I thought it was high time we get back to discussing dogs, training and the more positive learning tools this site was set up for. This should be a drama free thread and I'd like to hear from the crew that has gone underground in hopes they will resurface and share some informative insight to what the benefits are in doing muzzle work? When is it appropriate to use this method of training, what purpose does it serve and your thoughts on it.
fIRST OF ALL , I REALLY HAVE TO BE CURIOUS AS TO WHY YOU ARE ASKING ABOUT THIS......i DONT REMEMBER IF YOU TRAIN IN SCHUTZHUND OR NOT......IN SCHUTZHUND THERE IS NOT MUZZLE WORK....
MUZZLE WORK IS TO PROVE THE DOG CAN , WITHOUT THE STIMILUS OF THE SLEEVE,, OR SOMETIMES , WHAT IS CALLED A HIDDEN SLEEVE....... GO AFTER THE SUBJECT OR THE PERSON OR PERSONS, OR WHAT EVER YOU ARE USING THE MUZZLE TO ACHIEVE THAT ACTION. ,,,,, SO THAT THE PERSON OR PERSONS IN THE PURSUIT ARE NOT HURT DURING TRAINING......
IF YOU HAVE A SCHUTZHUND CANDIDATE OR TRAINED DOG....IF YOU PUT A MUZZLE ON IT TO SEE IT IT WILL GO AFTER THE SUBJECT ,,IT WOULDBE JUST TO TRY THE ANIMALS DRIVE ACTION....NOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SPORT....
Dogs being trained in police work are using the muzzle for those cynerios of keeping the person on the other end of the chase from getting bitten,,while the dog is trained to react to a hit on a body by the accoster....or the cynerio of a police stop, and without any anger or yelling ...the police officer gets whopped in the kisser or the neck.......to train a dog to watch and be absolute on the mark ,, you muzzle the dogs in this kind of training.....
I muzzled my Biggest son of Konig to take to the vet everytime he went ....he didnt like any vet or the techs that worked there... but thats not training....
2nd ...you dont do muzzle training or use a muzzle , in any circumstance if you dont know what your doing and are an accomplished trainer.
SCHUTZHUND IS CONDUCTED WITH SLEEVES AND DOESNT USE MUZZLES FOR ANYTHING THAT I AM AWARE OF....
NO WHERE IN THE MANUALS I READ DOES IT HAVE MUZZLES OR ON THE TRIAL FIELD IS IT USED....
yellow- I don't do schutzhund with Agar and I train with an experienced fellow that is an officer as well as very accomplished in the sport. I have a pup I'm working with in hopes to be my sport dog and I also have a titled female that is a sport dog. Although I have not found it necessary to do muzzle work with my dog I was merely trying to open up a topic of discussion that was related to training and GSD's rather than discussing who's screwing who,Tim Helser drama and the various mudslinging matches that have chased all the good folks away. I don't believe I indicated anywhere in my thread that muzzle work is used in schutzhund....however I do know many who train not only police dogs but that do PSA, French Ring do train with muzzles so I was merely asking what the benefits were. That's all my question was....and thanks for answering it with your view point.
Muzzle work is one way too proof your dog. It also teaches your dog to fight with more than his mouth, it also can build up frustration in the dog and it can improve the bite. Also a dog that is allowed to kick the crap out of someone (role playing by agitater) comes away with a lot more attitude and confidence.
Most police officers have been in the training of the pd dog and where the muzzle is widely used.....I use to watch Kevin Henry from Hundesport do his training , on one part of his property, while his wife did the schutzhund on the other side....Many times , when finished we watched , and He used muzzle work a lot.....as he was training police dogs..and their handlers.....
Agar,
Good topic and good idea to bring it back to relevant issues on dogs.
There are those on here that will certainly have more current information on this subject then I but I will just say why we used to use a muzzle on a dog.
Xeus pretty much said it. We used to muzzle strickly to build a dogs confidence and use his body more to some degree in apprehending. The agitators ( helper and decoy were not terms that I was familiar with ) job was to allow the dog to chase him off initially as I recall. In steps leading to knocking him down, and terrifying him on the ground, keeping the dog on top, always winning, always being in control with his best weapon ( mouth ) bound. It seemed to me that these dogs progressed in confidence at this phase. It was also a good way to get your sides and stomach clawed terribley until I started wearing an elastic back brace.
fm2410, You have to have a dog that is willing and wants to pursue the agitator and has the drive to do it. This is all broken down in steps according to the dogs level of drive and confidence. The agitator must work hand in hand with the handler to keep the dog focused, encouraged and motivated. I remember a strong male Rott that was terrible ( in a good sense). He was the strongest dog I have ever seen and he could use his body very well.
I think muzzle work has advanced and is used in more ways today but hopefully some with lots of knowledge will respond to this thread. I am not saying this is the best or only way to use a muzzle, it was just my experience.
Xeus- thank you for the response. this was my understanding as well but I wondered what some others who have done muzzle work on their dogs or have seen it done CORRECTLY felt about the situation. I've seen many good trainers use the muzzle very effectively so I asked my trainer about it just this evening as a matter of fact but we did not get into a deep discussion since he told me he did not feel the need for it with my particular dog since his bite doesn't need improved and he gets him PO'd enough that his frustration builds without a muzzle. lol Agar is being trained for personal protection and is making a nice transition from schutzhund. There's things we probably will never do in his training such as muzzle work but I still like to ask questions to understand why some people use certain methods and what purpose they serve. So I appreciate you giving an intelligent response as it has been one of the very few I've seen in the past several days in between all the PDB drama. I'd like to get back to actually learning about the dogs.
Zues's dog just earned his Schutz 1 last week.....He decided to have a Schutzhund police dog.... He put the pd before the schutz , I believe....he can explain.... I just wanted to acknowledge his new accomplishment with a super gsd.....he is one good representative of an all a round tough gsd.....
I saw a change in Barbie's confidence level and focus when we did muzzle training with her. We still use it in different training scenarios when we want to eliminate equipment. Our PD training group (we do our monthly training with Benton County (WA) sheriff's office ) is debating about whether or not to start one of the young dogs in muzzle work before the sleeve.
southtexan- Indeed that was a very good article. Answered just about all my questions. Probably the only benefit I can see in ever introducing my dog to the muzzle would be to teach him to target other parts of the body like back, chest...but that can be accomplished with a bite suit I'd imagine.... in any event thank you for the article and also to olskoolgsd-good to hear from you and glad to see you came out of cognito.
Xeus- Congrats to you. Sounds like you have some bragging rights....please do share with us your accomplishment. So nice to have a positive topic. Funny how all of a sudden the quality of posters have finally resurected themselves. What a breath of fresh air.
Yes Agar, it is needed....Since I worked with two police depts in their dog programs, years ago...I have watched and been a part of the muzzle training....it is interesting....and yes , it is designed to teach the dog to be in control ,,to gain or have confidence in itself,,,
The muzzle must be introduced and the dog learn that it is just a muzzle...You can put the muzzle on and take a bike ride , with him following along,,,,take him for walks with the muzzle on....its called socializing the muzzle to the dog...because the last thing you want is to associated agression from the dog everytime you put the muzzle on....
