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trainer's techniques
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trainer's techniques (15 replies)

trainer's techniques
by railroadwd on 07 January 2008 - 02:01
railroadwd

Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 01:42 am
We just brought our 5 month old female GSD to an obedience trainer for a 30 day program. We went to visit on the third day, and I didn't like some of his tactics. He seems to use pain rather than positive reward. She jumps up on people and to break that habit he has us grab her paws and squeeze and turn them inward which twists her legs, she cries a little then gets down. Also, he hits her on the butt with a plastic baseball bat to get her to sit by his side as he walks her on a 2 foot lead. She laid down once and the trainer stepped on her front paws to cause pain which made her sit up again (because he hadn't told her to lay down). I've always been told that you train a dog with positive reinforcement, not hitting or hurting them. This guy has been in business for 50 years. (he appears to be pushing 75) What are your opinions about this type of training? Our breeder said that this type of force training will cause her to be fearful and cowardly. I thought it might cause her to be aggressive or mean. My husband says that the trainer is not hurting her and this does the job. Help!


trainer's techniques
by hodie on 07 January 2008 - 02:01
hodie

Posts: 2770
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 01:48 am

Without actually knowing the temperament of the dog it is not always easy to suggest what training style does and does not work with a given dog. However, in general, I believe what you are describing for a 5 month old pup is extremely inappropriate. Will it cause the dog to become fearful and cowardly? Perhaps not, but perhaps it will. This depends, in large measure on the temperament of the dog. However, if the man has only tried these kinds of techniques on a pup he has only had for three days, I consider his tactics inappropriate. And frankly, I would worry about what he does with the dog when you are not in attendance.

I train dogs for a living. These are not appropriate techniques in a young pup. You are free to do as you please, but my advice would be to remove the dog and let some of us try to help you find a competent trainer. Just to make it clear, there ARE times when corrections is appropriate and even times when some compulsion might be used, but not in a young pup, and not in a dog who has been with the trainer three days.

My question to you would be how did you choose this person? He is certainly not someone I would take a dog to or recommend, based on what you have written here.



trainer's techniques
by Two Moons on 07 January 2008 - 04:01
Two Moons

Two Moons

Posts: 5320
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 07:21 pm

Is this just obedience training?   It sounds all wrong to me.  You really should do a little reading on training and educate yourself to different techniques.  Some training does cause discomfort and even some pain in measured amounts but there are all kinds of trainers. I agree this doesnt sound right for only a third day into whatever this is.  Stepping on back feet is used sometimes for the jumping up, but not an arm twisting.  One might even put a well placed knee to the chest of the dog to discourage jumping up on people.  I would suggest visiting again right away and maybe address some of your concerns with your trainer.  See what his reaction is, that may decide this issue for you right then and there.   It isnt all that hard to obedience train your own dog with the right information.  I dont use plastic base ball bats either, or a short leash at the begining of obedience.    If I were you I'd get all the knowledge I could now and not let to much time go by.  Get your husband educated as well as yourself.

JMO



trainer's techniques
by Two Moons on 07 January 2008 - 04:01
Two Moons

Two Moons

Posts: 5320
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 07:21 pm

railroadwd,

I've had time to re-think my original post.   GO GET YOUR DOG!  

Find a new trainer with references, real people not letters.  Or train her yourself.  There are alot of good books on the subject.

Brent.



trainer's techniques
by ramgsd on 07 January 2008 - 04:01
ramgsd

Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:30 pm

yes get your dog out of there. he's pushing 75? that would have been my first clue. i would have watched him train some others first. he's probably stuck in the old school training that was total compulsion. compulsion is a tool that is used as a correction only after a dog has learned what he is supposed to do and decides he's not going to listen. then you give a correction. this guy could not have taught your pup enough in 3 days for compulsion to be used at this point. get your pup back and find a better trainer before your dog is ruined. he may be able to train your dog and get him to do what he is told but you will have a dog doing it out of fear and not a happy working animal.



trainer's techniques
by eichenluft on 07 January 2008 - 05:01
eichenluft

Posts: 2323
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 06:19 pm

If you are not comfortable with the training, cancel it and go pick up your dog.  Hopefully he will refund the balance of your money. 

