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Classified: Erasmu's son for stud or sale
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Isnt this a little much for line breeding? (47 replies)
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| http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/528777.html |
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| [sigh] American lines. Never mind linebreeding, I've even seen them deliberately inbreed. |
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| I will take my german bred dogs and my czech dogs over American line anyday. I know that my dogs can last on the SchH field. It is sad to see what the Americans have done to the GSD. |
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| No kidding...look at this hockwalker from that same dog's pedigree:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/451707.html
Ugh! |
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| Sunsilver when I used the term american "hockwalkers" on another thread you scolded me and asked me what my point was. Whats up with that? Now you say it. |
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| Don't worry-all these dogs are bent to self-destruct--as if their owners have a death wish for them.
These breeders live ~1.5 hours north of me and bred to my old Ch.UDT. (about 1/2 German) in the late '60's or early '70's. Nice folks--used to belong to the same GSD club in Sacramento.
I know that the gaiting hockwalker, Hoheneichen's Caisson Avalon, die at an early age. |
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| I don't recall the exact thread, Tondawg, but I might have been trying to make the point that not ALL American shepherds are hockwalkers, though that's the trend in the show ring right now.
Louise, you know so much about the American show dogs. What can you tell me about the Imp-Cen kennel? |
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| I know nothing of Imp-Cen kennel--certainly, not on the West Coast. Perhaps I might be familiar with some of their bloodlines--but not their kennel. |
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| They're not on the west coast. I believe they're in Pa. Here's their website: http://www.imp-cenkennels.com/photo4.html
The history is given here: http://www.imp-cenkennels.com/photo4.html and here: http://www.imp-cenkennels.com/photo5.html Lots of pedigree information give on the second history page! |
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| I've heard of some of the dogs 5-6 generations back. I suspect that competed and won at mostly all-breed shows. In my experience, most serious GSD breeders do not breed/show multiple breeds. |
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| Thanks for your input. My pup is a grand-daughter of their ROM bitch, Shiloh's Song. That's why I was interested in anything I could find out about them.
Her sire's side is German showlines (Ursus). |
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| I remember years back when I took an American line pup to obedience class and the instructor asked for her pedigree and when I asked why she said she was looking for any ancestors from the Hoheneichen line because it had been her experience that whenever she had a temperament problem with a GSD it was almost always from that line. Interesting.
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| Interesting that the their male dog suffered from a spleen torsion yet they still stand him out to stud.
I'd be suspicious of this condition, what if it could be genetic?
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| Well, yes--I believe that Eiko Hazelda also had his spleen removed--presumably due to torsion.
Yes, a number of Hoheneichen dogs and their families suffered early deaths. Poor dogs--if I saw that my canine family were dropping like flies, I'd have a temperament problem, too--wondering if I might be next. |
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| Here is a German hockwalker: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/484230.html |
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| I am always baffled that anyone would post such a photo. It's as if the owner doesn't understand the dog is not a good moving GSD. Duh............. |
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| If you want to see a German hock walker in action, go here, and click on the video for Quinn:
http://www/estahaus/com/videos.htm
(If you want to see the American version, just google Westminister. They have the videos up for the BOB competition for last year.)
BTW, I think we're overloading the Estahaus site today. I've only been able to access it once in 4 tries. I want to see the Dingo video: he's supposed to be a wonderful mover, but I can't access it.
Oh well, try again later... |
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| Oh yeah Louise and he made V1. My trust in the judges abilities just went through the roof! Obvioulsy not just the owner Blitzen, he made V1 for craps sake! This is the stuff that just sickens me about showing. My stupid little working line couldn't hold a candle to the cripple, in the ring. Why would I waste my time and money? |
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| Imp-Cen is indeed a PA kennel. The family has been involved since I think late '60s (worst time to start). They were never big until I think very, very recently. They were featured in the 1985 book "Book of the German Shepherd Dog", as if they were a "big kennel", but I think the author just liked them. I live in MD (then, too) and they were never prominent - not even evident - in shows or hot lines.