A lot of training schools, believe to train the muzzle work before the sleeve work....it kind of makes it easier...after the dog has its confidence and has learned , from\ the agitator , that he is the one warding off the agitator,,,and he has been given the opportunity to work , with intense attention on the agitator,or the suspect,,,in case of apprehension....he learns tthat the bark brings him immediate retreat,, and everytime he barks the agitator retreats and then re approached until the dog sees that contact is needed and he never takes his eyes off the agitator....a good agitator and an instructed handler are the key.....the dog quickly learns he is the reason the agitator retreats.....after work on a 6 ft leash , for weeks ,,,and the handler is instructed to never pull back on leash , so the dog keeps full concentration on the afitator,,,the agitator moves in for th dog to use body contact....Agitator keeps his hands away from muzzle, never using them exept to beat his chest to show dog to encourage high hits,
The dog is learning that he doesnt need a bite...the dog uses his barking and his posturing to ward off the suspect....he learns that he is not looking for an arm with a sleeve...(sleeve Happiness) and that that big body ,or any equipment
Olskool (as ususal) gave a good description of the hows, whys and benifits of muzzle work.
One thing that is often missed when discussing muzzle work is social dominance. I think this is the most important aspect of muzzle work. When done with certain techniuques, muzzle work hightens the social dominance of a dog. This taps into their instictual compultion to be the "top dog" and heps with their psycological willingness to win the fight.
When you see it done (and I don't see it much anymore) it is a beautiful thing to watch.
So in other words if you have a dog that is fully confident and he is not equipment (sleeve happy) oriented then the muzzle would really serve no purpose to train with right??
At least that's what I gathered from the article and the above posts....
No Agar. Muzzle work is benificial even with this type of dog, but if you do too much of it, or in a wrong way, it will definatley cause problems.
I never take the mindset of a dog "doesn't need" any type of training. It depends on the individual dog and the goals of the handler. I think all dogs (even Sch dogs) can benifit from muzzle work. It just has to be done correctly and with a specific goal in mind. The best trainers balance a dog in all drives and instinctual compultions. Some are just not comfortable in things they don't have knowlege or experience in. i.e. table work
i have worked many many dogs in muzzles and quite frankly if my dog won't do muzzle work I would feel something is lacking. It is a good barometer to see what your dog is made of . As one poster said, it sorta of proofs the dog. It shows how a dog will respond to a situation with his most powerful weapon nuetralized. I am a firm firm believer in the use of muzzles and I have never known this training to adversely affect a GOOD dog whether it is doing Sch or police or Personal protection. A good dog will enjoy the activity.
Gard- what are some of the bad outcomes that can ocur with doing too much muzzle work? My trainer is a former k9 handler who's also done schutzhund so he has extensive knowledge on muzzle work. I would be comfortable with him working my dog in a muzzle if like you said he had a specific purpose for doing so. At this point when I questioned if that was something we'd get into he said "we could", but there's other things that we're gonna work on that I feel are more beneficial in serving your purpose with the dog. Here's part of the problem....the dog is more advanced than his handler. lol That's the honest to goodness truth and I say that without any shame it in. The dog is just truly amazing. Each week I see him progressing to a higher level and he makes me very proud.
Gustav- Good to hear from you. I value your opinnion and knowledge you have to offer of your many years of experience. Then I should not be afraid to try some muzzle work with Agar....I think I'll have to discuss this a little deeper with my trainer next week and see if he'd be willing to add this into our sessions. Although when I mentioned to him I wanted him to teach Agar to bite the crotch of the bite suit he said that's where he has to draw the line with me. lol Guess I was pushing my luck a bit huh?
1) It can raise a dogs level of social dominance to a point it can cause a problem for a handler; esp a weak handler. This would depend on the dog, handler, how the muzzle work is done, and how much of it is done.
2) the dog can "center out" meaning the dog will start to target the center mass of the decoy. Not a bad thing for a PP or Police Service dog but can be bad for sport work
3) The dog can begin to "stay on the ground" during it's entry. You can lose the nice beautiful flying entry. Again, not a bad thing for PP or Police Service but judges like to see the nice flying entry from a dog that leaves the ground 5 feet in front of the decoy.
there are pro's and cons to every technuique. Problems that come from muzzle work are usually because someone does too much of it.
or clothing or arms , he doesnt need to be afraid of ,,,as he immediately wins when the agitator retreats and leaves the scene....the dog uses the muzzle to tag the intruder and he leaves the scene....the bite is considered a means to an end, not an end in itself,.. The bite is a tool use to satisy a need i.g., acquire food, drive off intruders, resolve conflict.
If the same goals can be accomplished without the biter, the dog will be just as satisfied.. the key then is to show the dog that this can be done, not only by wearing the muzzle, but by using it. . you are teaching the dog to take control of the situation and dominate....In fact , the bite should not be a reward for the dog, because if that were true, the "OUT" would be like taking his food away.. As the dog learns to tag the intruder, the agitator falls away from the dog , head over heels and the dog learns with his confidence each time , getting stronger and stronger, that he has done this,,,,his intruder retreats and it makes the dog ready for a more powerful hit the next time and builds the confidence when he sees he has left the scene completely,,,but the dog should never be praised, or pulled in until the cynerio isover.....reaproach the dog, after he is still watching his for his intruder.....he will then be let approach the intruder to ward him off....many weeks of this lead to the longer line being used....
Never use hands to make the dog focus on them as targets, just slap chest and try to brace so the hit wont hurt dog with muzzle.....some agitators get on the ground , at the level with the dog ,,,to initiate the dog has the xontrol and let it dominate and win..... Learn the signals of submission and be ready to let the dog win....the agitator is tasked with "drawing the dog out" to the point where the muzzle makes contact with the agitator, no matter how slightly.. the agitator then has to react with his body and voice , in an exagerated fashion, pretending to have a very tender body, and then falling away , "in excruciating pain" . The dog is impressed with himself and gains a little bit of confidence ( with the praise of his handler) at that time....other times , you keep quiet while he keeps full attention on the intruder that ran away....this is just a part of what gets done over and over....
ANd then the pursuit of the intruder starts , using the 6 ft lead which he drags behind him , handler at a safe distance behind , in order to get the end of leash in hand ,,,not pulling but holding steady while the dog tags the intruder and after the intruder rolls away from the dog and then you walk your hands up the leash to give the praise...with his eyes never leaving the intruder.... when the dog learn the out then you can start the hit from the front as all of the first encounters are from behind.....
after many m ore sessions and lots of control on the leash,,,the obedience down pat and outs learned the off leash begins with the muzzle ....for the dog has learned he controls the person while wearing the muzzle. and he is then put thru many cynerios of out and down and stay and then is ready for later...the work with out the muzzle....nowing the rules....the dog must be drilled in the rules ..... later the bite work comes....The bitework training is so much easier if the dog is already solid in his control work... the dog can still be tested for his bite work seperate from the muzzle work, but the extensive bite work is complicated by the absence of the proper release(out") component,
It is believed by many , that ,muzzle training a dog, naturally improves the dogs preformance in off -muzzle work.
