German Shepherd dog

are you for or against?

I have never used one

dose it hurt/damage them?

any collar used improperly can hurt your dog.   a properly fitted pinch collar allows you to give a correction with a minimum pull of the leash.   

so yes i am for.

john

A lot less damage, in my opinion, from those than a choke in the wrong hands.  Please be aware that a cheap one will fall apart when you need it most and is not as safe for your dogs neck as, say, a Sprenger.  If you purchase one I would also suggest you don't buy one with the biggest links. The medium size links are easier to find a correct adjusment because you can add and remove in smaller increments.

Also you don't necessarily have to use one forever. One of my dogs needed one for a time and now has gotten the pulling out of her system.

I use the medium sized links for my GSD's as well. 

they aren't nails. Nails are sharp projections that are used to impale an object. These are rounded end links designed to disseminate force around the entire circumference of the neck with a pinching effect. It is a pinch collar not a spike collar.

Properly fit properly used on a gsd that is in need of any extra bit of encouragement to pay attention , will never harm the dog .

If used properly it is a very useful training tool.  I do not think that it is cruel in any way if used correctly.  My dogs for one, love their pinch collars!  They know that they are going to get to train or go for a hike. 

I love my dogs and they love me.  We both love the 'pinch' collar, though I would prefer to call it a prong, since it doesn't pinch.  If you are unsure, put it on yourself and see how it feels.  I did.

Tried one on my little Nicole; it did not work...she still pulled my left shoulder half out of socket when a squirrel shot past us, and did not back off any more than she would have on a nylon collar.

Our little girl has a VERY strong prey and ball drive!

>>>let me think would i like to walk around with nails in mi neck?........erm.........me thinks not. if you cant train your dog without one of these.....why bother<<<

Maybe because it's one hellova good dog: powerful and hard.  That's why one would bother.  What's the point of training a soft whimpy dog that DOESN'T need one?  (that is an exaggeration, but rather true to a lot of Schutzhund people's feeling about their appreciation of hard dogs)   I've put a pinch collar on my own arm and yanked hard to see what it feels like to my dog...most people who train have probably done something like that...it's not like nails at all.  Unless you sharpen the prongs, I guess.  I've heard of people doing that, but haven't ever seen anyone actually do it. 

Veronica

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:

    * 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
    * The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
    * Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
    * Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

The numbers seem to speak for themselves.

www.protectiondogforums.com

I have not needed to make a "correction" per se. I keep my hand in one place and if the dog lunges against it, it is a self correction. But then my dogs don't happen to be particularly hard, more impulsive or laying into the collar than anything. I do know that correctionsif made at all, should be made to the side not up or toward the back.

Hope this thread has helped. I know Leerburgs website has a whole section dedicated to using one but I don't know if the information on the posts are good as I've never read those ones.

I use them every day, on every breed, size, and personality. The collar itself must be of good quality, rounded ends and properly angled links.

I explain it to my clients like this: If you dogs mother saw him acting out with a littermate, would she run for a cookie and politely ask him to stop? If one dog steals another dogs' bone/bed/toy, do they bribe him or drag him by the collar to a crate?

Physical correction is the most natural form of discipline for dogs, when used fairly and consistently.

thanks guys

this is helpful im not silly about my dogs but i would never want to inflict pain on them ,i think what i have seen was a prong/spike colar it was v. sharp and drew blood the man who was using it was lifting him off the ground with it and this really upset me.

i live in the uk where can i get a good one from ? and is there a site that can help me learn to use it? i am 5''2 and a woman

with my 45kg malamute x shepherd i ski..lol

steve1.... i was begining to think i was one of the minority. 

I am for, if a person decides that they need one.

I am also for everyone else minding their own business and keeping their noses out of mine. If you happen to see a dog with a bloody neck from prong, yeah, speak up, but if you see a happy well adjusted dog and handler and the dog is wearing a prong, keep your mouth shut and move on.

Hi Tigermouse,

I get mine and other training equipment from J Humphries (not sure that is correct spelling) but can't at the moment find his details.  He is very prompt at posting things out.

If you want his details respond and I will look them out for you, he has a very comprehensive catolouge.

Jes

For. IMHO people who are against are misinformed. Used properly a pinch collar minimizes compulsion. I have put one around my neck, as tightly as I would the dog. It feels funny but not even close to uncomfortable as getting choked by a piece of nylon, leather, or chain. You become very sensitive to the leash and hence (if you were a dog) the handler. The pinch collar does not 'pierce' holes into the dog...it pinches skin (if you take a look at how it works, the prongs eventually lay flat if you pull tight enough) *only* during the appropriate times (for example, when the dog pulls), and then just floats over the neck when the dog is being 'good'. Unless you have a really, really low energy dog that could care less most dogs will pull at some point, whether it's on a regular walk or if they see a squirrel or something. A pinch will minimize injury to both dog and handler.

Ironically it is one of the best tools I have used for 'positive' training.

yes, sometimes you might hear a "yipe" on a particularly vocal dog at times.  But, I like to say, that's only because they can.  Far less damaging that a choker collar. 

Tigermouse

The Humphies  Guy would be better for you, than sending over to here,

Steve

You hear a yelp because you get the dog's attention. Obviously it's good to know beforehand how to actually use it (one quick jerk for correction, leash slack otherwise for example).

It's good for positive training because the dog, corrected once, will make the conscious decision to obey rather than constantly being nagged into obeying without even understanding the exercise. Contrast to something like a halti which I see people comparing to all the time, the halti I feel is more restrictive and actually relies more on compulsion as you are forcing the dog to do something versus giving him the freedom to 'decide' for himself, which is what I view positive training is all about.

The first time I took my dog to a Schutzhund club, the TD asked me to stay after so he could show me about prong collars. He fitted one on Quest for me. All I kept thinking about was how terrible this device was and how cruel I was being to allow someone to put one on my dog. After it was fitted, the TD told me to hold the end of my 6' lead, hook my thumbs to my belt loops and walk with the dog. When the dog pulled, I stopped walking. Amazingly, my dog just turned back and created slack in the lead. It was beautiful!

I use a medium prong for training, but find that a smaller one works best for walks with my adult.

Jackie

Hopefully people who have stumbled on this thread will learn to understand a tool/sport/anything they don't have first hand knowledge of  before passing  judging it in the future.

olskool, you are back from the dead! Glad to hear from you, even if on such a crappy topic as AKC.