Looking for opinions on the below xrays taken today of my 2 year old female. I am sending them in for review by the USA/SV A stamp and have a second set for OFA.
My condolences. It's an awful feeling to find out after 2 years that your beloved dog's hips are bad. I just had that experience with my male.
I've switched to the PennHIP method instead of OFA so that I can get a better prediction of final outcome at a younger age. My male passed OFA prelims, hips and elbows at 1 year, only to fail both hips and elbows at 2. I wish I would have known sooner but OFA won't give final ratings till 2. Never more! We had our Malinois done at 6 months with PennHIP, and when I got my new GSD pup (here we go again) I had the breeder modify the contract to accept PennHIP as a valid method in addition to OFA and a-stamp, for the hip guarantee.
Slowly but surely I am losing faith in OFA. Lately I've seen GSD xrays that IMO should have easily passed come back as dysplastic, questionable xrays get goods, better ones get fairs. I had 2 dogs that were rated as mildly dysplastic at 25 months that were redone and got numbers and good ratings 2 months later. If there was any question in your mind about your dog's xarys, Yvette, I strongly suggest you do the dog again or use the SV. I hate to see anyone give up on a dog based on an OFA evaluation unless the dog is clearly dysplastic. I'd have to question one that passed it prelims and failed at 24 months.
Not so fast. The positioning of this hip xray is bad, with the dog rotated or twisted off center along the spine. I doubt that the ofa would even accept these. Have them retaken by a more experienced Vet who has done a lot of GSD xrays for the ofa. These might be an ofa fair, or fast normal.
Actually I can't see that the x-ray positioning is crooked at all - looks almost exactly straight to me. Could be a little clearer picture, but I can see enough to see that they are not so good. Positioning IMO couldn't be much straighter.
Aight - lol - gotta ask the question since I am very new to the whole hip thing.
What makes you say that he's got HD. Is it that the balls are kind of coming out of the socket?
I have a hard time reading these things I think...mine get pennhipped so I look more at the DI radiographs than anything else,,,,and they're usually pretty self explanatory. For these what makes up a bad hip? Is it the fit? The space between the ball and the bottom of the socket, the shape of the ball, etc...
This is from thr OFA's official explanation of their grades..their pictures & text...all credited to the OFA. Excellent (Figure 1): this classification is assigned for superior conformation in comparison to other animals of the same age and breed. There is a deep seated ball (femoral head) which fits tightly into a well-formed socket (acetabulum) with minimal joint space. There is almost complete coverage of the socket over the ball.
Good (Figure 2): slightly less than superior but a well-formed congruent hip joint is visualized. The ball fits well into the socket and good coverage is present.
Fair (Figure 3): Assigned where minor irregularities in the hip joint exist. The hip joint is wider than a good hip phenotype. This is due to the ball slightly slipping out of the socket causing a minor degree of joint incongruency. There may also be slight inward deviation of the weight-bearing surface of the socket (dorsal acetabular rim) causing the socket to appear slightly shallow (Figure 4). This can be a normal finding in some breeds however, such as the Chinese Shar Pei, Chow Chow, and Poodle.
Borderline: there is no clear cut consensus between the radiologists to place the hip into a given category of normal or dysplastic. There is usually more incongruency present than what occurs in the minor amount found in a fair but there are no arthritic changes present that definitively diagnose the hip joint being dysplastic. There also may be a bony projection present on any of the areas of the hip anatomy illustrated above that can not accurately be assessed as being an abnormal arthritic change or as a normal anatomic variant for that individual dog. To increase the accuracy of a correct diagnosis, it is recommended to repeat the radiographs at a later date (usually 6 months). This allows the radiologist to compare the initial film with the most recent film over a given time period and assess for progressive arthritic changes that would be expected if the dog was truly dysplastic. Most dogs with this grade (over 50%) show no change in hip conformation over time and receive a normal hip rating; usually a fair hip phenotype.
Mild Canine Hip Dysplasia (Figure 5): there is significant subluxation present where the ball is partially out of the socket causing an incongruent increased joint space. The socket is usually shallow only partially covering the ball. There are usually no arthritic changes present with this classification and if the dog is young (24 to 30 months of age), there is an option to resubmit an radiograph when the dog is older so it can be reevaluated a second time. Most dogs will remain dysplastic showing progression of the disease with early arthritic changes. Since HD is a chronic, progressive disease, the older the dog, the more accurate the diagnosis of HD (or lack of HD).