Many hours of obedience in the out with the muzzle teaches the control the dog will use when you start the bitework....today many are using the muzzle work , as taught by the police trainers, to get that control in tact , before starting bite work....with the sleeve...
Now , a Schutzhund club trainer may object to this....I dont know....everyone will be different...there are as many ways to train a dog as there are different breeds of dogs....
Having been a part of two pd dept s programs ,,I was in the middle of both kinds of training...as the trainer did both....
Gard- After reading your 1. it would probably be fair to say that the trainers hesitation to do muzzle work at this point with the dog is not so much because he feels it may be a not so good idea for the dog but perhaps because he feels we as handlers have not graduated to that level yet and are perhaps still weak. I should clarify and say that my husband is the one who handles Agar now; it was hard for me to except that he was a bit much for me as a beginner to start out with but I had to face facts. One of the things he showed concern with is that he knows the dog well and his ability; he told me very early on that the dog can easily be taken to a much much higher level through his training that may not be good for me from a liability standpoint. I have little kids, a busy house and not enough experience in handling a dog of such caliber. So we must take "baby steps" as he puts it. lol There's certain levels he tells me that when you take a dog to that point there is no turning back into "play", "sport" and this is not something to have fun with. But I have watched a lot of PSA videos and I really like the style of training these dogs have so I wouldn't mind incorporating some of that into my dog. Since Agar is not doing sport I'm not concerned with scoring points. I have 2 other dogs to play around with and do schutzhund. Thanks again for you input.
It sounds like your trainer is waiting for you too catch up to your dog :} The thing is this if you plan on having a true PPD you need to do muzzle. This is why many dogs only fight people when they are standing up, I have scene dogs not bite becuase the person was lying down. The dog needs to have the confidence to truly take on a bad guy, especially he must learn how to defeat the bad guy w/out his mouth.
Also the question about using a muzzle on a young dog before he learns bitework. I would not!!!! It is hard enough to raise a pup to bite not only but it is harder to get him to bite correctly. Take your time and build the dog slowly and properly for the best bite possible. Muzzlework is like the final steps in training not the foundation of training.
I am very proud of my Xeus he got a 97 in protection, pronounced in courage and fight drive. The judge said some very nice things about him.
Xeus- yes we must "catch up" to the dog. lol Sounds silly to those that don't understand dogs. Agar is 4 yrs old and I had him imported with his title already from Eurosport K9. They sent me an incredible dog. I trust the dog wholeheartedly; he is very stable, confident and definately knows the difference between a threat and non threat; but I do have that slight apprehension in the back of my mind that if taken too far over the edge to a true PPD I'm opening up another can of worms since I must consider the fact I have young children who on one hand are being conditioned that Agar is not the "pet" and we've had to set certain ground house rules to keep our friends and welcomed visitors safe, I still have to keep in mind these are children I'm conditioning and they can and may "forget" to tell their friends to wait to be invited in after them. Last thing I want is an innocent person to get bit and it not really be the dogs fault. That was another reason we put up the kennels outside so when we have the kids in and out during the summer months with their friends I don't worry that the dogs gonna charge the front door every 30 seconds. Still being new I still have reservations because I see what trained dogs- good dogs are capable of. My trainer is a "safety first" type of guy so he's really drilled it into me to the point I make myself paranoid at times. lol But I do like to see the videos with dogs doing muzzle work and the bad guys on the ground with the dog right up in his face...pretty intense stuff.
I did no think someone would be on this late. I have male GSD that is a PPD and she sleeps in bed with my 4 yr old, and then we have Xeus who is 4 and he is a PPD. I also do sch with him. I fully understand the apprehension especially with kids. Tel me about your male i purchased two males in the past from eurosport.....email me xeusteu@sbcglobal.net
Agar, Your dog is what it is. By that I mean you are not going to transform this dog into something that you haven't seen unless the dog does not have ANY foundation and things are coming out for the first time. Your dog has had foundation training in bitework. He will not become schziphrenic(sp) because of training that is done reasonably. A civil dog is a civil dog, a sport dog is a sport dog, you can increase some components slightly, but they are what they are. Hope that makes sense!
Xeus, Good post about standing up. Little story....In 1975 i had this nice male shep that I had raised and done a lot of training with. Sch was in its infancy , (NASA), and we did a lot of sleeve work and and work with leather wraps under coat. When he was four, I imported a male puppy from Germany and didn't want to have two males as I was still young and nomadic(smile), so I decided to let this 4 year old male go. Now this dog had been in obedience voice and hand signals, sleeve and undersleeve, tracking,etc. So I advertised him and got a response from a firm in Atlanta. They supplied dogs to Howard Hughes as he was living in his island off the Bahamas. So, I took the dog to Atlanta and this English gentleman who ran Hughes dog operations was there to evaluate the dog. He took the dog through all the paces including pursuit with gunfire and the dog passed with flying colors as we had trained with gunfire all the time. When he finished he told me we will take the dog,(1000 dollars which was big money in those days-smile). Then he said young man let me show you something. He then asked me did I think I could put the dog on him. I said yes you saw him work without the sleeve. He said alright, then walked about 60 feet away from me and said I want you to send your dog. I looked at him and he said YES send your dog. He then proceeded to SIT down on the ground. I sent the dog and as he came tearing down the way the guy started going "hear boy, hear boy, hear boy,etc. Baron got all the way up to him and stopped and looked at him and looked back at me. I was amazed! He then told me I had a nice dog but you must always do work with the dog with the man on the ground and being disarming in appearance to have true PP dog. He said many dogs will not bite a non threatening object without training for it. I never forgot that and Xeus your post about a dog working a man on the ground brought it to my attention. ps Most sch dogs would not pass this test...trust me!!
Agar at the age of 4 yrs he should be trained with more control especially if you are his handler. Like I put in the email start to control him by having him sit next too you. Do not let him go to the end of the leash anymore. How many bad guys do you see that jump up and down taunt you with a stick and let you send the dog. Start by having him sit next to you and he only gets a bite when you give him the command to waatch him and the puckn or whatever command you chose. Agar is old enough for this no more wild and crazy bitework..........
Agar,
I just pulled this thread up and was suprised at how much feedback there was for you. I have not read most of it, just scanned, so may repeat someone.
