people exposed to a LOT of dogs, have studied bloodlines for 40-50 years, which is what I did, and still do. THAT'S HOW.  One thing for sure, I didn't learn it posting overtly insinuating threads on this messageboard.  LOL

Wouldn't you look to see if there was a pattern? One or two dogs  from any bloodline does not a pattern make. Then find out which lines thoughs dogs go back too???? My point exactly...  Too bad you missed it the first time.

Hitting the bottle already this morning?  Nice...   WHO ARE YOU AGAIN??? I like to know the names of people who insult me, and also the names of thoe who inspired them to do so whenever possible.  It helps in avoiding meeting them in person in future, just in case I run into them at an event someday.  Call it a short "punch list," only without the punch. 

Yes Pannus is a problem in the breed. Hence the reason trying to avoid it.

SHELLY YOU TUELY ARE AN IDIOT:

Wouldn't you look to see if there was a pattern? One or two dogs  from any bloodline does not a pattern make. Then find out which lines thoughs dogs go back too???? My point exactly...  Too bad you missed it the first time.

No it doesn't make a pattern but those could be the only 2 I've heard of. Maybe there are more maybe not. A pattern always starts with the first one doesn't it????????? That's the reason I wanted to find out.  No I didn't miss it the first time. I didn't NEED it the first time. Again I'll inform the 160 IQ of yours that since I just heard the info, I needed to know which breedings may be involved so I can continue on with the research and see if there is even an issue here.

Molly obviously I won't be getting a pup from Kougar as when I inquired about him amd found out the Pannus issue I was told "obviously he wouldn't be being bred." Sorry that you feel that way about getting a pup. That's OK as there others out there with the the Alk blood that are winning.

Sorry you took this the wrong way. Best of wishes to you Molly.

Actually my IQ is higher than that, (depending on which test you hold stock in, Mensa, Stanford Bonet, whatever...) which is why its hard to focus sometimes.

I now promounce this thread: DEAD.

Oh, oh, let me in before we hoist the gravestone...

To ram,

I would be careful about calling anyone an idiot.

The term you were looking for earlier is "LIBEL", not "LIABLE".  Thought you should be held liable for your libel.

It is spelt "those", not "thoughs".

"Truly" and not "truely".

"Positive" and not "Possitive".

"Coming" not "comming". (All of these are not typos, unless you have accidental, spontaneous typos every time you write certain words)

Shelley has already pointed out the delicious little "insiteful" blip.

You seem to have some anger management issues.  You say you are new to the sport, yet you seem to be awfully quick burning bridges.  Perhaps a bit of maturity and diplomacy will get you farther in your search.  Though now you are sending best wishes out...how confusing!

I hold no loyalties in this fight, but I think you're being a bit unreasonable.

Just in case this thread should be deleted, here is a quote from the comments section

kougar "Stories change. I was told - and it was posted on anohter board that Arrow v Zuckerburg had Pannus, as did Xinerobello Tiekerhook. Now Kougar has it. And his sister and brother - as well as other xinerobella dogs have been and are currently BEING BRED - and linebred on Xinerobella."
 

Just so folks understand where this filth spews from.................   I assume that kougar also known under a number of other aliases can prove her claims, and her latest friend ramgsd checked his facts also?????

LOL, I had Libel spelled correctly the first time and it just didn't look right. Didn't really care enough to use spell check.

Yes the others are type-o's. I just don't feel the need to always go back and proof read. I don't feel that posts on message boards are all that important to waste time on making sure every I is dotted and every T crossed, so to speak. Here's a quote from me from above:

To Von HAYDEN SHEPS as for jealousy I understand where you are comming from. Although it doesn't apply in this case. I am not jealous of Molly. to the contrary. I have never bred Shepherds and don't intend to start anytime soon. So there is no need for jealousy there. Secondly as I have stated many times I'm new to the sport and hope to one day have the success that Molly and many others have achieved. Since I am still acquiring new stock and getting the existing dogs to be trial ready, again there is no jealousy...

