I guess I just need to vent. I showed my 20 month old black and red Ghandi granddaughter in the American ring on Sat. She looked great and people would stop to touch her and ask where I got her. I put her in the bred by class as I bred her and own her. The judge couldn't make up her mind. She spent a long time time touching, looking and came over to me and said: "you have a very beautiful bitch" and handed me a 2nd place ribbon! She said nothing to the first place owner who had a female that was a washed out sable that was quite far down on her hocks. I guess the judge didn't have the ba--s to put a German line bitch in lst place in an AKC show.
Several of us took our German dogs to the show. One to support the club, two to get better number entries and three to have fun. I think we accomplished all three, but it would be nice if the judge would judge to the standard and not what they feel they have to put up. Of course Jimmy Moses was there and he took Breed and got a Group Placing......what a surprise.
I think the biggest problem you are going to face in the American Show ring is the interpretation of the standard. You'll find many that feel that the highlines have a roach, and the AKC standard states that the withers are higher than and sloping into a level back. The back is straight, strongly developed, without sag or roach, and relativley short.
While many may not follow the standard by following one extreme...you will see many that are highly against the showline topline.
You'll find some that feel highlines are to standard, such as yourself...some who feel american lines are closer to standard...such as many showing....and then others who feel neither showlines is a good representative of the breed.
As far as the judge - for one you cant second guess what they are thinking - I had one judge spend a couple of minutes after breed praising my dog only to pick a dog for group that he said nothing to...I didnt know the standard of that breed of dog, but that dog was more mature than my own....saying something doesnt automatically mean she thought your dog was any better or worse...it may have just meant that she liked your dog and was encvouraging you to show your type.
It's ok, Pat. People like you will continue to educate not only the general public but judges as well on what a healthy dog looks like. That's why I will continue to bring my dogs to AKC events, especially that one. I was there too, must've missed you, but we were over by obedience. 3 people asked me and 1 person asked Lydia if our dogs were belgian shepherds and I lost track of how many times I was asked why my dogs walked differently than the conformation shepherds. Go figure.
Don't forget if you're Jimmy Moses your dog can slink around the ring, snap at the judge and still win.
Will we see you in May? I finally have a homebred girl to show. Sorry we didn't see you to say hello.
Thanks for the input. I have been around for a long time and have shown in AKC shows before. Finished a 1/2 Am 1/2 German bitch I bred years ago. My young female has no roach and wonderful pigment and is clean coming and going. I know the judge liked her....but..... I hold no grudges. I sure would like to see more proportionally correct dogs being shown in the AKC ring. In the 80's the angulation was awful. It truly has gotten a bit better, but these dogs could never herd sheep all day. I would like to see more German dogs in the AKC ring maybe just maybe some of the judges would look at them and say " now that dog is closer to the standard". As in Germany too many times it is the handler being judged and not the dog. And you are correct, if Mr. Moses had my female she would have won.
Politics as usual!! The AKC Judges would NOT KNOW a good dog when it is right in front of them. Are you really that surprised being in the world of German Shepherds for how many years? I think that people who own the Geman bred dogs will not put their German Shepherds any of the AKC Shows because of this reason. Why should they waste their money and time?
I have decided to let a young girl that wants to be a professional dog handler, handle
my dog Theo, he is east German bloodlines, she has handled sporting dogs and got
CH. on them, and she wants to get used to handling all the breeds, the judges are
used to seeing her, she goes to many shows, I'm curious to see what will happen,
with her & Theo, he's her at a show in CT with Theo, of course we got a blue ribbon
in open, the other dog was absent, anyway, another nice photo of Theo the wonderdog!!!
My curiosity will get the better of me............
Pat, I feel your pain. Be there done that, too many times.
I regularly show my German Show line girl at AKC shows. She, always, gets compliments on size, structure and movement but we generally get reserve. My main reason for showing is the experience. I serve as President of my local all-breed akc dog club and most of the folks are conformation people. I had no experience with conformation and wanted to learn. My girl is nice and doesn't have any of the extremes of most of the GSD's we see in my area.
With the exception of one show, I've been the only owner handler in the ring.. That one exception was a guy that I knew and his dog was excellent - went BOB and deserved it. On the next day, Jimmy Moses decided to handle the male that lost to my friend's dog personally and the new judge didn't even look twice at my friend's dog :(
Don't stop showing your girl. It's important. If the judges aren't given reasonable choices they'll never learn to make good decisions. BTW I've been told repeatedly to not every waste my money on a GSD speciality show since they are looking for a very specific appearence in the dog - extreme angulation is expected and needed to win.
Also, one of the toughest things about showing our German Show line dogs in AKC is the size of the ring. It's usually too small for our dogs to get enough speed to gait properly. As for Dan Smith don't know. Does anyone know how Dr. Morton Goldfarb is? I've wondered since he does have German Showline dogs.
