Are civil dogs often hardheaded and unsuitable for Law enforcement? - Page 6

What I see in dogs that lash out on handlers is bad training and frustration not all the time but alot

Ya'll must not like the new KNPV dogs then, because a lot of them are just like that female I posted. Big pushing driving grips, highly possessive and prey based. Never seen a highly prey/possessive based dog have an issue biting for real either. Also usually you don't have an issue with Hunt Drive with these type of dogs.

The female I've posted is just like those dogs.

The trainer at my former club was constantly giving my female corrections with the prong for not paying attention to him while she was heeling.

She drew blood on him a couple of times.

I used a more positive method of training her (not all-positive, though - she can be pretty hard-headed!) and she responded better to that.

Yup. There were a number of reasons I changed clubs!

My whole contention is that there is a section of the working community especially among GSD folks who are quick to write of this extreme aggression , dominant , and sometimes non social dogs as weak nerved or fear biters. In the knpv community these kinds of dog behavior seems to be quite regular.

Dogs like Uwe von der Heidenschanze are not weak and people can absolutely recognize what a dog like that is. Thats the type of dog you are talking about. Everyone wants one of those but they can't handle them.

It's usually the other way around. People love this stuff and believe they have this great protector on their hands because he's either coming up the leash or lashing out at neutral people all the while he's protecting himself and not because it's a strong dog.

And yes, these dogs still exist. They are still out there, there are plenty of strong dogs out there. The main difference is training methods have changed, there is less conflict between handlers and dogs and these type of dogs can still be trained to the highest level of obedience. Just look up Uwe. Watch his videos. He is every bit what you are talking about and yet you can barely even see it because of the high level of training he has received.

I am comparing apples to oranges. I think the unregistered Mals/DS's from Holland like the van Leeuwen lines are bred for a dryer dog who is not so prey based and not that interested in a toy and are so dominant, if you tried to get the toy back, you would lose. I also think some of those breeders have done a much better job are preserving and not breeding out true social aggression. They have never bred for looks, so valuable genes weren't lost at the expense of conformation. They are purely bred for work. As I said, at least one person I know who breeds/supplies unregistered KNPV Mals/DS's moved away from the highly dominant aggressive lines toward the extreme prey/hunt drive lines with very solid nerves that are not civil in the classic sense. He wants very social, confident dogs and has suggested that is the way the trend is moving in Holland. So to answer the original question, the very aggressive dominant KNPV Mals/DS's are unsuited for law enforcement if they don't have a handler who is capable of handling that type of dog. Add to it, the issue that they are trained in KNPV and then, if really good, sold to do police work with a brand new handler. Extreme dominance in an adult dog and inexperienced handlers are a poor match.  The Dutch dogs I'm referring to would not be trained to the high level of Uwe due to it not being part of the training culture and the dominance levels of the dogs.

Baren
Uwe has a nice ped. But which vid shows him as no nonsense presence , very dominant , natural aggression. I see him being easily handled by an ave built 125 lb woman. Why would you conclude "most people cannot handle a dog like that? ".
I also said that Hans Pegge says that Ducco best son was not at all a social dog , but he credits him as the best son of another legend.
Im not sure "the they are still out there GSD " you are talking about is the same kind of dog Im thinking of.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA and that's exactly my point!
Just because a 125 pound woman is handling that dog "with ease"  you think he is an easy dog.

Skill and Training is what made her capable of handling him but that doesn't mean he's not exactly what you described. You see a WELL TRAINED dog and think it can't possibly be a dominant and civil dog. Talk to Stefan Schaub about him. He owns him now.

no, I dont like the dogs that are stuck on a prey item and hard to get off, see that in some videos of KNPV youngsters as well, each to their own,

full calm grips is good for points, nothing more

There have been many very tough dog's handled by women. Gento v.h. Larwin was KNPV titled and handled by a women. I think some women could potentially be better handlers with such dogs because a man or woman will not likely win with brute force, so the handler has to be a thinker. He was valued as a dog that would not go down in drive, even after a solid correction. That is one of the differences between the GSD and some of the Mals and DS's. The latter are often so driven, they still in a high state of drive and frustration, which makes they were good performance/sport dogs.