You will notice COMMING is spelled correctly. So your inference that these aren't type-0's is incorrect. I many times don't feel the need to use the ' for the plural forms sometimes. Sorry but it isn't a life or death matter to me. I have even started a post where I accidently Spelled BREEDER, breAder. I have a tendency to drop my left pinkie in the cap lock, A area and this keyboard in sensitive. Didn't catch it till it was too late. Since it was the title, I did hurry and post "sorry for the mistake". LOL.

You should not be confused: I never any bad wishes for Molly. I was just looking for info. to make an infromed decision. I still don't have a problem with her. It's just all the trolls who want to jump on me for an innocent question. Perhaps next time it would be handled differently. For that matter perhaps pointing out that it could have been handled differently could also have been handled better? No everyone on here would much rather jump on every last little thing. It does seem to rub off.
 

Just as I have no issue with you, even though your post was nothing but a jab and had nothing constructive to do with the topic at hand.

Funny thing is, from the email Molly sent to me it seem she understands that I have nothing personal against her. So why should anyone else care?

But in any even it truly is not a big deal to me. As in every thread I've read there are misspelled words, words used incorrectly. As long as the general thought is conveyed big deal.

So ramgsd, have you learned anything yet?

Bluto "was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

I'm sorry, but, WHAT??? I don't follow. When did the GERMAN's bomb Pearl Harbor?

Bluto "was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

ROTFLMAO! I spit my coffee into the keyboard with that one! Funny end to a not-so-funny thread. Thanks!

RamGsd

The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor around the 5th-6th December 1941. next  Day Germany declared War on the USA, Britain had been fighting a year before or there abouts, But its best not to go down that road again

Steve

Yes Steve you are correct It was the Japanese actually on the 7th of Dec. 1941. I just thought I was missing some inside joke there.

I guess you guys have never seen the movie

" Bluto: Christ. Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the fucking Peace Corps. "

Tis sad to see the "f" word in the same sentence with Jesus.  I'm just saying.

Not that I feel the need to correct, but sentences are ended with a puncuation mark.   I don't believe Christ and the F-word are in the same sentence, but they are in the same quote.  Haven't you guys seen Animal House? 

Don, You have the best sense of humor and can turn a bad post to a smile.  When they bash me please inject some of your humor it will lower my blood pressure.  Marlene AlabamaK9

Marlene

I can't help it, I'm a Libra.  I have to have everything balanced or my OCD will drive me nuts!

This thread is discusting to say the least, now some 81 posts on this which has a good chance of ruining a persons reputation,

People coming on these forums looking to by a Pup will read this thread and give this kennel a No,

When you get on a thread 81 posts its not possible to sort out how it started and what the real reason was for doing it in the first place, because every thing gets twisted in the maze of words

As i said  before if you wish to know the Facts go straight to the Fountain Head not splash it about on a Forum

Its not ethical to do this, not in my book anyway but some people  have no scuples or morals

If i were Molly i would ask the poster of this thread to prove what he has put into print

and the heading he or she has put on this thread tells it all

And this is why i do not like people not putting there real names to a forum or where they come from

To me if you have to hide behind a Non de Plume, then you are not one to be taken seriously and have something to hide

Steve

I have asked "them" to prove what they say, of course they cannot - and I have put the facts out there.  HOpefully if people read this thread they will read through and get the facts instead of listening to the rumors.   Or better yet, ask the people themselves instead of posting on a chat list.

molly

I have to throw my 2 cents in here.  I've known of Molly and had business dealings with her for close to 10 years now.  I really can't understand where all of these crazy accusations and degrading comments about her breeding program come from.  She is one of damn few people in this country that breed, raise and title her own dogs and have taken them to high level competition.  Whether every dog she has competed with is your cup of tea or not, what have you crap talkers got to compare with?  Molly has had in her possession, dogs from some pretty heavy hitters including Tiekerhook, Schwedenbrunnen and several more that I can't recall.  If these kennels trust her enough to let her take their dogs, that says something about her character and breeding practice.  Do you have any idea what it takes to breed and raise good working litters and then attempt to get them into the hands of people that will work and title them?  How about raising a puppy from a litter and then taking it through the program and making it to a national event?  Maybe all of you gripers are really top level competitors from Europe and are coming on here incognito because it's your idea of fun?  If not, I really doubt that any of you have anything up on Molly. 