I've got go thru my folder at home but I showed under on guy a couple of years ago that was great. He really was about putting up the best dog overall (to heck with what anyone else thougtht). I had a chance to talk with him for a while after judging ended and before group. He gave me an excellent critque on my girl and some really good tips for handling her better in the future. He, also, thanked me for showing a German Showline dog at an AKC event. Said it was really nice to see the types side by side (my girl took reserve even though she wasn't showing worth a dang that day - sick tummy - she barfed all over her carrier when we got back to the van). I'll find his name when I get home tonight and I'll post it. He did not seem to be playing the politics game either. I really do think he picked the best dog there that day (then picked the same dog in group over the #1 sheltie & 1# corgi in the country). I've never seen him in my area again though.
I've thought about entering the AKC breed ring just for shits and giggles! But, that would be in my spare time, which I don't exactly have a lot of right now.
Smith awarded a major win to Goldfarb's import and Goldfarb did the same for Smith's import, Jim. Both are pretty nice dogs IMO. Either might put up an import depending on the competition. Karin Wagner would be another judge I'd think about showing under with an import. She likes them and bred at least one litter out of Smith's Jim.
Some AKC judges will never put up an import, Helen Miller Fisher for example, she thinks they are ugly and lacking in good breed type. Interestingly, Fisher was one of he first AKC GSD breeders to import dogs from Germany. Another good judge for an import would be Helen Gleason I think. Louise might be able to add to this, she knows most of the judges and if they would consider an import. If she doesn't see this, you might want to PM her and ask. Preston too.
bsceltic, you ask how Dr. Morton Goldfarb is. Do you mean as a judge or do you mean his health? If you mean as a judge he is very good. He knows the dog. If you mean his health, has something happened to him? ecs
How good is Mort Goldfarb as a judge? Yes, he has to be very old . I think he is probably more like Lanting in that he may not always have the courage of his convictions. However, he is not blind to dogs or to politics. I believe that he imported Atrice vom Klämmle (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1596.html) --sister to Argus and Aßlan--(possibly the dam Zilly--I can't remember). I've heard that Atrice lacked sound temperament--which many believe is why she was sold.
I attended a seminar where Goldfarb was the speaker. He showed some slides (or videos?) of Atrice's pups. Goodness, but they were some butt-high, long-bodied, unangulated suckers--JMHO. However, in those days when AKC folks laughed at Goldfarb's dogs, folks knew little of German bloodlines or their developmental stages.
Then there are the two Helen's. I had a sable bitch who won AKC points under Helen M-F (sometimes referred to as "The Madame"). I do commend Gleason for schutzhund titling her dogs. Again, IMO, her recent attempts to cross German and American lines are not the exact breedings that I would have done. Different strokes for different folks??
Dan Smith? Well, who knows? Bill Leonard? Ditto...I guess.
Most AKC judges will judge far differently--depending if they are judging at all-breed or specialty shows.
However, under any of these AKC judges, you may fare better if you have Moses as a handler. Heaven knows that he has often handled their imports.
My 13 yr old daughter handled our Male High-line in a Specialty Show the only dog that walked on his rear feet.
The Judge was not very nice to her, made a comment about he must be a German Dog,
and made her stay back for the last pass around the ring.
That comment from the judge makes you really think about the name of the dog, should the American-bred
lines of German Shepherd start being renamed American (show) Shepherd?
As it seems they have a very different standard for the German Shepherd Dog entered in AKC shows.
Your dog is very handsome, I have never attended a specialty GSD show, for fear of becoming
sick to my stomach watching the crippled dogs trip over their back legs, (Not a pretty sight!)
Wow, there is just no excuse for a judge to be rude to a 13 yr old, no matter what his personal feelings are about different types. That sucks. Everyone's got a right to put thier dog out there and let the placing speak for itself, no need to be nasty. I took my dark sable east german line pup to a show, just for exposure to the environment, and very few people recognized her breed. I got asked several times if she was a collie mix (and not she's not coated!). A few even asked me "if I was sure" when I told them she was a german shepherd.
I know what you mean about your GSD not looking like the ones that people are seeing in shows,
I went to obedience school with my girl GSD Dana Von Ryans, and the lady there had a black & tan
GSD female that was about 5 months old, it had thin bones & a washed out color, it also was barking
at the other dogs, and shy of people, it's gotten alot better now since it first came to ob school.
At least she was training the little bugger!
Anyway, the little GSD's owner came over to Dana, and asked if she could pet him, and I told her it was a girl,
then she asked what kind of dog Dana was, it surprised me cause she owns a GSD herself, I am proud to
have such a beautiful girl like Dana, she has such a big head and thick bones, but very friendly, I couldn't
ask for more (Love those eastes!)