"I suspect that competed and won at mostly all-breed shows. In my experience, most serious GSD breeders do not breed/show multiple breeds."
Showing in all-breed has nothing to do with being involved in multiple breeds (any more than showing in specialties means you have no other breeds). In fact, generally "all-breed GS" are better than "specialty GS". The latter are extremely extreme. Whereas you can usually find a redeeming conformation quality about all-breeds. |
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| Anyone familiar with the German lines they began with? I know that's going back a long way, but there's a lot of knowledge on this board, and some of you have been around that long.
BTW, I don't think they do other breeds now. If you look at the pics of the Sheltie and the Afghan, you can see it's a very young girl handling them. I believe that's the original owner's daughter, who now runs the kennel. It started in 1964, and they were just about to title their first dog when they ran into financial hardship, and had to stop showing. I'd guess that possibly the owner's marriage broke up, or something like that. The original owner kept breeding, only often enough to keep her line of dogs alive. Now, finally, they are making a name for themselves. I wish them well! |
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| I cant believe this dog is a champion...look at the ear set....not to mention he is a WAY to angulated for my liking..
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/528996.html |
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| http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/527359.html
This one looks like a Peacock. lol
I do hate when they stack this way. :(
We had a client in our grooming shop come in with a 10 yr. old retired AM. show bitch that looked just aweful when she walked. It looked like her back was broken. :(
The kennel she came from breeds for angleation. :( |
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| CH Stretched to the Hilt
and
VA CH Can't Believe I Don't Trip
I have a litter out of these 2 great parents, no OFA's and pups are gauranteed to look painful. Just in time for X-mas. A steal at $3000 a pup. Taking deposits of $1500 right now. Hurry these pups wont last. (no really I mean it, they wont make it to age 5) |
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| I'm sending you a deposit for the pick bitch. You do take checks, right? |
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| I absolutly take checks Blitzen. I'll even ship the pup with a IOU if you can't send a check. You can pay me whenever you get around to it. This post will be our proof of reciept. |
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| Let take a look at some of the dog's (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/527359.html) in the "peacock"'s illustrious pedigree:
(1) CH Leiter's Excalibur--suffered ED (I believe, fragmented coronoid process).
(2) CH Nike Clayfield Andretti--died young (I believe, toxic gut syndrome--TGS). This was the dog responsible for activating AKC's DNA testing program. Seems that some litters allegedly sired by this dog were instead sired by one of his sons.
(3) Cobert's Sirocco Of Windigail--wore a pacemaker--died when it malfunctioned or fell out.
(4) CH Karagin's Crusader--died young of toxic gut syndrome.
(5) CH Covy Tucker Hill's Durango--died young. I owned the litter sister to his dam (Covy Tucker Hill's Turtle Dove) who produced both EPI and TGS.
Hey, I'm on a roll--I could go on all night.
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| What can you tell us on Dallas' ancestors? (We already know that Dallas died at the age of 9, and I think it was sudden and unexpected. I think Sunshine said he was herding sheep for his HIC the previous summer, and looked really good.)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/509439.html
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| Look, we still have problems--a few generations back.
(1) Eko-lan's Paladen was said to have had a "pancreas problem". His daughter (mine--Covy-Tucker Hill's Talisman) produced EPI and TGS.
(2) When I bred a granddaughter of Lakeside's Gilligan's Island to the Paladen son, Doppelt Tay's Hawkeye, I had EPI and TGS in the same litter.
(3) Langenau's Watson died very young--either bloat or, more likely, TGS. Watson was the sire of the Hawkeye litter from a Gilligan daughter (also had EPI)--this litter had EPI and TGS.
(4) CH Karagin's Crusader--died young of toxic gut syndrome.