I just wanted to point out a few Principles that to me are foundational to all training. First though I wanted to say I am impressed with your humility and willingness to learn. This is the key to getting good with dogs. Always remain humble ( teachable)
The foundational principles to me are staying away from systems, formulas, and unflexable methods. Spend lots and lots of time with your dog in all enviorments. Learn to read him like the back of your hand. Learn from him. Learn to read his eyes, they will speak volumes to you. They will convey uncertainty, confidence, happyness, depression, boldness, fear, submission, confusion, dominence, agitation, anger, and everything that he is experiencing at any given moment. Learn when and how he bluffs, ( this one is often miss read ) Learn what triggers these responses. If you do not learn to thoroughly read him, all the methods in the world will be useless. His body language also needs to be understood but I believe it is more simple to read his body. When I say stay away from formulas please use some comon sense with that. Obviously there are proven formulas that work in most situations, but I am referring to more of what you are talking about and problem solving or doing anything beyond routine training. Each dog must be evaluated for what motivates him and his abilities, not dogs in general. JMO
When working with your dog, only look at the recomendations of a trainer or a book as just that, a recomendation. Each dog needs to be worked with his temperment, strong points and weak points etc. in mind. IMO it all gets down to Feel. Read him and learn to Feel what needs to happen next. When you learn to read him you will instinctively know or at least figure out what needs to happen next.
It is a huge pet peeve of mine when a topic comes up that a dog is having a problem with and 20 people will respond with a formula. I have been guilty of this, but I try not to fall into that. There is little that you cannot accomplish with your dog ( up to his genetic make up) if you learn to read him, know him, and reason things out with his best interest at heart. Once you learn these BASIC principles the sky is the limit. I do not believe we truley know the full potential of our dogs as we limit them because of our own limits in understanding them. Good luck. P.S. I said ( up to his genetic make up) Throw that one out too. Do not consider what his genetic makeup will allow, this will only limit you by YOUR own understanding or misunderstanding of his abilities.
GARD and Gustov, good to see you post. I would love to hear more on the social dominance in regards to muzzling. That topic wets my appetite.
I have posted this before. This is the perfect example of training social dominance using the muzzle. Everyone has seen where people put a muzzle on a dog, send the dog on a decoy who is on the ground, then it is Yea Haw; ride em cowboy. There is some uselfullness in this by teaching the dog to use their body.
This video is more than just that. This is real training. I have only seen this done twice in real life. It is a lost art that very few know how to do and/or utilize. I love this shit.
Look at the "ground muzzle" video. What do you think?
Olskool I would love it if you would kind of explain what is being done here. Go over the body language of the dog and the actions of the decoy. I think you are the best man for the job as this is more reflective of the "olskool" :) training you are familiar with.
GARD,
Though I appreciate your vote of confidence in me I am sure there are many who have a better working knowledge then me in this regard.
IMO good video, though it confused me at first as to the lack of comunication between handler and dog and the lack of activity of the agitator until it becomes apparent that this slowed down process is just that, the agitator is just encouraging the dog to be be dominant in a passive manner. It appeared at one point that the agitator may have lightly flanked the dog ( couldn't see his hand) as the dog did return to him. He appeared to be losing interrest and was losing focus just prior to light flanking if that is what it was. ( wish I could watch the video while writing).
I loved the part where the agitator began to dominate in a non threatening manner, yet still dominating, winning the dogs confidence in him. ( which is something that needs to be broken ) The dog was content to have the man on top, setting up to flank him good enough to bring out an aggresive response. The dog learned a valuable leason here IMO. It taught him that he, not the man needed to stay dominant, that he not the man was in charge, that he not the man would win ( even while his only percieved weapon was taken from him ) any altercation. It appeares to me that the dogs sharpness is increased , his mistrust is increased and the handler now enters the picture to praise him for taking his role back.
The agitator holding the lead I assume increases the dogs realization that no one outside of the handler is to be trusted. It is critical that the agitator knows how hard to flank each dog to arouse aggression only.
This is the first I have seen of this type of muzzle work, but for PP and L.E. it looks great. I would guess that more work in very similar scenerios would be used in which the dog was not flanked every time so it would not be a knee jerk reaction for him to bite. I want to hear your evaluation, Gustovs or others with experience. Great subject
olskool- Thank you for the compliments;I try to stay humble and open my ears to those that are much wiser and have become more successful. Guess it is the reason I have been successful in my business as it is not much different than dealing with dog folks; MUST have extra thick skin (male dominated industry) :- and I learned early on that it's ok to not have all the answers or experience- it's NOT ok however to not take the initiative to learn how to get all the right answers. lol I always chose the most successful intelligent people in my industry to make my good friends. I built myself on their knowledge and success with much respect and admiration with the road they too once traveled when they themselves did not know so much. lol Never was envious or jelous; just became more driven to get to where they were in life but faster. I ask a lot of questions and quite frankly don't care if others think they are stupid, pointless, or I want to know too much...because I am that driven as an individual to gain knowledge with the things that spark me. I want to know how things get put together, why things work the way they do and what methods can gain the same results but in an easier fashion such as the tip that Xeus gave me to help me handle Agar easier. My trainer says it can be frustrating at times training because he loves my dog and knows he's ready to advance and do bigger and better things but that we are not at that level yet. lol The part that keeps him focussed on being patient is my determination to keep trying regardless of how long it takes. He kicks my ass a lot sometimes...lol so I feel like I get it from all ends- husband, trainer and even the damn dog BUT they can't break me down. lol I keep coming back for more. I must love the abuse or something. lol If I start to complain about it being "chilly", or that I forgot my gloves...he tells me stop whinning like a girl! lol Then I have to remind him I AM a GIRL! lol But getting back to the thread...I'd like it very much too if you could explain what was happening in the video GARD posted as I have watched it on Nates site before and have much respect for their training practices but never had anyone explain to me what was being shown with the dogs body language and the decoys actions. And Gard is right; not many folks know how to train that way as I have never seen it done until I saw it one Nate's site.
GARD,
Why was the dog not brought into the excersize a tad hotter? I realize that it was more about social dominance initially but the agitator was using his hands to encourage the dog to understand that he ( the agitator ) was intimidated by him ,however the dog did not respond to these efforts. It would have been interresting to have been there and talk to the trainers and hear what they had to say.
The thing people have too learn and of course this is only my opinion. In PPD or police work you dont want to always jaz the dog up for everything. You want the dog to figure some things out with as little help as possible. The video looks like they were trying to teach the dog how to be dominant with his body, not just his mouth. when the agitator started to show his dominance by going on top of the dog and the dog allowed it the helper flanked him to piss the dog off and to let him know what to do. The difference between a PPD, Patrol dog from sport dog is the dog must be able to work when their is no prey drive or a lot of stimulation. I have seen plenty of suspects stand their and talk too you nice and out of know where the attack you.
Xeus- yes I agree. In fact it appears you have the same thoughts on this subject as my trainer does. I'd imagine in comes from being in law enforcement. It's gotten to the point now with Agar that we don't need to jaz em up at all...the minute he sees the decoy even if he's just standing around talking to someone without any equipment visible to the dog Agar is TOTALLY fixated on his every move. He has never been a very vocal dog unless the threat is clearly right there and approaching in a suspicious nature but his eyes are always on the decoy. So in hearing you describe the difference in working a PPD or police dog from a sport dog it appears that the guy I train with incorporates more techniques that he trained his patrol dogs with.