 

molly



trainer's techniques
by yellowrose of Texas on 07 January 2008 - 06:01
yellowrose of Texas

yellowrose of Texas

Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 03:25 am

go get your dog  asap....do not tell the man you are coming to get him....when you get there.....ask can you have your dogs leash and spend a few minutes with your pup...take pups aside   check him for any scars , broken skin or bones....if any thing found  make a notice to him at that time.....hope you do not find anything other than a normal pup intact....take the pups to your car...put him in......take husband and wife....if your husband wont do this  please tell him this is not the right or humane way to treat a   5 month old pup...this is compulsive training for a dog that is 3rd level and has problems...not a baby.....

tell him you do not agree with his methods...Thank him for returning your pup and you do not deem the kind of training to be necessary for his age....and you would like a percentage of your money refunded.......

leave with your pup....write him a letter when you return asking for your partial refund...

be thankful you discovered this...



trainer's techniques
by yellowrose of Texas on 07 January 2008 - 06:01
yellowrose of Texas

yellowrose of Texas

Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 03:25 am

Actually this is not even humane for a level three.....Ive seen so cruel things done in training,,,even compulsive ....worst being a part of a dogs ear taken off while force training and this dog went to nationals.....so never surprises me what kind of instruments get used on a dog in training...but not gonna happen on mine.....

Baseball bats and trying to bend paws back to cause dog pain is not any method I care to use......

 



trainer's techniques
by ecbromley on 07 January 2008 - 11:01
ecbromley

ecbromley

Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:47 am

 First off, "Go Get Your Dog", Today.

10 years ago when I got my first GSD, Shelby, and she started moving from puppy to adolescence, I realized I had to start to learn how to train this dog.  I wanted to kill her, not figuratively but literally.  She was a pain in the a**, or so II thought.  Actually she was a 5 month old pup with no training who had an owner who didn't have a clue (that would be me)  I tried the local Community College obedience class which consisted of the standard "Get a Choke Collar or Prong" and the lady who was teaching meant well, but the class basically was just  showing me how to correct behaviors with the collar. Want the dog to sit, pull up on the collar,  want the dog to down, pull down on the collar, most of you know what I mean.  Well after a couple of weeks I knew one thing, I wasn't having fun and Shelby wasn't having fun.  What I did notice was that before class I would take her to a nearby field and throw the frisby for her to burn off some of the never ending supply of energy this dog has, and during this time she would gladly do anything I asked THAT she KNEW how to do.  That night at class I asked the Trainer if I could just use the Frisbee with her.  To the trainers credit she said to use what ever worked.  We ran through all the excersises that night with the leash dragging behind her, and her ears up and alert.  I soon found another local trainer and began a wonderful 10 years with my dog that continues today.

Some important things to remember when training that I've learned.

The dog ALWAYS has a choice.  Whether you use positive or compulsion, the dog always has a choice, they can choose to do what I ask because all good things come from me and that when I do what the biped asks me to do, great things happen for dogs, or in the case of compulsion training they can do what is asked of them to avoid pain.  But the dog does have a choice.

Call me a wuss for using primarily positive means for my dogs, that's okay, and you won't hear me say that compulsion training doesn't work, obviously it does.  But my dogs and I are happier with a ball and a bag of treats and a pet on the head.

I could talk about this for hours but my new 5 month old puppy is laying quietly at my feet waiting for breakfast and a quick five minute lesson on doggie zen......



trainer's techniques
by KCzaja on 07 January 2008 - 12:01
KCzaja

KCzaja

Posts: 2042
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 03:48 pm

The fact that he let you visit on day 3 set off bells in my head right away. When a dog is sent away for training, it is emotionally easier on the dog to just not see you. The confusion and excitement of going home turns into depression when you leave yet again.  He clearly does not understand/care for her emotions.

Now, I am all for a balance of discipline and reward. I train dogs for a living, and I train dogs that are sent away for "boot camp" type" program.  However it is not enough to just start physically punishing the dog and expect it to understand. you must 1.) teach the appropriate behavior so you can involve something positive. (for example jumping up- the dog sits instead of jumping up "Good dog!") 2.) The dog must understand the concept of reprimand, and what the reprimand itself means, and how to react properly to avoid it.

A baseball bat for sit?! Now granted, with a plastic bat I doubt he's hurting her, but he's at the very least startling her into listening. The appropriate behavior should never be achieved through fear, but rather desire to please.

As a dog trainer and GSD lover, I know damn well rule #1 of training someone else's GSD is be it's friend first.  These dogs bond very tightly to their owners and if you step in and start busting their chops, they will shut down, be miserable, and never forget you were unfair to them. They may listen, eventually, but they'll hate obedience, and also : If you do not treat her the same way when she gets home, which of course you should not, none of this training will stick and you have wasted your money anyway.

Show your husband this thread and go pick up your girl right away. Research your next trainer more thoroughly.



trainer's techniques
by shasta on 07 January 2008 - 13:01
shasta

shasta

Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 08:19 pm

 Amen to that KCzaja! 