I'm going to continue showing Theo, now that I have a youngster that can run him around the ring,
Theo is just about 2 1/2 yrs. old now, and I've seen worse looking GSD's that have CH in front of
their name, and you do get to have a different judge each time, so who knows.............
Trust me, you'll definately see a gynormus brag if Theo gets noticed
Dan and Marilyn Smith found this thread particularly interesting. They have asked that I post on their behalf:
"It is accurate that Dr. Goldfarb put up Jim and that Dan put up Dr. Goldfarb's dog. However, these two events were five years apart. Please note that Sel CH Darby-Dan's Just Jack and Sel Exc CH Darby-Dan's Miranda were both also shown under Dr. Goldfarb - and both went second.
"As to the comments on Helen Fisher: It isn't that she doesn't like German dogs, but rather than she does not care for roached backs or bad fronts. Early on, Helen gave Jim a point, and later a Group 1.
"Remember that these judges must judge what is brought into their rings. You cannot bring dogs that have no front or are high in the rear and expect to win. If you do so and do not win, it is not because the dog is German. BY ALL MEANS, show German dogs, just make sure they are good.
"Some discussion here also centered on Jim. We feel it is important to note that he is the only import ROM sire in this country in the last 30 years or more. He has also produced ROM progeny.
"Lastly, we find it really, realy odd that people who haven't accomplished much would come onto this message board and critique other people and their dogs."
When I belonged to the GSDCA Helen Miller Fisher was interviewed in "The Review" and asked about her thoughts on imported dogs. She said, and I quote - ".......I think they are ugly". Sorry I didn't keep that magazine since I can't tell you which issue it was. If you see her, why don't you ask her if she said that? Glad to hear that she changed her mind and gave Jim a point and a gp 1. He's a very nice dog. It sounds like she would be a good judge to show an import under if it doesn't have a roachy topline.
Not sure what is meant by - people who have never accomplished much - few here show at AKC shows. However, they do title their dogs and Koer most of them prior to breeding them. That is a big accomplishment to most who post here.
First let me apologize for being so late to this thread.
Sounds like the judge paid you a nice compliment on your bitch, and good for you to have her in the Bred-by class which is always the toughest class at any AKC show. Also, your bitch is young, only 20 months, and the judge may have felt that she needed a bit more maturity, perhaps? You might try showing to this judge again when your girl is older, as this person did seem to like your bitch.
As we say with the Labradors...some of which have become notoriously large-boned and clunky (and probably couldn't jump out of a hunter's boat, much less scramble back into one after getting the duck) recently in the show ring...how can the judges find the good, functional Labradors capable of doing work if no one takes them to the shows?
Thusly, how can the judges find the functional GSDs if no one takes them to the shows?
First of all, the AKC standard for GSDs difers from the FCI standard, which should be the only standard. The AKC is a member of the FCI. Therefore, in my opinion it is criminal to rewrite a standard without the approval of the FCI. Further, the GSDCA was given an ultimatum by the SV to conform to some sort of selection in the breeding process. It is time for the SV to take a good critical look at this again. Unfortunately, they are too busy and have other battle axes to grind. Anybody who read the SV President's report in the last issue of the maagzine knows what I am talking about.
My experience to the AKC show ring was limited but a true eye opener: In 1993, we had a beautiful V-rated male which we had imported from Germany. His bitework was really nice and that is why we imported him. Joe, my husband wanted to become a helper and this was the perfect opportunity since one of Germany's teaching helpers was going to stay with us for a year to study abroad. While we were training along, we found out by coincidence that this dog not only worked well (he was written up in 1995 by the now defunct Dog Sports Magazine for his bitework), but he was also beautiful. So, we started showing him and he did well. Then, we decided to enter him in an all-breed AKC show up in Cumberland, MD (if I am not mistaken) in 1994. Back then, I was involved in AKC obedience with my 11x SchH3 female. Well, our poor boy placed dead last. My husband approached the judge afterwards to ask why. The judge was nervous, did not want any discussion and told my husband that our dog was a mere pet quality dog. That was it. We felt like outcasts anyway. None of the other exhibitors would talk to us. They just stared and whispered. Spectators came to us and shook our hands wanting to pet our dog. they said repeatedly that they did not understand why that happened as he was obviously so much better looking than the light-boned barrel-chested spooks who shied away from any sudden movement (not my words, just quoting other people). I have to say a few days after the show, I received a phone call from a German woman who was interested in breeding a couple of her American bitches to our boy since he was "not roached". Her name was Gish or Kish, something like that. Wife to somebody important in the American breed ring. We got into an argument about these AKC dogs since I told her what I thought of them. Needless to say we never saw or heard from her again. A few months later in April 1995, our pet quality male was awarded VA-5 at the USA Sieger Show by SV judge Ernst Rueckert. I told this story once to Fred Lanting and he wanted to know from me who that AKC judge was, but I could not remember. Are there any archives to check on this?