Xeus,
I think you hit the nail on the head.
I think I tried to read too much into it, such as the leash thing and the agitator. The agitator did not have Control of the dog and there was no significants in it other then keeping the dog there.
My only point on the dog being a bit hotter was that the agitator was using his hands to bait the dog and the dog was not responding ( at least from the video it didnt appear that way) and so there was some confusion for me as to what the objectives were at least initially. Your evaluation makes sense of this as you put it " you want the dog to figure some things out with as little help as possible ". This explains the hand gestures. Not over done, the dog did not react but that was as you say the least possible stimulas, nothing lost. Thanks
Muzzle (Maulkorb) training can be viewed in numerous way, depending on the purpose of the dog. As already stated, sports such as SchH would not typically benefit from muzzlework. Personally, I feel muzzlework is useless for a dog destined for SchH. Just my opinion.
However, in Germany, (naturally - where else?) this type of training is very important outside of sport.
Maulkorb inhibits the dog's sense of smell somewhat. He can't pick up the odor of anything used for bitework: sleeves, bodysuit, whatever. (Try tracking a dog in a standard German Ebinger Maulkorb. I think you'll notice his sense of smell truly is inhibited.)
Maulkorb allows a dog to learn serious physical combat. This is lacking completely in sports. Though he can't bite, he can pound you to pieces, and this improves with experience. He learns to fight a human in an upright position, running, or down on the ground. He learns too, that his frustration of not biting will be relieved soon - he will get bites during training sessions.
I was very fortunate to go to Landespolizeischule fur Diensthundfuhrer, and learned plenty about Maulkorb. Two broken ribs and a cracked collarbone's worth anyway. :) I learned quickly to do Maulkorb with a very heavy German Army jacket on - it keeps you out of the Krankenhaus (hospital).
All German police dogs as well as SEK dogs are required to do muzzlework. German police dogs (Polizeihunde) are fairly typical. They start off on sleeves with some Maulkorb mixed in. The ratio varies, but interestingly, I never saw a police dog do bitesuit work. It was always either sleeve or Maulkorb. Possibly this has changed, but I don't think so.
The SEK dogs are entirely different. They have a minimal background with sleeves, but they aren't "police" dogs in any sense of the typical definition. They are part of the national government, and are not used for "patrol" work. Their training consists of virtually no obedience, no tracking, nothing except bite. They are specifically taught not to "out" under any circumstances - in fact, I don't think SEK dogs ever heard the word "aus". They must be pried off the subject with a special tool. The tool is, basically, a meathook with a wooden ball where the point would be. It's forced in the dog's mouth, turned slightly, the dog gags a little, and he's pulled away.
SEK dogs normally work with two handlers, within the Spezial Einsatz Kommando group. Their function is not at a city level (ala Polizeihunde) but a national level, for example riot control, airport, kidnapping, terrorists, etc. SEK dogs are always deployed covertly. Their "obedience" consists of down, crawl, do not make a sound, go around or through anything in the way - including fire, and control the subject. They're also taught to "pinpoint" a specific individual. I've worked the "pinpoint" exercise dozens of times and have been the "subject" a few times. This ongoing training is done with Maulkorb. They do not bark, under any circumstances - a bark would reveal the position of the team, making "covert" useless. They know nothing of heeling, sits, recalls, or any type of obedience. Their purpose is limited to very serious crimes which are not applicable to normal Polizeihunde.
Steve- Very interesting piece you offered on the muzzle work. Good post and thank you for contributing to the thread.
On a side note, I wanted to say that out of the past year or so I've been coming to this site I think this is the first thread that I really looked forward to seeing the responses and I never realized how knowledgable some of the "lurkers" actually were on this board. You all have so much good information to offer, I'm just curious as to why you all do not participate as much as you should? I hope that you'd consider starting other threads similiar to this one in hopes that the board can bring back a different quality of members and get back to what it was designed for. Thank you all for some interesting insight as you taught me something new. Weather I ever use it or try it first hand isn't as important to me as understanding how and why it's done.
From what I understand about this video, the dog was very young (15-16 months) and had not been in a muzzle before. I think this is why the decoy was being very passive. The dog is stressed by the muzzle and fighting it. The decoy does just enough to keep the dog in it and not become fixated on fighting the muzzle.
You can see the dog start to dominate by laying on the decoy. Then the decoy reverses roles. The dog being young, allows him to do this until he is flanked and then he brigns the fight and dominates the decoy. I like the fact that once he was pissed off, he really brought the fight.
So to me it is excellent decoy work by stressing the dog while still allowing him to win. He let the dog dominate, then dominated the dog, then pissed the dog off, let the dog win by dominating the decoy. Too me this is all about social dominance. Great work in my opinion. Like I said, I have only seen this done twice in real life. Not many people do this type of work.
It´s hard to say good or bad of that video, it´seems like a rather good natured dog that he tries to get some kind of reaction from, but he only can get it to react when hanging over the dog and pinch it. You usually learn the dog to be OK with wearing a muzzle, before the actual training starts., so he isn´t so bothered by the muzzle.
Anyway, a lot of muzzlework is done in the Swedish protectionprogramm for civilian dogs, the police also has one or two muzzleexercises in their certificationprogramm for policedogs.
This has probably been mentioned but if you plan on having a PPD or Police dog he must be tested with no excuses. The courage and fight drive must be their, a dog with no fight drive is not a PPD he is a sport dog. A dog must like to bring the fight, he must like to get physical because that is what brings the attitude to win no matter the threat or paine. The dog can be as gentle as a lamb with the family and kids but when it is time to work he must have it. Too many people in this country buy these 10,000-50,000 dollar dogs that if the time really came they would not get the job done. Muzzlework shows the heart and desire in a dog it is like a gut check for him.
Xeus I think you were very good at explaining the differences in a PPD between an sport dog in very simple terms that even the greenest handler would understand. It doesn't necessarily mean one dog is better than the other just depends on what purpose you intend to use the dog for as to determine weather the dogs courage and fight drive is a factor.
I do understand that PP dogs can do sport as well but you need a well balanced diversed dog to successfully do both. I was also told that most people will train a dog to do PP work first as it is easier to transition the dog to do sport rather than take a sport dog and transition to PP. It can be done both ways, I'm just told you save yourself some time doing it the first way I described.
Great thread Agar, I did some muzzle work with Andy today. I probably wouldn't go there with a future dog but since I was almost certain he's had this training as a PDK9 I fugured we'd have some fun with it. I'd like to know how you guys think he did.
Thanks Melanie. Nice video by the way. I think Andy did very well. The decoy had me crackin up with his acting skills. lol Sometimes I have a hard time keeping a straight face when we're training cause our trainer acts like he's trying to win the academy award. Andy looked like he was having a good time; no doubt this was something he had done before.
Great thread Agar, I did some muzzle work with Andy today. I probably wouldn't go there with a future dog but since I was almost certain he's had this training as a PDK9 I fugured we'd have some fun with it. I'd like to know how you guys think he did.