I also train dogs for a living and offer in kennel training as well. I don't know about you (it sounds like we kind of do the same things) but even MORESO with shepherds I let the dog have the first couple of days to adjust to the setting, and bond some with the dog (spend time grooming, playing, maybe some handfeeding for obedience type things, take a walk etc.) I normally just prevent poor behavior during those first few days but it's rare indeed to correct a dog for it depending on the dog. Some dogs come in just fine and are perfectly ok, or maybe knew me before we started, with those I might start right away, but even then I wouldn't really correct a dog like that, and particularly a 5 month old shepherd ya know? And I don't allow a visit from the owner within the first week at all. And THEN it's just to come in for handling sessions, very controlled by me...preferably though I don't set up a handling session until the dog has been there for a little longer (I do 3,6,8 week programs) so they're a little more adjusted.

KCzaja is right railroad, I think most trainers wouldn't have the handler come on day 3. Did this trainer do any kind of demo or did you really research before taking your dog there? He doesn't sound BAD per se (I've heard of some very awful in kennel trainers trust me....we're talking like this one near me that literally put a puppy in a crate for 4 days with a bark collar on and did not let the dog out at all (not even to go to the bathroom.) dog had urine scald all over and rub marks on his neck when the owner came for the first lesson at day 4...yikes! The trainer said he was crate training the dog, and that the dog had not been quiet the entire time so he couldn't let him out until he learned to be quiet....) but he sounds pretty "old school" and there's better ways to work with your dog then that. Personally if I were going to be letting my dogs go into anybody else's care without me there, I'd check and double check about them, check references, ask to see him/her work a dog, and not only his demo dog, but also YOUR dog. Ask in detail questions on what sort of training technique he/she uses. And don't just let them say "positive" techniques, many trainers know the buzzwords people want to hear. Ask specific questions like "what would you do if my dog did _______" Remember that trainers do NOT have to have any kind of credentials, anyone can hang a shingle. It's better to find one that DOES take the time to keep up to date, and voluntarily gets credentials (for instance, joins one of the major training organizations (APDT, IACP, NADOI) and passes one of their tests for example). Years of experience may be good, but it's what they DID with those years of experience that makes the difference. A trainer could have been training for 30 years...but if they're still training the same way they did 30 years ago, they won't be as good as someone that has trained for 10 years and has kept up to date and is open to learning anything new to help the dog. 

 Go get your pup out of there before this guy crushes him, and definitely research your trainers better for next time. 



trainer's techniques
by Shelley Strohl on 07 January 2008 - 16:01
Shelley Strohl

Shelley Strohl

Posts: 2896
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 07:18 pm

I agree. Go get your dog. find a trainer whose methods you can live with.

SS



trainer's techniques
by railroadwd on 07 January 2008 - 19:01
railroadwd

Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 01:42 am

Thank you all so much for the advice and comments.  My husband just went and picked up our dog (Ginger!) from the evil trainer!   Now the problem becomes where do we take her?  We would like to bring her to a trainer that would keep her because we both work full time and a once a week class that requires a lot of work with her during the week won't work very well for us right now.  It's kind of like, we need her to have a good month of base training and then we can keep it up.  She can already sit on her own and lay down.  I've taught her that using treats.  We need to work on the loose leash walking and breaking her habits of biting/nipping and jumping up.  We live near BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA.  Please!  Does anyone know of any trainers in our area?  We don't mind traveling to another state, but preferably not a state 3,000 miles away!



trainer's techniques
by Ranchinglady on 07 January 2008 - 19:01
Ranchinglady

Posts: 223
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 09:45 pm

Please bring your dog home! Let her be a loved pup! She's still a child. You can do more about teaching her to be a good citizen by just spending time with her and using more praise than punishment until she's old enough for formal training. She needs happy play ....NOT pinching and hitting.

Please bring her home.......



trainer's techniques
by bsceltic on 07 January 2008 - 21:01
bsceltic

bsceltic

Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 04:35 am

Thank you Thank You Thank you for going and getting your dog.  The training was not appropriate for her.    Try

http://dogtrainersearch.com/ or www.apdt.com to search for qualified trainers in your area.  I don't know if these folks are near you but they might also be able to recommend a good reputable trainer:

CYPRESS WORKING DOG ASSOCIATION (11/01/54)

Peter Betchley, President/TD
802 Highway 457
Lecompte, LA 71346
(318) 776-8538
e-mail:
Bquestwood@aol.com
 

HP Butch Crabtree, Secretary
1332 Old River Road
Mansura, LA 71350
(318) 253-4454

Michael Jouban, Treasurer
P.O. Box 12755
Pineville, LA 71315
(318) 640-0072

 



trainer's techniques
by yellowrose of Texas on 07 January 2008 - 21:01
yellowrose of Texas

yellowrose of Texas

Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 03:25 am

There us also a shreveport .La club and a man I know trains out of that club....I ll get the number..and post later...thank goodness......you did the right thing.......glad you posted here....

Thanks to everyone who stood behind this lady and family....and Baby Ginger     Hope you can post a picture of Ginger for us.....








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