"Lastly, we find it really, realy odd that people who haven't accomplished much would come onto this message board and critique other people and their dogs."
Well, that's what message boards do. Have discussions. You don't need to be an accomplished handler/trainer in order to have interesting conversations and discussions, or to "earn" the right to post your thoughts and questions, as this comment seems to imply. I'd hate to see anyone bullied into not sharing and participating by comments like this, that would really be too bad.
GSDxephyr, that comment made me laugh, too! This is one of the tamer discussions we've had about AKC dogs, and some of the comments have been quite complimentary towards dogs and judges!
If Dan read some of the stuff on this board when we REALLY get into it, it'd curl his hair!
Sibersee, I'd read that story before (you posted it elsewhere) and it's really sad. I was thinking of it when I made my first post in this thread.
Sunsilver, thanks. I guess I sometimes repeat myself. But it was quite "traumatizing" for me, to say the least. It influenced my opinion on AKC and their dogs for years to come. I never paid anymore attention to AKC events afterwards. Maybe, these dog are now better than they used to be, who knows. The only thing I would like to know who the judge was. Maybe, somebody can find out for me. It really bothered my husband, because Sammy was his everything. He still misses him today. Sam died an untimely death due to perianal fistulas.
Dan Smith: I never made his acquaintance although he used to live fairly close. His first wife Sandy was in the same Schutzhund club as we were in the early 90s (Maryland TOP Dog Club), but I lost contact with her as well. I used to refer people to them when I got calls for black GSD here in our D.C. metro area.
Mr. Smith, if you read this: I would love your opinion on my black boy Onyx! Should I dare to enter him in an AKC ring or would he be considered roached as well? www.vomsilbersee.com/onyx.html I am not involved in any politics. I just would love your opinion as somebody with experience. It would be nice if you could chime in here.
On November 21, 2003, Galaxy von Ajaye, my dog, was entered in the 6-9 month puppy class at the Northeastern Maryland Kennel Club in Friendship, MD.
He obtained first place and a blue ribbon. There were only 2 pups in the class. He went up against Darby-Dan's Louisiana Ligtning bred by Marilyn & Daniel Smith. The judge was Mrs. Sandi F. Goldman.
So, he went on for Group but of course did not go further.
I will say this, everyone was very nice to me and my puppy at this show. They all wanted to know more about him. I found it to be a very nice experience and for my puppy it was a great way to get him out and about.
"Why would I need to intimidate anyone? I am not asking you to buy my dogs. I don't even have litters very often. If you don't like them, don't breed to them, don't buy them and don't show under my husband. We were trying to educate. If you want to show in the American ring, you have to show a dog that:
a - looks to be in the condition that the other American dogs in the ring are;
and b - presents itself in a way that American dogs present itself.
Do not bring a dog to an AKC show that is running at your side, is butt-high an has no front and say, 'Well, it has great structure.' If the judge can't see the structure, he/she can't judge it."
Regarding the puppy named Onyx, whose owner asked for a critique from Dan:
"A very attractive dog standing. The problem is he has to be able to move with the dogs in the ring with him. Right now, it looks like maybe you want to give it a try. You're dealing with two problems, forget that he is German. You are dealing with black. You need to find judges who like black. That's not everyone. If you need a list, email us and we'll give it to you. Darbdan@aol.com
I respect their honesty on 1) must move like other American dogs do, and 2) present itself the way American dogs do. The world knows that the American show dog has evolved into another breed that is centered around sidegait and not working. Not be negative or judgemental just stating the obvious to all throughout the world. But in respect to the founder of the breed and the founding organization to the breed, GSDCA should petition that the name of this dog be changed to American shepherd. Then the breed standard can be adhered to in ring and field. The working dogs be GS as was originally intended and the AS can be the sidegaiting soft dog that has evolved.JMO
Hi, Dr. Goldfarb is our judge for our WDA show in May. He is a very good judge and truly a southern gentleman. He is a class act and I would tell anyone to use him for your shows.
When you talk about politics it's just as bad in Germany.
Thanks for you input and don't let them discourge you! We'll keep showing our 'correct' dogs and maybe it will make a difference.
I have belonged to an AKC club for over 20 years and have bred an AM. CH....was pretty easy even though she was 1/2 + 1/2. I know most of these judges......Dr. Goldfarb is by far the nicest and he is very knowledgeable. Truly a southern gentlemen. He is doing our show in May and I am already receiving good comments.
Some of the other judges have imported German dogs, but still do not have the courage to 'put them up' in the AKC ring. As far as Jimmy goes - it's time for him to go. He can't really show a dog that well anymore and as far as I am concerned he is doing a disservice to the breed. No one wants to go up against him and quite frankly I have seen some of the dogs he shows and their temperament is iffy. Not one judge has the b---s to put up a better dog. Not that Jimmy shows bad dogs, but some are not that hot.
