Sportism - Page 28

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GSDfan

by GSDfan on 23 May 2016 - 20:05

Koots, exactly...the use of the word Permanent in "Permanent default (setting) on equipment preference" in Hans's original post was the whole reason I commented to begin with.  

Even if just to say I do not have that problem the way I train.


GSDfan

by GSDfan on 23 May 2016 - 20:05

Before he comments...I acknowlege hans believes starting the dog his way would have been better (even though I disagree)... and i acknowlege PSA title does not necessarily mean the dog was civil...but the dog is required to bite on hidden equipment for the title.
My comment was about the absolute of the word permanent.


Prager

by Prager on 24 May 2016 - 04:05

Koots:So Hans, it would seem that your original posting that sportism "IMO opinion it is a faulty approach because it establishes permanent default (setting) on equipment preference." is a faulty one, by your own admission.      Since you obviously re-trained this dog Varo, that had previous sleeve training, to bite on the suit and target the man for the PSA title, your assertion that "sportism" sets apermanent default is not true.     It comes down to training and the individual dog's character.​

Hans: I have said this many times. Here we have a great  example why some say I repeat myself ad nauseam.  I'll be patient . I promise. But I'll be patient. I promise. 

No !. When you introduce a dog to something 1st time, like sleeve associated with command to attack, then you are establishing a default. Which means , and  I have said here on this forum many, many, many, many, many,  times since I was a member and even recently, and no again I say it and will highlight it.     Default is  what the dog learns in given situation first time . And what the dog learns, first he likes most does best and reverts to under stress. 

However it is possible to  train over it  yet the "default"   is there permanently regardless of retraining. Imagine like that you are covering the default with blankets of other training . Just because you have covered it does not mean that it is not there.  It is there and it will be there for ever as the dog lives .  Then when stress comes then  the stress then penetrates these "blankets"   and the default shows up........ and because of that when you are switching from one type of a bite to another , competitions are lost and in case of police dogs some defaults are reason why people sometimes  die. That is my point .  

 You may not understand it, like it, agree with it.  And you may not like me and thus say this is crap because that bombastic idiot, blow heart Hans   said it. Nevertheless that   is not  baring   the fact that what I  and many others like Armin Winkler   basically said, is truth which I can  pratically show to anyone if they care to see it.    

Prager Hans 

 


by duke1965 on 24 May 2016 - 05:05

that is the case in any TRAINED behaviour, apport, positioning in sit etc, so something tought wrong is hard to correct, but doesnot change any NATURAL behaviours as drives , drives will kick in when triggered no matter what you trained first
wont denie you can shape or pressure a dog into moving their tresholds a bit left or right but that is another story than whatever they did first

Koots

by Koots on 24 May 2016 - 05:05

Prager/Hans - I don't hate you, but I am merely trying to point out that one cannot make broad, sweeping statements about dogs and their training such as you have done. Each dog must be trained in a manner that works WITH their character, not just by a textbook example. Some dogs can be started on sleeve/equipment and by their very nature will not hesitate to take a "naked" bite.

Anyways, no matter what I write, you will have a wordy answer to and will not admit that I could be right, so there is no point debating any more. You can have the last word on this one.....

GSDfan

by GSDfan on 24 May 2016 - 13:05

Hans: and in case of police dogs some defaults are reason why people sometimes die. That is my point.


GSDfan: Can you specifically identify these "cases" where police officers (or even civilians with trained dogs) "sometimes die" due to this default to equipment? Because as a Police officer myself, who has seen Police dogs work (not just during training), and who studies many Police dog deployment incidents I would love to research these cases and see what you are claiming to back up your theory.


Prager

by Prager on 26 May 2016 - 05:05

@koos,
that is a bumper sticker wisdom. Is my answer succinct enough for you? :)

Prager

by Prager on 26 May 2016 - 05:05

Duke: that is the case in any TRAINED behaviour, apport, positioning in sit etc, so something tought wrong is hard to correct, but doesnot change any NATURAL behaviours as drives , drives will kick in when triggered no matter what you trained first wont denie you can shape or pressure a dog into moving their tresholds a bit left or right but that is another story than whatever they did first.

  Hans@Duke:  drive is inherited and what it is used on is learned. If you use a drive ( prey or defense)  to target equipment instead of man  as a foundation then you will NEVER be able to get rid of it   even though you cover it with further training . 

 Take it or leave it.  

Damn! I am good writing short answers. You see what all I do  for the lazy or short attention span  people? 


Prager

by Prager on 26 May 2016 - 05:05

gsdfan: I have not say handlers. I have said people. And I have given example here 2x so if you would actually read what I am saying since that would be nice since you disagree with me so wehemently, you would know about the video. I would give it to you again but then my post would be too long. Sorry. ( passive aggressive Hans:))

 

No here I tell you. Google Homeless Albuquerque man dies. James Boyd. I do not want to judge anything else but the dog. You will clearly see how obviously sportism trained dog failed to engage and eventually started   playing with blue bag of sorts instead. Typical sportism clusterfk. I will maintain that if the dog would actually engage the man then the man James Boyd did not have to die or at least have better chance to live. Warning very graphic. Man dies on this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI

 

Prager Hans


by vk4gsd on 26 May 2016 - 06:05

Prager at least amongst the educated research means more than trawling the internet for a YouTube video and even then the reality is more complex than what you see in a minute.

You will never get it I am afraid.






 


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