(5) Impulse--I has a son of his, Dolmar's Legacy, with fragmented coronoid process and definite symptoms of EPI when I returned him to his breeder. Legacy produced EPI and FCP.
(6) Lakeside's Gilligan's Island died at the age of 3--reportedly from bloat. His younger brother Harrigan died young--everyone said bloat--owner said "renal failure". Harrigan's sister Halo was the dam of my Paladen daughter, Covy-Tucker Hill's Talisman (sister to Turtle Dove--dam of Durango, who was the sire of Crusader) who produced EPI and TGS.
(7) Zeto and Zeus of Fran-Jo (owned by Jimmy Moses)--my Zeus son, Covy's Pan of Tucker Hill (out of Covy's Felita of Tucker Hill--a Gilligan daughter) had OCD of the shoulder and produced TGS. A linebreeding on Pan produced EPI and TGS.
Isn't this brief statement damning enough?
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| Isn't this brief statement damning enough?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, I should take my pup out and shoot her already, just because Dallas is her grand-daddy?
Pedigrees never give this sort of info. That's why I'm asking.
What exactly is a fragmented coronoid process? And what is OCD of the shoulder? In human medicine (I'm a nurse) OCD stands for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, but I doubt that's the case here... :P |
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| "So, I should take my pup out and shoot her already, just because Dallas is her grand-daddy?"
***********************************************************************************************
No, pedigrees tell little. This is why I take some satisfaction in personally knowing six generations (on this side of the pond) of the same family of "German" GSD's. However, I imagine that there are some AKC folks that would like to shoot me!
Sunsilver, there are 3 kinds of elbow dysplasia: ununited anconeal process, fragmented coronoid process, and degenerative joint disease (essentially a form of OCD). Oh yeah, OCD is
"osteochondritis dessicans" (sometimes referred to in the literature as "osteochondrosis"). I suggest that you do some Google searches for ED (no, not "erectile dysfunction", in your human lingo), OCD, and perhaps visit the OFA website.
Just love your pup, train her, avoid vaccinations, and consider a raw diet. |
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| Yeah, like they did to Fred Lanting for telling them the truth...
Well, she's got the Ursus genes to balance out the ones from Dallas, and I think the Imp-Cen dogs carry some good genes, though I wish I had more info on the more recent generations. She eats like a horse, has nonstop ball drive, and pushes my 80 lb. male to the point where he has to let her know who's boss. She has her mom's gorgeous movement...there was a very good reason her mom was named "Wings of Grace"! We'll just have to see what the future holds for my GSD 'mutt'.
ED...erectile dysfunction...LOL! :-) |
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| Oh Louise- you know so much about American lines...my girl is linebred on Fanto vom Hirschel(sp?), but she is American bred through her dam's dam, who's sire, I believe, was Vonshore's Archie, whoi has Toppelt Jay's Hawkeye as his dam's sire,(I think, I'm easily confused). I have tryed for years but cannot find info on her greatgranddam's lines, someone recently filled in a picture of one of her ancesters, which just thrilled me, Sunsilver, you recently posted how hard it is to finish some of these these pedigrees, I can truely relate, you have no idea how excited I was to see that photo of Vonshore's Pyrite! I've been trying to complete hers for almost 4 years! I cannot find any more info on some of her ancestors, Such as Grauberger's Girl Gretchen, Woodside's Steeler (I think). Here's a link to her pedigree, I'd sure appreciate some more info if anyone has any! Thank you so much! http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/498274.html Thanks again! jackie harris |
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| Kalibeck, I believe the dog you're thinking of is Dopplet Tay's Hawkeye. He's in a lot of American pedigrees. Let me check the spelling and get back to you... |
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| http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403457.html
Okay, it's Doppelt-Tay's Hawkeye. I believe he's in Star's pedigree way back, too. Kind of like Lance, he pops up everywhere! |
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| Louise, I remember well when Gilligan's Island died, it left the GSD people around here shaken and in tears. He was so well loved not only for his conformation, but he had a really nice disposition and ring presence. Not a Manhattan, but close to it. I'll never forget the wife of my GSD judge "friend" (you know who - won't mention his name) called me sobbing and crying saying that dog had died from bloat. It was a terrible tragedy and that hit the Am lines breeders like the death of Yasko or Ursus would hit the GSD world.
