A question I can't answer - Page 4

Accurate comment Xeph. My biddable dogs will do stuff for praise, but I still use a toy if I want it done with verve.

Margaret N-J

Xeph, you are right, high value rewards are very important in training. I use them and always have for more than 35 years.

It’s also important with any dog, biddable or not, to find out what activities the dog loves (herding? tracking? retrieving? watching television?) and make sure he gets the chance to do them.

Seems to me there are two parts to biddability.

First is can the rewards be phased out without physical corrections after the trained behavior is learned or does the dog insist forever on being paid? If he does, this is not a biddable dog. A biddable dog is usually happy to accept payment (although I’ve met some that seem insulted) but finds a huge reward in making you happy. These dogs do exist and I have worked with and owned them. They are a joy to work and live with. (I have to admit I like a lot of stubborn dogs too but that is not what my clients want.)

Second is what does the dog do when he really wants to do something and you tell him not to do it? If you tell him no and he says screw you and does it anyway, this is not a biddable dog, assuming we are past the bratty adolescent stage. If you need aversives (like an e-collar) other than a verbal statement of your disapproval to get him to not do what he wants, this is not a biddable dog. One of the most remarkable biddable dogs I ever met was an Airedale for Pete’s sake, one of the most stubborn breeds around. I saw the owner walking him off leash and cringed expecting a disaster. Then a squirrel bolted right across the dog’s path and the dog got all excited and started to chase it. The owner just quietly said no, the dog looked at him with his tail wagging and an are-you-sure-about-that look, the owner said no again, and the dog just went back to walking with him. Head high and happy. So of course I had a long talk with the owner about the dog. He was also amazed by his dog, said he had never had a dog like that before, it was just the way the dog had been since he was a puppy, and he had never corrected the dog except to express his disapproval with a no and a glare. That was a biddable dog.

Tough to find but well worth looking for.

There is also what I call situational biddability, which I’ve seen in two service dogs. These guys are total butthead party dogs when they’re not working. But when their owners get out their service dog vests the dogs become ecstatic, and once they are in their vests and working their behavior is perfect. No rough training was done to teach them their service dog work, and I know it wasn’t because I trained them. It’s like the dogs know how important it is to act right when they’re working and it’s very important to them.

I think a lot of dogs—especially GSDs—are a lot smarter and more profound than many people give them credit for. IMO “just a dog” is the biggest oxymoron ever.

My Straussdog (rest easy, Moobear) was as you describe. He really wasn't a biddable dog...until you put his service harness on. After that? Completely different dog. If he wasn't doing what I asked, it was because what I was asking was wrong and would kill us.

"He really wasn't a biddable dog...until you put his service harness on. After that? Completely different dog."

Which means that he had incredible judgment and was extremely tuned in to you. Truly he was a superdog but of course you know that.

My dog is the same way about his SD Harness. But it's not just Service Dogs, it's also Search Dogs. They know and understand what that harness is and go into working mode. It's a ritual.

The good working dogs know the difference.

I remember once, when I had first started using Strauss as a service dog, somebody saw me suiting him up to go into a department store. She had seen him just 30 minutes prior at agility class, screeching and being a general jerk.

She didn't believe it was the same dog *ROFL*

My male is as you describe, not over the top in prey drive, likes a ball but lives to please me. He loves the praise most of all, though ball would be second. He is the easiest dog I have ever trained, and I'm told many of his offspring seem to learn by osmosis. He's 9 now, and I think we may have 2 more litters planned in the next year or so. I'll be devastated when he passes.

Melissa

The whole concept of domesticity is based on another species understanding of "biddable" within their opportunity of having their needs met. Domesticity as an idea, relies on the leader species for accepting everything to provide for the survival of another species. In exchange, there is given, biddability. Now, If the leader of a domestic species experiences conflict from its underlings, then they are not providing the security or resources needed to the follower species that they need to remain compliant.

There is conflict with the bond. Genetic or otherwise.

A theory, anyway. 😏

@Jackie: Same thing is with Athos. He's an entirely different dog when he's geared up for work. It always amazes me how much his entire demeanor changes when the actual mobility harness is on.

Melba, which of your males is it that you're talking about? Nero?