Hi - very good video. No question in my mind this dog has done Maulkorb.
Some observations: he gets stronger as the video progresses. Stronger and stronger. (Makes me wish I was still doing this!) Early on, the hits and intensity are fairly weak - I believe that's only a result of not being worked in Maulkorb for awhile. A long rest = "I have to remember this".
I only saw ONE thing which I could find any fault with at all. Please take my sincere compliments, and please don't misunderstand this following.
If I would have been your helper on that specific day, I would have done two critical things. First, I would have raised the dog's aggression, I would certainly have flanked him, and caused fight to come up higher - I can see it's in there. Far more important, I would have asked you (long beforehand) to drag the dog away from me - by doing so, we would have sacrificed control momentarily (ie; FUSS! the dog leaves the adversary and obeys), but the sacrifice would have added strength to the dog's fight. If you were up for it, we would have done more Maulkorb - 5 or 6 times in that one day. At the day's end, what I perceive as "handler consciousness" (ie; non-alert to the helper after fight) would have disappeared completely. The dog never would have taken his eyes off the helper - even when you called him to you.
In all - very good. This dog certainly works...... I don't "think" - I know what I saw.
Thanks for the input Steve, I really appreciate your observations and will keep your suggestions in mind if we do it again.
Yes you are right, he hasn't done muzzle work in at least 3 years, maybe more.
Like I said this is just for fun so I will not include any flanking, but I understand your reasoning and if we were doing it with a specific goal in mind (related to serious or "real" work) I would certainly take your advice.
I will drag him away next time and perhaps do more with it and see how he does. This time I was just glad to see him work like that (on another level) and see that he's done it before as I had suspected.
I appreciated the dog for the most part.
I thought the agitator needs some help. Far more yelling then working the dog to his max. Shorter excersizes, more intense with the dog being left hot. The agitators acting left something to be desired. Good agitation is as much Psychological as physical. The mind set has to be there to bring the fight out of the dog. It is hard to explain but when you are working a dog like this you need to have the mindset of a bad guy, this is something that needs to be brought into the fight.
How many times has this dog done muzzle work ? He looked and sounded confident, but dropped off at the end and that was not his fault. For this type of agitation sessions should be short and intense, again IMO.
The original video with the agitator on his back reminded me of what I used to do with puppies. One at a time when I played with them I laid on my back forcing them to be on top if they wanted to play. For submissive pups especially this forces them to take a dominant role. They were always cast as the aggressor and on top whether I was on my back or stomach. I believe it helped them in confidence. This may be comon practice today, I don't know.
Can someone explain what flanking is? I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic I really would like to know since I want to learn more about muzzle work.
Wish I had more to offer to this thread but mostly wanted to say thanks for all the information. You all have no idea how much this thread has helped in my search for a PPD. Been wanting to know more about muzzlework for months but the only trainer I know in this area couldn't (or didn't want to) answer any of my questions.
Agar,
Flanking is taking your hand and cupping it over his flank, the area just in front of his upper thigh, behind the ribs. You then bring your four fingers up into your hand in a pinching type motion but using your whole hand as opposed to just fingers. You squeeze ( or grasp the flank) between fingers and your hand to cause pain to the animal. Dogs are sensitive in this area and it does not require a great deal of pressure. Just enough to piss him off. Hope this made sense.
GSDfan,
When I posted I was rude in regards to your agitator. My opologies.
It is also possible that he hasn't done muzzle work since before he was purchased by the police, it was a very small dept that may not have utilized a variety of training techniques.
I appreciate the apology olskoolsgsd, I always feel bad when people start critiquing the helper. I understand experienced people's urge to make a call when they see it but I'd rather a PM if anyone has any comments about the Decoy.
Luckily this guy is not a GSD person so he probably won't see it.
People don't know what they're getting into when they decoy/ help for me...I like sharing, you tube is going to start charging me for bandwith, lol. So be nice so helper's don't start refusing let me tape.
Agar, GSDfan and anyone interrested,
Do a google search German police dogs and S.E.K. dogs. When your choices come up go to YouTube-CQB k-9 Ivan German Shepherd.
The first dog on hear doing muzzle work is not impressive, but if you go to the other related videos on the right go to
" Blek from Lev Praee. Isreal " after viewing this go to the Blek family video.
IMO this is a good dog. Obviously worked alot in muzzle but also obviously a good dog. Always dominant and serious.
The next family video is same dog with kids and mom.
This dog looks to me to be E.German with the head and bone, but who knows. He is though, a very nice dog. He is not what Steve described as a S.E.K dog, but then he probably would not have been around family either.
I love this subject! GSDfan, your clarification clarified - I didn't completely understand background, time, etc. I'd add a thought: you were doing this for fun ....... but fighting isn't fun. Sleeves and pull toys are fun - Maulkorb is very serious.
Above - flanking was mentioned. Consider serious dogs .... a real criminal is likely to put massive amounts of physical pressure on a dog, hitting, kicking, choking, anything to try to get the dog off him. For this reason, Maulkorb is an excellent way to desensitize the dog to pain and pressure. GRADUALLY, of course. Please don't think "cruelty" - think reality. Many of the Polizeihunde that I worked in Germany were thrown off me on their backs, legs kicked out from under them knocking them off their feet, ears, flanks, tails, anything yanked (pretty damn hard, too!), literally picked up by their tails and scruff and tossed away - yet done very carefully, for the purpose of simulating what a real fight might be for the dog. The SEK dogs were far worse. (Somehow, my original message lost several paragraphs.)
It's doubtful that anyone will see an SEK dog. This part of the German government is highly restricted. I was allowed to attend Polizeihund school, freely allowed to videotape standard police dogs, and a few minutes later, my camcorder was gently put back in its bag, when the SEK dogs came out. I do have some videos, but the team leader chose to give me copies of very generic techniques - almost the same stuff you'd see with an average German Polizeihund. I watched many training and actual deployment videos, but was refused copies.
CQBK9 - owned by Alex - is very forward thinking. Alex and I have spoken numerous times, he's fairly conversant in European Special Forces dogs (not that I'M an expert), and we've shared a few secrets.
As anyone might guess, with this type of dog, the public gets to learn or see very little. So much of this is classified. I think part of my earlier message contained my request for the SEK Hund protocol book - denied. I was welcome in many SEK classes - refused for others. We did have a good time with the fire training and the water training - I believe I have videos of this.
I think also, in the message above, a special forces dog is referred to - living in a family. As far as I know, SEK dogs do the same, but they're rather hard to control in a house or family situation. As I mentioned, the dogs have NO obedience training except down and crawl. On a leash, they're crazy. They don't know recall, sit, stand, etc - because this is detrimental to their real purpose - pinpointing and disabling major criminals.
Ask if interested, and I'll babble on about the fire and water training.
I'd add a thought: you were doing this for fun ....... but fighting isn't fun. Sleeves and pull toys are fun - Maulkorb is very serious.