Frankly when Dallas died I cried myself. He was such a nice representive of the breed with a wonderful temperament.He was a great embassador not only for the AKC style dog, but for GSD's in general. The public doesn't know the difference between imports and AKC lines, they only know it's a GSD and Dallas did the breed a lot of good in that respect. Very, very sad he died so young. I thought he was 10, maybe not. I know what it's like to lose a GSD at an early age so I sympathized with all these owners. I do have a nice story about an Am line dog - Uzi. He lived to be around 14 if I remember right. His owner cried for a month after she found him dead under his favorite tree in her back yard. He looked as is he was sleeping until she tried to wake him. She couldn't talk about it for months, don't we all know that feeling. Too bad they all can't have such a nice long life and pass away on their own.
It's all about health and longevity in my mind. My first GSD was sired by an import g-son of Dingo v Haus Gero. His dam was American lines. My dog only lived to be 7 1/2 and was sick with something most of his life. His sire died fairly young, but I never was quite sure why and I don't know about his dam. Blitz is 6 and so far, knock on wood, he has never seen a vet for being sick, a very nice change. He's 100% showlines.
Sunsilver, you have the best of the current Am lines I think. I'd be proud of her if she were mine; she looks very nice on the photos I've seen. |
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| Thanks, Blitzen! Still waiting on those #$%^&&#@!!! damn papers! But we can see the light at the end of the tunnel...AKC called the breeder last week to say the litter registration would soon be in the mail! (He says he's gonna frame it once he finally has it...lol!) If he doesn't put the individual papers in the mail to me the minute he gets his hands on them, I'm gonna personally drive down there and...well, nevermind...
One of the dogs in your ped is a German dog with no info on her sire/dam. That should be easy to find! Ledi von Kreuzbaum...you even have her SZ number! What's the best site for finding the German dogs' info? The one someone posted the other day sucks for anything over 10 years old.
I was stuck on my pup's pedigree with one of Dallas's ancestors. Then, someone from Ferrum GSD's filled in the blanks. There's a lot of info on the Ferrum site, or you could try e-mailing the person that runs it. Here's the link: http://www.ferrum.8m.com/selgsds/links.htm Hope this helps! |
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| Thanks for the link; the minute I have 2 consequetive minutes to sit down again I'll check it out...you're right about the name...told you, I'm easily confused, LOL, especially right now. And on a happy note, my girl's 1/2 American lines dam had her last litter at 9, and is still fit & feisty @ 11, in fact almost 12. jackie harris |
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| Finally getting those papers! Great, now you can make some plans for her future.
BTW I think most of the GSD breed books have tons of pedigrees so you might be able to complete a pedigree using them. There are also some German pedigrees in one or two of them. Louise might know which books I'm talking about - one of her dogs is on the cover. |
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| Cool, cool, cool! Now you know what kind of life I have, that finding this kind of stuff sends me into a total tizzy! What a great Christmas present! A LOT more of Kalie's pedigre is now linked! I need to find Calloway's Elizabeth Taylor now....I can't say thank you enough! jh |
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| Kalibeck, it was Jo-Ann of FerrumGSDs who posted the missing info on Doppelt-Tay's Hawkeye. I've just thanked her in the "Elbows and Nero Norbactal" thread. Maybe she can help you with finding Elizabeth Taylor? (Try California or the IMDB, maybe?) LOL!