Moderate Canine Hip Dysplasia: there is significant subluxation present where the ball is barely seated into a shallow socket causing joint incongruency. There are secon
Moderate Canine Hip Dysplasia: there is significant subluxation present where the ball is barely seated into a shallow socket causing joint incongruency. There are secondary arthritic bone changes usually along the femoral neck and head (termed remodeling), acetabular rim changes (termed osteophytes or bone spurs) and various degrees of trabecular bone pattern changes called sclerosis. Once arthritis is reported, there is only continued progression of arthritis over time.
Severe HD (Figure 6): assigned where radiographic evidence of marked dysplasia exists. There is significant subluxation present where the ball is partly or completely out of a shallow socket. Like moderate HD, there are also large amounts of secondary arthritic bone changes along the femoral neck and head, acetabular rim changes and large amounts of abnormal bone pattern changes.
IF OFA was right and this dog did have normal hips at 12 months, that seems to be another good indication that xrays at 12 months aren't always diagnostic and a final evaluation should not be issued until the dog is older. SV's 12 month lower limit for an evaluation could be too young to catch all the dysplastic dogs and some could slip throught the cracks and be used for breeding. That might answer some of the questions about why there seems to be so much HD in this breed even when there are generations of clear dogs in the pedigree.
IMO another xray would not get this dog an OFA number; I believe she is moderately to severely dysplastic, quite a profound change from having normal hips at 12 months. Some manipulation might improve the fit of the balls in the sockets, but there is a lot of remoldeling at the necks and flattening of the heads which is not the result of a poorly positioned xray; it's the result of a loose fit and wear and tear on the hip joints. To me this xray looks like it is positioned correctly. Having said that, I don't want to discourage Reno from having her done again if she feels that's the right thing to do. Can't hurt.
That has nothing to do with the age of the dog. I let x-rayed my female with 4 years in elbows. Result normal like with a younger dog.
I asked because another reason: If you know the dog has bad hips with 12 month you doesnt need to work with him, better to use him for normally family dogs without sport ect.
If this dog has HD with 2 years - he has had HD with 12 month too.
BUT: ever in former times one white, like the hip is - the better one can decide for the future of the dog.
It is normal that a GSD is fully trained in the age of two years. If it bad hips has - full training makes it only worse. Therefore it is to be known better with 12 months the truth.
Senta, the point is that at 12 months you might not always be able to tell which dogs are normal and which dogs aren't. So, for some dogs, 12 months is too young for a final xray. The xray here is a prime example of a dog that was said to have normal hips at 12 months, but now looks dysplastic at 24 months. I assume most breeders want to know the truth, not just get an ZW or an OFA number. Certainly if I had a GSD that was certified by the SV at only 12 months of age, I'd want to take another look at the hips when that dog was at least 24 months old to be sure there were no changes. I'd be especially insistant on that if this dog produced more than the expected number of dysplastic progeny.
OFA used to issue numbers at 12 months too until they learned that some of those dog were turning up dysplastic when they were older. They then raised their lower age limit to 24 months for a permanent evaluation. There is no upper age limit as far as I know.
again, I don't think Reno said that THIS dog was x-rayed normal at 12 months??????? As far as I can tell, the 2-year x-rays shown here are the first ones. So I don't think there is reason to believe the hips were normal at 12 months and dysplastic now.
Sorry for the confusion, my fault. It was SchHBabe who said her dog was prelimed normal at 12 months, hips and elbows, but failed to get a number at 24 months. That might be a dog worthwhile xraying again.
Renofan didn't say whether or not her dog was xrayed before.
IMO ....Ball is not covered enough in the socket. The xray seems alittle scewed, if you look at the knees. You could have them retaken by another Vet or try Pennhip.
@Blitzen:
I think already that the hips change in the course of the life - as a function of the employment of the dog. As I understand, go it with HD however not around arthrose/wear but around a hereditary assessment, those quite with 12 months visibly become - that the "joint pan" is not correctly developed in relation to the "ball joint" - thus a development disturbance through transmission. In G dogs are already x-rayed with 6-7 months for the first time, in order to have a prognosis. This x-rayed is not recognized, but the breeder has a prognosis.