I understand and partially agree, especially if you are getting into flanking, "massive amounts of physical pressure" and super high aggression. BUT for ME, this was just on my list of things to see and do with this dog do before he gets too old (he's 7ys old now). I will likely never see another dog (of mine) have this much bitework training behind him. And I still think fighting to a good dog with solid nerves is fun, although maybe not to one in the "learning process" and early stages of Maulkorb . I personally wouldn't teach it (I don't have a reason to) but I don't see anything wrong with working it if it's already there. JMO.
Thanks though, I like reading your posts, you certainly have been around the block.
All is good. No dissention from me. My personal background should be obvious: all of this is very serious stuff, but that doesn't interfere with you having fun - and particularly just seeing if your dog would work Maulkorb.
:) I just wish he was younger (and me, too!!), and you really wanted to do this kind of thing - plus I wish you lived a block away! LOL! I could light that lil' guy up but GOOD!
Years back, I had a Greif Lahntal son, Clint v.Hamskamp, bred him, and kept the one male from the K Wurf. On my site, I have a short video of "Klein Klint" (small Klint) at exactly 10 weeks old, on the round table, doing bitework. LINK By the time he was 8 months, his bite was sufficient to crunch barrel sleeves, bodysuit work was fine - and his Maulkorb work was the kicker. That rascal pulverized half of Tampa PD's K9 handlers. The other half wouldn't even take a sleeve or suit bite from him ..... it would take awhile to fully describe how much this dog loved fighting humans.
I realize this kind of dog isn't for everyone - haha - rough dogs are like 1% - most dog owners don't need or want this. I'm half crazy though - during my "dog life" I just adored rough dogs.
Steve Leigh
ps: there are 12 videos, y'all might enjoy them - all bitework.
Steve,
always appreciate your posts. 20+ years ago this is where my heart was at. I was obsessed with hard dogs and taking them to the highest level in real work. I loved agitation work and often laid in bed at night thinking (instead of sleeping ) of what would bring out the most in the dog and how to spot, or force weaknesses in them, and bring it to strengths. I was forced out of dogs until just recently, too old and tired now but still enjoy immensely the topics you are talking about. If you have a dog that is foundationally solid the limits for him are only our lack of vision. You have brought up some of these methods here.
This kind of work requires an obsessive personality, I believe, as it is a full time experience to see most everything in life as relating to these dogs. Dogs rely on bluff. Bluffing is a big part of their arsenal. Taking a dog from relying of bluffing to seeing themselves as having no need to bluff is an ongoing work and a real experience that requires lots of methods such as you have mentioned. ( By bluffing I am talking about the things that the dog knows are more then he wants to take on) thus the bluff. I will shut up for now, just wanted to say how interesting this topic has been and your input has brought much to it. Keep posting. Same with you Gustov and Spook.
always appreciate your posts. 20+ years ago this is where my heart was at. I was obsessed with hard dogs and taking them to the highest level in real work. I loved agitation work and often laid in bed at night thinking (instead of sleeping ) of what would bring out the most in the dog and how to spot, or force weaknesses in them, and bring it to strengths. I was forced out of dogs until just recently, too old and tired now but still enjoy immensely the topics you are talking about. If you have a dog that is foundationally solid the limits for him are only our lack of vision. You have brought up some of these methods here.
This kind of work requires an obsessive personality, I believe, as it is a full time experience to see most everything in life as relating to these dogs.
:) Thank you so much! I'm glad I can share. The world I live in now, nobody gives a damn about training, Maulkorb, SEK, Beiss Anzug, or strong dogs. I'm sort of a dinosaur that already passed the peak. But it's really nice to exchange and/or possibly "teach" again, even in this limited medium. My health may inhibit what I loved doing, but my mind is as sharp as it ever was. (OK - I'm walking into it face first - go ahead and laugh - I am!) The reality is, I've usually been very lucky. I ventured into situations that opened doors, and I'm very grateful to all of the people who allowed me to learn. Being an Amerikan, and a non-LEO, and being allowed into Stukenbrock - not once, but twice - was an honor. Training with Gene England since 1983 was an honor.
Working with genuine fight is something which I believe the average Amerikan has never witnessed, probably never will, and I'll explain why. Today, I had two interesting phone calls, both focused in on fight.
Amerika isn't socially ready for dogs of this intensity. This country believes in "pets". Dogs living in the house, sleeping on the bed, etc. Honestly - I do too. Of course my dogs slept in bed, sometimes 6 or 8 of them! Germans (Polizei and SEK) do NOT believe in this. They aren't ready for "pets". The dogs are for work, play is a necessary part of it, but the entire purpose is work. SKIP THIS PART IF YOU'RE SENSITIVE: Example:at Stukenbrock (first time) I made some videos of a Dobe about 3 weeks into Polizei training. The dog was useless. He came off every bite, was too hyper - I have no idea why that dog was at Stukenbrock or assigned to a Polizeihundefuhrer. The PH (police dog leader) was a really nice guy named Jorg. On this day, after all this shit with the dog coming off the bite, (for 3 weeks), the class leader took the Dobe, walked him a few hundred yards away, and shot him in the head twice. Jorg cried, was sent to the barracks, and the following morning, he was assigned another dog. That's the dog Jorg graduated with. If possible, please try and understand this: it's as if the Dobe never existed. Nobody in the class (10 + Jorg) ever mentioned him again. Everyone just went on with the work. This kind of activity in Amerika would have people screaming from coast to coast - yet the US kills dogs by the million every year. In Germany there are no "dog pounds" - none are needed.
I've digressed. Amerika wants too much. Here, a criminal gets bit, maybe busted up pr
I have not had time to read this whole thread, so apoligize if this has been asked. From a sport perspective, where grip (when on the bite) is almost "all important" (i.e, calm, non-mouthing, non-regripping, full-mouth) wouldn't muzzle work create a situation that is counter productive? To expand a little, when on the grip, while the dog can be and it encouraged to "fight" the helper to some extent (assuming the grip does not suffer), but theyou go and teach it how to fight using other aspects of it's body, doesn't have the strong potential to cause grip issues? I.e. if the dog that once focused all of its concentration on the full mouth, firm, calm grip is now fighting more, wrapping its legs around the helper, thrashing about with its legs and paws - doesn't thistake away physically and menatlly from the focus on the grip?
While I don't want to get into a discussion on the merits of sport mindset vs. K9, each is what they are and serve ddiferent purposes. Regardless as to how short sighted the whole grip "focus" of the sport world is, there isn't a good dog with a bad grip that will excel. So why teach it something that might detract from it channeling everything into the real matter at hand, that being the grip?
Steve, were you finished? Didn't sound like it. You are getting into some phylisophical differences that need to be addressed if we are going to get the big picture. People today, especially the younger generation have no idea that there is a different way of doing business or why.
Calvin, If you search for a post that Gustov wrote awhile back he addresses this issue very well. Good luck.