At our show one year we had several German dogs that entered, even though it was a "GSD Speciality". The handlers and dogs were treated poorly and I was completely disgusted. Poor sportsmanship and awful manners. But we need to keep showing our sound German dogs and maybe, just maybe we can make a difference.
For anyone interested, there are a couple of Yahoo groups email lists devoted to the likes and dislikes of AKC judges. You may be able to find out if a certain judge will be more amenable to a German import from this list:
The judges in this country think the German dogs have bad fronts and roach backs.....have they ever seen Yasko move? He moves beautiful. Some of the American dogs literally slap the air their shoulder is so open. I personally don't see many roached backs either anymore. But I sure see alot of lousy rears in the AKC ring. Who in the world thinks that a dog that walks on his hock is attractive? The American public can't seem to understand it either.Go to a big all breed show and lister the the comments from the public. At least the Germans corrected the roach and it was only around for a short time. I still those cripples and the judges keep putting them up.
Too bad the American judges can only judge on 'side gait'. They have completely forgotten temperament and so many other important things. Some day I am going to go to a specialty show and shoot off a gun just to see how sound the neves are in that ring.......
Probably not very well at all and let's not forget, oh they would have to be titled. LOL
It's just two different worlds and sad that it has split so far and not just how the dogs look. The split between American and German. Also talking the split between German show and German working lines.
Blitzen, if you follow the German parent club's regulations, dogs that are not titled or breed surveyed, do not receive pink papers. If you for example bred a female that was titled but not breed surveyed to a titled, breed surveyed male, the litter would have "white" papers. I believe I am correct here. What you are looking for are unbroken pedigrees of titled, conformation rated and breed surveyed animals. Once it is broken, it is impossible to take that beautiful puppy to the top and make it into a "breeding" animal. It goes so far that if parent animals of a particular dog are not breed surveyed by a German SV judge, this may have an effect on if the dog can go VA or not.
Your German dog, even if untitled, not OFA'd or similar hip/elbow checks, or coming from a non-conform "German Parent Club" pedigree has a much better chance to finish in the AKC ring, as proven by Jim and Esko.
Assume the top 10 winning Am lines GSD's (or the GSD's that were shown at the Garden this year) were put into a ring with the VA's from last year's NASS. How do you think they would compare? I realize that may be a difficult question to answer since most with imports don't look at Am lines and vice versa. I was a big fan of Dallas and often thought he could probably have held his own competing against some of the best from Germany.
My ultimate paragraph is misleading. What I meant to say that a dog out of German lines that is untitled/ofa's or equivalent hip/elbow rating, not breed surveyed or conformation rated, or has parents with equal lacking pedigrees has a better chance of finishing in AKC. Jim and Esko proved that German lined dogs can do it.
Dallas was a fine dog. But he just would never have the pedigree to do anything in the German ring. IMO. I am however unsure why he was so successful in AKC because he is probably the most German looking dog I have ever seen coming out of American conformation lines. Surely he was not a "specialty" type dog. But now I am speaking out of absolute ingnorance.
I recall showing some of my dogs from German bloodlines under well-known handler/judges at AKC sanctioned matches.
Once, 4 littermates were shown in the same class. None of them were considered as serious contenders for high placements. The dog that looked "the most German" came in dead last--despite the fact that he was the best of the siblings--had been VP-1 in a class of 16 under Rückert. I heard some of the good-sporting exhibitors referring to these little guys as "Germs".
At another match, one judge said he would love to take one of my dogs home with him. However, he could place him no higher because he "looked to German".
I showed several dogs at an AKC-licensed-specialty show under a well-known breeder/judge who should have appreciated the German type--based on the appearance of her own dogs. However, my dogs (who had done extremely well with SV judges) were SOL when it came to decent placings at this event.
As far as I'm concerned, showing our German-bred dogs at AKC shows (as credible contenders) is largely an exercise in futility without a well-known handler--JMHO. I will be glad to name any of the above judges.
OTH, I recall showing an AKC bitch (yes, as a puppy, she had also placed high under Dan Smith) bitch under SV judge Grottendieck to an SG rating in an untitled class. One of her adult "half-breed" (1/2 German--1/2 American--later schutzhund itled) sons received an SG rating in a 12-18 or 18-24 class under Walter Martin!
When I titled my German-bred male (V-rated, SchH3) to AKC obedience titles, we were criticized for our animated schutzhund-style heeling. At AKC trials, it looks more professional for a handler to carry the right arm with elbow bent and clasped at the waist. One obedience judge also questioned the size of my SchH1 dumbbell in AKC Open obedience.
So much for my masochism!! I'm too old to "make a difference".
