A question I can't answer - Page 6

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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 23 June 2017 - 17:06

I have yet to see a Service Dog that can be conditioned in solid task training through praise.

If the dog isn't the whole package and doesn't have food drive, I don't even bother.

Show me a solid SD that was conditioned with praise only. I want to see proof! I want to see the dog, I want to see videos of how he was trained and how he works the public and performs. Because otherwise, I do not believe it.

by JonRob on 23 June 2017 - 18:06

As for genetics, the biggest mistake I made as a young trainer was thinking socialization can overcome genetics. I quickly learned that genetics is the most important determinant of a dog's character, including biddability.

For example one of the things I look for when trying to find a potential service dog for a client is a natural off switch. Does the dog quietly settle and lie down--with no command to do so--in public if nothing is going on, or does he have to be directed to do so. Yeah, I can train a hyper dog to hold a down stay for a long time, but he will quiver and often whine while he does it and when released will jump up with a shriek knocking down everything around him. Not only is a dog like this not suitable for service dog work, he would be unhappy if he was forced to do it.

A harsh trainer can ruin a biddable dog but you cannot train biddability into a dog who doesn't have it.

An unsocialized dog who is genetically sound can come around very quickly with proper socialization. A genetically unsound dog can only go so far no matter how good the socialization is.

The thing that absolutely nails it is the Russian tame and aggressive fox experiments where they created extremely tame and extremely aggressive foxes through selective breeding:

"LYUDMILA TRUT: We did an experiment with cross-fostering, where we gave aggressive cubs to tame mothers and vice versa. We found out that the mother's behavior does not influence that of the cub. This [aggressive] cub was brought up by a tame mother.

NARRATOR: The results are clear. The difference between tame and aggressive foxes is almost entirely genetic."

http://animal-lore.blogspot.com/2013/07/dogs-decoded.html

 


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 23 June 2017 - 18:06

No disagreeing with you there. It's what I've been saying all along.

What I'm disagreeing with you is the fact that you can train solid tasks with praise alone. That you can condition a dog with praise alone.

That's where I want to see proof and I don't want to see the finished product. People can talk all day long, I want to see the training itself, with praise, alone and how a dog is conditioned to perform certain tasks with praise.

by Bavarian Wagon on 23 June 2017 - 18:06

Sorry...but at a young age (puppy age) dogs are doing things out of drive and instinct. To get a dog to understand certain exercises and perform wanted tasks, things need to be taught and a great trainer can take a lot of dogs of various levels of "natural biddability" and make them shine. The dog can be taught to interact with the human in certain ways that are more conducive to what the human wants to do with the dog and how the human feels most comfortable interacting and rewarding that particular dog. At an older age...more of a green dog...you can see what the dog "naturally" wants...but a young pup can for sure be molded.

The best example of this is comparing puppies out of the same litter when they're trained by professionals or higher level trainers and those that are given to amateurs or simply "pet owners." The amount of engagement you'll see is night and day...even when the litter itself was very uniform and presented very similar traits at 8 weeks when placed.

Socialization is not biddability...environmental nerve is definitely genetic. Interaction between a dog and a human though can definitely be shaped.

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 23 June 2017 - 18:06

An unsocialized dog who is genetically sound can come around very quickly with proper socialization. A genetically unsound dog can only go so far no matter how good the socialization is.

And that's why some dogs can recover quickly from being raised in a puppy mill with no socialization, while others never will, and may have to be euthanized.

by JonRob on 23 June 2017 - 18:06

"What I'm disagreeing with you is the fact that you can train solid tasks with praise alone."

And I have no wish to try to convince you otherwise. You are totally entitled to your opinion.

I believe it because I've seen it. You haven't seen it so you don't believe it. Fair enough.

The most spectacular case I saw was a dog that a friend trained to do real world tracking--including across cement--in 3 days. All he had to to was show the dog what was wanted, get him to understand that it was a job, and jump up and down cheering the dog when he found the person. The dog would literally jump for joy when he found the person. No balls, toys, or food. The dog is of course a superdog and there aren't many like him. But he does exist.

I always try to remember that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in any of our philosophies.


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 23 June 2017 - 19:06

Tracking is a wee bit different than task training. Especially when we are talking Scenting Dogs to begin with. Tracking and Hunt is genetics for a lot of breeds and dogs and when turned into a game, the game itself is the reward. This is very different from training a dog in solid tasks that go against the nature of a dog.

Service Dog Task Training. TRUE Task training that is conditioned over a year in any and all situations where a dog solely works based on muscle memory, that I want to see done with praise only.

Most SD trainers I know, wouldn't bother with a dog that doesn't have the food drive to condition them with.

 

And while I understand that Guide Dogs were trained with praise in the past, the failure rate was simply too high to continue with that type of training. Just like IPO dogs in the past were trained a lot through praise and compulsion. There are better ways. It doesn't make sense. And if someone only uses praise it's because the understanding of how much power lies in food work isn't there.


by JonRob on 23 June 2017 - 20:06

I'm not saying praise only should be routinely used. I almost always use food to train a dog new things. My point is that a good trainer takes the time to find out what the dog finds most rewarding. For some dogs--not most--this is enthusiastic praise.

"This is very different from training a dog in solid tasks that go against the nature of a dog."

I would never train a dog to do service dog work if it went against his nature. Step 1 in service dog training is to find a dog who is naturally inclined to do the work and would enjoy it.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 23 June 2017 - 20:06

That doesn't mean that you don't train them tasks that go against the nature of a dog.


by JonRob on 23 June 2017 - 22:06

"That doesn't mean that you don't train them tasks that go against the nature of a dog."

That's exactly what I mean. I do not train service dogs tasks that go against their nature. Just like someone who wants a herding dog doesn't get a Labrador and work against the dog's nature to try to train him to work stock. I find dogs that naturally have an off switch and a few other things and the rest depends on what is needed. For example if the owner needs the dog to pick things up I look for a dog with a good retrieving drive who will be happy to do this.





 


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