Steve, were you finished? Didn't sound like it. You are getting into some phylisophical differences that need to be addressed if we are going to get the big picture. People today, especially the younger generation have no idea that there is a different way of doing business or why.
Hi Olskool, and All - this message editor is "unfriendly". I had written 4 more paragraphs, and the message was cut short in the middle. OK - let's talk philosophy re: Maulkorb and/or including serious dogs, SEK, etc. I like this subject - I'll never know it all - I spent a lot of time involved in non-sport dogs. So I'm happy to be involved in this discussion.
To answer Calvin - if Schutzhund is your goal, don't waste the time or money on Maulkorb work. At the risk of alienating many sport people, I dropped out of SchH because I found it too boring. There are no SchH exercises which hold the excitement of a serious dog. I'm really sorry that many people here probably didn't see the "old" Schutzhund: in the late 1970s-1980s. The dogs were asskickers back then. But that doesn't change the fact that SchH is - in a way - just a rehearsed ballet. Everyone does exactly the same thing, over and over again. After years of it, some people get bored.
Maulkorb - done the way I learned in Europe - is not a ballet or boring. It's a road which leads to something which is rarely, if ever, seen in the US, and certainly not at a sport type event. I was previously babbling about the difference of US vs Europe. My chopped off message contained my opinion - that's all it is - Amerikans want too much. Dual purpose this, that. A dog which WILL really fight, but also allow himself to be mauled by kids, etc. German (European) training - not for sport - is a lot further apart than the 5000 miles to cross the ocean.
Until I went to Stuckenbrock, I had never seen a REALLY serious dog in my life - and I'd done plenty of Maulkorb for years. Out of ignorance, I thought I'd owned and seen tough dogs. But in Germany I learned a different mindset. Now I'm worried this message is going to get chopped in half again.
I know this dog and the type of temperament that he has with his age and background and you have a dog that will perform when asked to without one element changing another. One of the things you must understand about this dog is that he is rock solid. A lot of people really don't understand the strongest of shepherd temperament. I will analogize it like these two boxers. Mike Tyson...super tough, fast hard and could conquer most everything in his path. There are dogs like that that are super good sch/police dogs. But a stronger temperament than Mike is Evander Hollyfield. Why ? because of his toughness, hardness, clearheadness and resilency. To the novice the Tyson type is the most impressive and don't get me wrong you can go to any level with the tyson type. But Andy is like the Hollyfield type in that his rock solid clearness in the head and toughness, and(this is the big one) his biddability to be trained the way that is taught him make him special.
Therefore with a dog like this you can do multiple types of training at high levels and the dog will react to what is needed and asked. Not many dogs like that today. They are either smart and soft, or more drive than brains, but real shepherd breeding and working has to think and do what is asked and still be tough. Muzzle training often flushes these characteristics out. Trust me if Steve had grabbed an ear an twisted the dog would have turned another page. But why do that to let somebody who doesn't read dogs be able to see it. Its not necessary. And I don't mean you Calvin, I just mean the dogs does what is necessary for the occaison!
One thing people need to understand is that muzzle work is not something you do on a young dog. Young I mean one who is still learning how and where to bite properly. Muzzle work is one of the final steps to make a dog street ready. Also you dont do muzzle work all the time, you would probably do it once every few months if that. So you would still keep the full hard bite. Also for the sport people who just train for the sport thasn no you would not need to do muzzle, but remember that then dont rely on your sch111 to really protect you. Your sport dog may protect you but remember the unknown is scarier than the known.....
I'm sorry to disagree with almost every statement, Xeus. By 8-9 months, most of our 12-20 DSHs were easily crunching barrel sleeves, had been doing Maulkorb from ~5 months. (Teething time is excellent for starting Maulkorb - biting is typically painful for teething dogs.) It's understood that 9 months was not the final product - in our "world" Maulkorb (and Schutzarm) is always, always, an ongoing thing - naturally. Beiss Anzug (suit) never happened until the bite was right. Anzug is counterproductive for grip, depth, and pressure. Ask, I'll give you a sensible reason.
Re: Maulkorb "all the time" - in the early stages, every day, 3-10x, short and increasingly intense sessions. Being a table trainer, I learned from Gene how to habituate a very deep grip - the table does about 90% of the work, the helper just needs to pull. Watch the videos on my site - several of these dogs had only been on the table a few times - watch the grip. I think most of the videos state the dog's age, and how much work was done. When you see me pull the dog AND the 250lb table a few feet, you realize that the dog HAS a grip. Watch the grip. See if any dogs are "sleeve freaks". Observe if the dogs really want to fight, and maybe also notice that world famous "prey drive" is nearly non-existant.
Many of the statements I see here are indicative of what Amerikan viewpoints accept as "standard". I feel this is natural and expected. The majority haven't been exposed to more serious applications (ex: SEK Hunde) and technique.
Steve, thanks so much for sharing all this inside knowledge. I think you are very accurate in what you assert here in your posts from the little bit I know from back int the 1980's. An acquaintance of mine with contacts within the BKA once told me about what he called "special anti-terrorism GSDs" which were part of a secret program that could not be discussed openly (at that time). He said these dogs were trained with a very narrow set of tasks and would get and keep control of the terrorist when dispatched, and that they were incapable of experiencing any fear at all at anytime. That they were bred, selected and trained for this purpose and were amazing animals. This was during the times of the miner-badhof (sp?) eruption in Germany in 1982 if I remember correctly. You have filled in the blanks for me about these dogs which I did not know were called SEK dogs. Thanks so much for sharing this hard to get information. I too find schutzhund work as you describe it, boring after awhile. To me It is not real world. For those who like it for proving a dogs temperament so they can show it in confirmation, great. For those who really like competing in it as a sport, fine. It's just not my thing.
I ask a lot of questions and quite frankly don't care if others think they are stupid, pointless, or I want to know too much...because I am that driven as an individual to gain knowledge with the things that spark me. I want to know how things get put together, why things work the way they do and what methods can gain the same results but in an easier fashion such as the tip that Xeus gave me to help me handle Agar easier. My trainer says it can be frustrating at times training because he loves my dog and knows he's ready to advance and do bigger and better things but that we are not at that level yet. lol The part that keeps him focussed on being patient is my determination to keep trying regardless of how long it takes. He kicks my ass a lot sometimes...lol so I feel like I get it from all ends- husband, trainer and even the damn dog BUT they can't break me down. lol I keep coming back for more. I must love the abuse or something. lol If I start to complain about it being "chilly", or that I forgot my gloves...he tells me stop whinning like a girl! lol Then I have to remind him I AM a GIRL! lol But getting back to the thread...I'd like it very much too if you could explain what was happening in the video GARD posted as I have watched it on Nates site before and have much respect for their training practices but never had anyone explain to me what was being shown with the dogs body language and the decoys actions. And Gard is right; not many folks know how to train that way as I have never seen it done until I saw it one Nate's site.
, you tube is going to start charging me for bandwith, lol. So be nice so helper's don't start refusing let me tape.