Yeah, it's very satisfying to get the info linked up. When doing Star's ped., I'd sometimes have to enter 3 or 4 generations by hand before getting a link. It was a great feeling when it finally happened! :-)) |
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| Does anyone offer the GSD stud books on disks? The Malamute rescue does that and sells them as a fund raiser. If not, I think someone could make themselves a nice tidy amount of money doing it. It would ba a lot of hard work. You'd have to buy all the stud books, generate a program and enter all the information; it would probably take a lot of people to do it, but it is possible. With a click of my mouse I can bring up a pedigree for any Malamute that has ever been entered in the stud book and see the breeder, owner, DOB, color and the year of it's first litter. They have started to add dogs from show reports, OFA number, etc and now we are getting pictures too. I can generate a pedigree as far back as the stud book goes to the Byrd expedition simple by clicking on the pedigree. It's pretty neat. |
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| The GSDCA charges for pedigree information, even if it's only online, and will only give you (I think) 5 generations at a time. It's a real PITA trying to fill out your dog's pedigree.
Money-hungry SOB's... [grump!] |
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We had a client in our grooming shop come in with a 10 yr. old retired AM. show bitch that looked just aweful when she walked. It looked like her back was broken. :(
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You mean like this, Yvette?
This is from a current ad on the site that I spotted today. I think he's from a Hungarian kennel, but his dad's side goes back to German showlines (Ulk v. Arlett is the great-grandsire I think.) And I've certainly seen German showlines that were just as extreme.
Can someone PLEASE explain to me the justification for breeding a dog that looked like this? Yes, he's for sale, but there are other dogs on their site that are just as extreme! |
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| So this (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/414879.html) is a bitch who lived until the age of 10--with no linebreeding (up close in the pedigree, that is)--she still has a disasterous pedigree (of the "self-destruct" variety). |
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| Ugh...just found Lakeside's Gilligan's Island way back in my pup's pedigree, twice, through Portrait of Fabrena (one of the foundations bitches for the Shiloh Shepherd.) Hmm...another reason to dislike his sire, Lance, who seemed to carry a bucketload of bad genes, including the blue and liver colour! |
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| If you all have this info on these dogs, why don't you put it in the "Comments"? Instead of leaving things blank?
I would advise, that if you don't have good evidence and it's just rumor, to state so.
Rumor had it that Manhattan had "problems walking" and that's why he didn't show up all the time at shows. "Problems walking" translating to "dysplasia". |
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| Re: finding pedigrees....
Is everyone simply using Google (Advanced is better) to do so? Try the various dogs' names in there, or parts of their names (sometimes people spell things wrong and it's only on www once).
I've been trying to find my dogs' pedigrees back more and I did alot of this before having to capitulate and try buying old stud books that would have the info. |
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When researching American pedigrees a good place to start is http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/wbitches/index.html (also has links to males) and no the gSDCA does NOT charge money for the pedigrees on their website. They do sell " Red Books" that have limited 3 generation pedigrees and info on the dogs. The older ones were far more informative than the current ones. My favorite line from one of the very early ones was about Beau of Fran Jo - to wit -"Don't breed him to dull or deficient bitches" Well yah but what does that say a. about what you are breeding to and b. about the dog himself.
Jackie, here is the link to Woodside Steeler http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/wdogs/WoodlandSteeler.html includes a picture and a good description of him.
Rebel, why would you buy stud books as opposed to just using an old fashioned pay for it pedigree service since they already have all the stud books and often have more info than you can get ( color of dog etc)?
When using the web beware - many many of the pedigrees are incorrect - including ones on this site.
Other resources for American pedigrees include http://www.angelfire.com/wi/gsdpedigrees/amgsdpeds.html and http://www.webabout.com/gsd/grumpas/list.shtml .
Don't forget too that sometimes the OFA databases can fill in the blanks. Go to advance search click on GSD and use a smallpart of the name and click on any part of name for best results.
Finally, it's expensive but you can always order a certified pedigree from AKC. If you have the close up relatives , as long as you have the dog's name AND registration number you can order any dog's pedigree so you can start in the back if that's what you need. |
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