It's a very simple matter. Just look at about 10 win photos of the American Shepherd GSDCA (AS) select dogs and then compare them to 10 photos of German Shepherd (GS) SV VA dogs or high V dogs with little or no roach. They look completely diffferent because essentially they are different breeds. The differences are clearly obvious to anyone who is objective.
The American Shepherds (AS) have noticebly pushed forward fronts, with very steep upper arms almost extending straight line from the lower legs (when posed). The AS dogs have long flat, weak backs, steep croups, long lower rear thigh bones (sickle hocks) and shorter hocks. The AS are long, really long and look like a suspension bridge (they look terribly distorted, terribly ugly to me), and the AS males have large , long bodies, small flat skulls, long banana muzzles and look bitchy. The colors for the most part are much less attractive han the GS dogs, usually black saddles with tan or grey. he coats are inferior and shorter than most GS dogs.
Now in most cases the German Shepherds (GS dogs, ie from german bloodlines from Deutschland) have good proportions, the males have large nice, correct heads, shorter backs, proper setback to the front upper arm and shoulder blade, proper withers, longer rear hocks, shorter lower rear thighs and upper rear legs bones (close in lengths). The pigment is usuallty quite attractive with black saddles and red or "braun". The sex type differenxces between males and females are distinct and proper in the GS and not in the AS.
I suggest you print out these dog's photos off of this site, take tissue paper and trace the outlines of the photos. Label them AS or GS and then compare them one over the other up against a light source. The differences are exactly what I state here because I have done this and it is conclusive. I think AS dogs are really ugly and should have their own standard (they don't follow the one they have now accurately, however). If this is what they want, fine, but these creatures are not real German Shepherds anymore, they are derivative prancing ponies, selectively bred for the show ring only. I have coompared these with a top AS breeder and he admits the differences but likes the looks of the AS much better!
In American shows, especially at the National, it all depends on who is judging. A couple of years ago a half German bitch went Select 2, she had finished at specialties, with all majors. In recent years several of the grand victors were very moderate, with correct proportions, and better fronts and strong, athletic rears. Honky tonk Man (2005) and Army of One(2007) are both very moderate and closely related to Dallas. Both have excellent bone and masculine heads. Then move well, keeping thier feet close to the ground. Dallas , BTW, finished at specialties and his owner handled him to many of this points. I've had the pleasure of working Honky Tonk Man on sheep and much like Dallas, this dog is awesome. He has strong work ethic and excellent character. However his owners live five and half hours away. And he is now nine years old , so he only earned a PT. I've also worked several of his and Dallas' progeny and as a rule they have excellent characteristics. Better than many of the dogs I work with whether American or German bred.
If you want to be successful in the American ring with your German bred dogs then you need take good dogs. They are not going to look at your pedigree. You need to take dogs do not have a roach. The dog needs to move out in front of you with out mincing steps, moving faster than they are shown at a German show. They need to move out. Look at your fronts and rears closely, are you taking a puppy who is easty westy? Or a dog that has long, cow hocks. Are you showing that dog to its advantage? put him with a professional and see the difference. Also consider showing several so they don't look that different. Get a group of your friends together and put several dogs in each class. Make sure they are groomed to the nines. I've seen lots of German dogs that I felt would do well at the AKC shows, most of the judges do not like the unsoundess of many of the American dogs either. I believe that is why Dallas did so well. However, you got to show them well, and do not expect to win all the time. Keep at it, learn how to show them well, and take good, sound, correct dogs, and you will win your share.
I'm not good at judging a GSD by a photo only, Preston, so need some help in that area. It seems to me that the AS's are traditionally set up to show an extremely sloping topline, the more slope the better, and they are stretched beyond looking like normal dogs that could function as tending dogs 24/7. On the other hand, it looks to me like many of the German highline dogs are traditionallly set up to look roached on their photos with squatted "frog-like" rears and they don't look like normal dogs to me either. I'm not quite sure why either of those poses are so popular. If those photos are all that are used to judge either "type" then it's no wonder most AS breeder hate the imports and vice versa. Seen in the flesh these dogs can look a lot different. I've found that suggesting an import breeder go to a big AKC show and look at the GSD entries is like suggesting most Am lines breeders attend NASS. They think if they get caught looking they will be turned into a pillar of salt. There are a few exceptions and these are generally the breeders who are combining the AS and the GS and coming up with some nice dogs.
I have printed out photos of a few of the top German showline dogs, the ones with the most rear angulation, and place a straight edge along their backlines. That made them look pretty damned "American" to me. When the roach is hidden I honestly didn't see an shorter a back on any of the GS's than I did on the AS's. I'll have to try the tracing suggestion. The biggest difference for me was the head shape, overall substance and the length of leg. The AS seems to be lower stationed with shorter legs than the GS's, I myself don't care much for that and sometimes I find it hard to judge if a dog is out of balance due to too long a back or too short a leg. I need to learn more about how to do that too.