Mike Williams                                                                                                                                                                

Alte Baum Kennel

This is the only time I will post a response to this thread, as I loath posting anything on this message board, and frankly, just rarely have the time. I purposely do not get involved in the "Lee vs. Molly Saga", as IMO, they are BOTH wrong for participating in such BS...but whatever.

I own Hawk V Eichenluft, 12 X SchH3 and IPO3, out of Orkan V Werraland and Arrow v Zuckerberg aka " Adra". On my property, belonging to my son, I also have Miko V Eichenluft CGC out of Bodo V Tiekerhook SchH3 and Glarbo's Gina...I forget her title. I also have on my property two young dogs with Eichenluft bloodline. Hawk has also sired for me 4 litters, and also had numerous outside breedings. Pannus is no where to be found in any dog, period. I also have met many many many Eichenluft "Pups" as we call them, as every year Molly has a reunion were countless Eichenluft owners converge from all over for a 3 days picnic where almost every dog gets to work with the sheep, do agility, try some bitework or show what they already know, swim in the pool,  hang out in the shade, and/or show off any other special talents. You don't get that kind of hands on experience as to what a kennel produces any where else that I know of. On top of THAT, she also has an email list where every puppy owner is invited to join, I believe the membership is well over 100 people at this point...all sharing trials, tribulations, fun stuff, problems, ideas, advice...hard to hide "secrets" with everyone communicating together in that way...it is a VERY active list!!

Yes, Molly has been a very close friend of mine for about 10 years now. I also knew her foundation breeding stock first hand. Zeke aka  Cynnor v Eichenluft was the only dog I ever knew or saw with pannus out of all her dogs. She stayed at my home for a short time once, and simple eye medication kept it in check....she had NO trouble chasing a ball...EVER.

If ANYONE would like to contact me privately with any questions, I will try to respond in a timely fashion....but training, caring for and enjoying my dogs; trialing; raising a family;  preparing for puppies; and keeping up with my home are and will remain a higher priority.

Kandi Jacopino

http://www.rokanhaus.com

Canaan CT USA

860-824-5008

" I also have met many many many Eichenluft "Pups" as we call them, as every year Molly has a reunion were countless Eichenluft owners converge from all over for a 3 days picnic where almost every dog gets to work with the sheep, do agility, try some bitework or show what they already know, swim in the pool,  hang out in the shade, and/or show off any other special talents. " (Kandi)

AWWWWW, that sounds like a lot of fun and is  a really great idea.   Kudos to Molly, I bet everyone has a ball, 2 and 4 legged!

A realy stupid Post in my opinion.  God help us!  If Pannus were the only problem in the breed.  Molly, I can't read the whole damn thread because i ain't got all the time in the world.  Thank you for doing all the good things you do for the breed.  You will never have the whole answer.  But at least you breed to the standard.  And for this you deserve respect.

There we are, the truth will out,

Kandi. has said it all, Full marks to Molly and her Kennels sounds like a nice caring lady to me who is rightfully proud of her Dogs and what happens atter to her Pups she passes on to others, a rare quality

Those you started this thread need to be thrown off the site for good, and  crawl back into the holes they came out of, Call yourself Dog lovers, you make me laugh, over here we have other apt names for you people without morals of any kind

The sooner you are off the site the better for everyone and i will be writing to the site owner myself

Steve