( Sorry for this bad english - it is translated with babefish, hopefully without misunderstandings )
I did not have Molly xrayed at 12 months. She is also a pet, so not an option to return or give away, it would not have mattered to me if she failed at 12 months or 2. I simply waited until 2 since it was an ofa requirement. I was planning on sending her xrays to both ofa and sv. I only started competing in ob a few years ago and just started schutzhund training with Molly in August of 2007. We are beginners, but Molly's seems to enjoy it. I am receiving conflicting information regarding continuing to train her. Some say - she does not know - so keep training and modify it if and when it begins to bother her and some are saying stop training immediately. My dogs live in the house - I currently have 3, of which 2 are dysplatic and the one with good hips has no drive and does not have a suitable temp for schutzhund. I have to seriously consider if I have the time, energy or to be honest the heart to get another gsd puppy and start again. Schbabe I admire you for jumping in and trying again. Molly has a great temperment and has been a dream to train with. None of my other dogs picked things up so easily, so it will be a huge disappointment if her career is also cut short by this. I would never risk her health, but I don't want to treat her with kid gloves and stop doing things she enjoys because I am afraid for her.
I had also emailed Molly's xrays to her breeder in belgium. Not to complain but because I valued her opinion. She sent them to her vet - and you guys are right on again. The vet said - definately hd, etc and will not receive an acceptable rating. This breeder has been honest and straight forward and has kept in touch for the past years on Molly's progress and has shared with me the progress of her dam and siblings. We had no contract - so she owes me nothing, but was kind enough to offer me a pup from a future litter. It is nice to know for all the bad stories we see about breeders on this board - there are just as many good ones out there. Her kindness is truly appreciated and just helps to know that she is almost as disappointed as I am.
I decided to mail in the xrays anyway - not because I expect a passing rating, but I wonder how accurate hd statistics can be if we don't send in the failures. This is the second time my vet said don't bother mailing these xrays in as they won't pass. I think they should be encouraging us to send them in so that we can begin to get accurate statistics.
Hi Renofan, and thank you for sharing your experience with us, i can imagine how disappointed you must be with the results of the x rays. In the U.K x rays can be submitted at 12 months of age for scoring. I wonder just how many would pass as acceptable when x rayed 12 months down the line, upon nearing breeding age. Just my opinion, but i think if somebody chooses to have their dog x rayed, they should submit them for grading/scoring, and not consign a bad set of x rays to the dustbin. I wonder how many hidden x rays there are and how it affects the breed average score/grading overall.
I owned a severly dysplastic dog, out of two excellent dogs, so it does happen, but he led an active and full life, until the age of ten. I think wrapping a dysplastic dog in cotton wool is the wrong way to go, you should rely on your own judgement, how well you know your dog, and let the dog tell you when his quality of life is good or bad. I always kept my boy active and lean, and i like to think he led a good life. As they say, dont throw the baby out with the bath water! Good luck with your dog, you sound like a very caring person and im sure you will manage to give her a full and happy life.
Cheryl, I think you are to be commended for submitting Molly's xrays to OFA and the SV. You are looking at the big picture.
I think that Molly can do anything she wants and you can continue her training. I've had dogs with worse hips that never took a lame step. If she ever does have problems with her hips, she will let you know and you can adjust her acitivity level accordingly. Good luck with her.
I know what you mean about so many dogs with bad hips. happened to me too with another breed. I got fed up and bought a mature bitch with an OFA number since I wanted to breed.
I think that you should continue her training as well, it can be a great learning experience for you until you are ready for another pup. If Molly decides that it's too much for her, you will know.
Isn't there a title that you can get through USCA that just entails tracking and protection? ie: if the height of the jumps is too much for her kind of thing.
I know that the Schutzhund A is Obedience and Protection. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one. :)
Just wanted to give everyone the official ofa results. No surprise - Molly came back - severe hd, with findings of subluxation, remodeling of femoral head/neck, osteoarthitis/degenerative joint disease and shallow acetabula. So again - you guys are spot on with your xray interpretations. I still have to mail a set to the sv, just haven't gotten back to the post office yet and had wanted my personal vet to see them before sending them in.
This is the first time I have I submitted bad had hip results to ofa, so have a question. Since they state - "consensus of evaluations of pelvic phenotype with respect tohip dysplasia. These categories are not eligible for an ofa number". So my question is, since I checked it was ok to release this information - where would someone go to see it? Again, not that I would ever breed a dog with these type of results, but for future reference wanted to know where this would appear? Does it appear without a number, just based on her akc number? Hope the question is clear,
It will go on the OFA websit along with her registered name and registration number. There, people can look it up for future referance. Sorry about your dog. I wish you both the best!
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