I didn't get to the Garden this year, saw the breed video, and did noticed that a few of those dogs there didn't look quite as extreme as they have been in the past. The dog I liked the best was sired by a Jim son. I like Moses's Dallas daughter too. Haven't seen either dog in the flesh. Anyone who has attended that show knows the rings are way too small to move out a GSD at the right speed, so forget even looking at movement if you ever go there.
I guess we all see something different when we look at a GSD; I happen to like many dogs from both sides of the pond including most of the working lines I've seen. Whoever said beauty is in the eye of the beholder was a very wise man or woman, but probably not a dog show judge
Here is the KEY from SMITH "presents itself in a way that American dogs present itself"!!!!
"Do not bring a dog to an AKC show that is running at your side, is butt-high an has no front and say, 'Well, it has great structure.' If the judge can't see the structure, he/she can't judge it."
Buts its OK for the dog to have a straight front and stand 27"-28" tall, as long as it can moves!!
Can a Judge not tell structure from a clean coming & going, and a stack?
Yes Mr. Smith the dog is trained in SchH Obedience, but I guess this is a bad thing.
Funny 155 dogs entered in the Specialty Show, NOT one with a non-conformation title!!
My daughter placed him SG1 in the Adult Open Class at the Canadian Nationals & Sieger Show a few weeks latter.
Were he HE measured 25" tall, by SV Judge Mr. Ernst Seifert.
The dog that placed behind him was handled by the Judges grand son, this dog went SG1 at the USA Sieger Show.
Rather tacky that the Smiths don't simply register on such a public board and post themselves. Even had they had the least little thing positive to say, it would still be tacky. As it was just fear-biter defensiveness...Sad
JMO, as a person who stopped going to AKC shows after a life-time of attendnance, because what I saw in the gsd ring, what had been done to this wonderful breed, made me physically ill, after I became more educated about the breed as a result of getting into schutzhund. I train, trial, title and have shown and surveyed--all SV-style.
Look at the AKC show catalogues: you will not see even 2 entries in the AKC show ring with parents who have OB titles--you do see entries and parents of entries with OB and TDs among the rottsand dobies. That always struck me as odd.
Sorry - I have a mildly stupid question here - but what exactly do you mean by butt high? Do they mean uphill...in that the shoulders are lower than the rear end?
If that is the case I can just not agree...highlines definetley arent high in the rear...personally I think they're too low....makes me wonder what they would think of WLs in the ring
When I get my working line pup I might just be asshole enough to try O.o
The crippled American dogs can NOT jump their own Height, so getting past Novice Class would be very hard.
Maybe the American Shepherd can get added to the SPECIAL LIST and only jump 3/4 of the dogs height, like the Dachshunds.
'She said, and I quote - ".......I think they are ugly"'
Well, I'd agree with Ms Fisher.
I'm sure she's referring to the roach-backs. (Roach-backs are too, VERY prevalent from what I see, contrary to some claiming they're gone - pishtosh.) Possibly also the huge bear-heads that tend to hang low rather than a decent natural dog-carriage.
Of course, I think "American" dogs are ugly; too narrow (like Irish Setters), weak stops/heads, large but weak ears (often), over-long pasterns everywhere which flop about and appear Paso-Fino-like just when walking.
The truth is both American-show and German-show leave alot to be desired, conformation-wise.
Also, the truth is some German and some "half-breeds" (if you will) ARE getting into the AKC ring and some are chipping away at the status quo.
I agree with the person who said about Labs - how can you make a difference if you don't fight directly and go to the shows? I know this is true of Labs, as well as GS. You just give up and wash your hands of them, and say "I'll never support that" - but you're NOT fighting it! And so they have won and gotten a niche in the bloodlines, so major some say it should be a different breed.
BTW, for all those "different breed" comments - why? There was no effort to do so, per se, and no cross-breeding to dogs who were absolutely a different breed or mutts to obtain this style; it was built into the breed, just bad choices. They are NOT a different breed, and from what I've seen can be outcrossed successfully. (Of course, neither is the "white GS", but that didn't stop angry people from separating.)
I'll still say the greatest dog I ever knew of, bar none, was the 1 I was privileged to own years ago, who was shall we say, a "total outcross". But she looked like a Shepherd SHOULD look (being not ANY of the fashionable , and had temperament to die for - not unstable at all, and didn't need "conditioning" to "learn" to be stable, as I see too many times even here.
Since you asked about American Champions, this is a dog I like (he was the #2 dog in AKC behind Dallas for a couple of years). Ch Andaka-Zederland's U R It www.members.aol.com/andaka/tagfile.htm
He's got preformance titles as did his sire and I know the owners are currently working him in Agility, Obedience and tracking.
Forget AKC shows. If your dog isn't an ugly ASS that looks like a giraffe he won't place. Look at the last Westminster GSD entry. Sad and disgusting - AKC shows are a lost cause, don't waste your time.
byceltic, nice that the dog is smart and has good temperament and has attained degrees. However he is way off the SV/FCI standard and built like almost all American Shepherds (AS). See my comment above as to why and get your tracing paper out. The dog you refer to is a long, long dog with a long, long back. Not a real GS in my view. So far from what a real West German import blooded GSD that it is "in your face" obvious.
celtic/Melissa - he's not perfect but he IS better than many from what I can tell. More typical "all-breed" dog - the BETTER American dogs (which many here don't realize are different types, themselves), despite not "focusing" on GS with "real GS people who concentrate on GS". We see where that's gotten us. All-breed people tend to see the forest for the trees better, which I dare say many in the breed including in Germany do not.
Conformation-wise I do GENERALLY like the "working-line" dogs better than any others, but I see plenty of regular dogs out there whom all GS-sport-obsessed people would frown upon who seem much more proper intended breed type than the high-bred high-cost dogs in the hobbies supposedly "to standard" (which many are not, in truth). The AKC standard BTW, really is not that different from others. I can't see it. The problem is what (popular, powerful) people decide it says vs. what it really says. I believe that trust has been broken on both sides of the pond. The dogs are not the same as they were 50 years ago, and I do not believe what we have "in style" is an improvement on that at all. The working lines do fit it better. But generally, the show lines all do not hold a candle to the *natural* dog of 50 years ago, IMHO.
Since the americans who breed for AKC shows think they do it so much better than the germans, why not rename the american line dog American Show Shepherd and be done with it? They look nothing like true GSDs, the dog at the end of the line in an SV show is so much better than anything we saw at Westminster.
FCI/SV standard for the GSD. Take a typical photo of Ursus Batu and you'll see a GSD that is perfect to the standard. I am referring to the current FCI standard as approved by the SV, not ones older. But you can take the photo Oli uses on his header is you like or if you want I will list many GSD of West German breeding that are very close to this standard. Anyone who examines all the top American AKC/GSDCA specialty show photos and compares them to the top SV show photos will immediately understand the generic differences in structure. If they can't then their perceptual skills are comprimised. In that case using tissue paper tracings to compare one to another and to the standrad is often helpful.
Old Line Rebel, I wish I'd have saved Fisher's article (or interview, I've forgotten which). I don't recall her specifically mentioning toplines. Her comment was directed more at the overall look/type of the German dogs. I took it to mean she felt they were not as "pretty" as the AS's. AKC is all about pretty and not much else
Just about none. I attended the GSDCA National Specialty Show in Denver last year (2207). The pigment was unattractive in general, mostly very distorted dogs, some agitated to the point I suspected some kind of stimulants used. Long dogs with long lower rear thighs. A few with correct fronts, 95% not. I didn't see any really strikingly attractive dogs like I saw at the NASS at St. Louis (about 50% of them and over 90% black and red). Look if folks dig the AS okay, but just admit the truth that they are distorted and need a new standard permitting front to be pushed forward, long backs, and klong lower rear legs.
Thought I might as well spice your day a bit more, Preston.
Unless continuing flood of German imports wrought major change, it always was relatively easy to pick the American dog, if not from the way it was ever criticized as comprising exaggerated (photogenic) profile instead of substance.
But why so sure that Ursus or similar is perfect to the Standard - FCI or old SV. Other than noting height/length proportions and fair bit of detail where separate parts are concerned – hocks, croup, chest, ribs, withers, loin etc – they both specify very little about overall shape; seeming partly to rely on some assumption that because the dog is meant to be a trotter, the rest will automatically fall into place.
As quick example, take sentence: “The back, including the loins, is straight and strongly developed yet not too long between the withers and the croup.” And: “With his head thrust forward and a slightly raised tail, a balanced and even trotter will have a topline that falls in moderate curves from the tip of the ears over the neck and level back through the tip of the tail.”
Who can say that present show type, or Ursus, have straight, level backs!? Then, being finicky, the back should be “not too long” – as compared to what pray tell! (And, just as an aside, how many VA dogs have 105 degrees plus fore angle say rather than 90?)
And in comparing German to American (in show-ring or otherwise) note how AKC Standard requires a rear angle of ninety degrees (between upper and lower thigh, and with toes lining up with croup end!) whereas SV/FCI’s stipulates 120 instead (a difference of 30 degrees!) Theoretically, in lieu of the broader structural implications for respective dogs’ physiques (height, length, front, back etc), it should be quite impossible (assuming AKC Standard was factually observed), if not nonsensical, for them to compete in the same Ring; structure-wise, you’re really looking at different dogs.
Start Page
Search Website
Login
Messagelist
Post Reply
.
I was thinking of it when I made my first post in this thread.
