Bitework Question: How should trainer progress. - Page 19

Pedigree Database

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by beetree on 29 June 2016 - 15:06

GRAND ORGASMIC CLIMAX as Mithuna

@Swarnedu.... aren't you the clever one! LOL  Are you Hindu? 

(I think GSDFan thinks for herself. When someone starts to ask serious questions and is more appreciative of her skills and knowledge, I would venture to guess she'd be happy to engage in that conversation.)


As for... back to the topic....? Hasn't that been answered....  repeatedly, by Mithuna, himself: He will follow his trainer's advice on how his trainer wants to progress.

 

 


Mithuna

by Mithuna on 29 June 2016 - 15:06

Swarn:

Many dogs throughout a pedigree being linebred on a particular dog is not the same as a "how much importance I give to a dog's ancestor 11 generations back "

And where did i recommend Prager's business?


by Swarnendu on 29 June 2016 - 15:06

@Mithuna, "So Bee , now you know where to put down your deposit if you want a type 1" is a direct recommendation.

As about "Many dogs throughout a pedigree being linebred on a particular dog is not the same as a "how much importance I give to a dog's ancestor 11 generations back ", I will learn about that from the posts people will submit here.

@beetree, yes I'm a Hindu, but I'll CLAIM that the meaning of his name and what I wrote was completely coincidental. 😜😜

But, this is also off-topic. ☹

by Bavarian Wagon on 29 June 2016 - 16:06

Mithuna…first, go back to my first post. I was the FIRST person to say that your trainer was training your dog correctly and had no problem with your dog being worked in bitework. I know you have super special selective reading but in this case, please get your facts straight before you start yelling about things that you have no knowledge about.

Your dog CAN do bitework. I’m talking about WHY your dog bites and WHERE the bite comes from. It’s no surprise the dog bites out of defense and has almost zero prey. That has nothing to do with the dogs 5+ generations back in your dog’s pedigree. It has even less than nothing to do with the dogs 11 generations back in your dog’s pedigree. What people are pointing out is CORRELATION and not CAUSATION. It’s the human need to make sense of something, and an even deeper dog trainer need to make sense of something in a more complicated way than necessary because it makes them sound smarter than others.

Just to explain the math to you…there are 2046 possible ancestors in an 11 generation pedigree…of those 2046, people are pointing to a dog that shows up about 10 times in that pedigree. So about one half of one percent. That’s the dog people want to point to as causing the aggression/defense in your dog? COMICAL. No one even knows the about 2000 other ancestors in the pedigree, but for sure, the aggression must come from the one dog that shows up about 10 times in the pedigree. Does anyone even know what the dog your actual dog is linebred 2-3 on is known to produce? Or does that not matter at all? You know…the dog that probably affects your dogs temperament more than any other in the pedigree? You know…the dog that is 2/14 of the closest relatives to your dog?

Once you open up your mind a little about this training and dog thing, you’ll figure it out at some point that the people that talk about dogs from 50 years ago showing up in a pedigree are just using it as a marketing ploy to swoon people like yourself who hang onto every one of their words as if they mean something. You lack the practical experience to truly understand how a dog’s pedigree affects how they work and why dogs 5+ generations back really don’t make any difference whereas the parents do matter. On top of that, the forward part of your dog’s pedigree is much less impressive (proven by your complete lack of control when it’s brought up the parent’s aren’t titled) than the back part of your dogs pedigree, it makes complete sense why you hang onto those big dogs in the back even though they make no practical difference to what you’re seeing out of your dog.

Mithuna

by Mithuna on 29 June 2016 - 17:06

@BV
"Just to explain the math to you"
obviously without counting you use your own figure " about 10 times " , and then you infer " COMICAL ". I guess the conclusion was already forgone before the " math ".

Despite my saying many times that the dog will chase a ball for as many times as I can throw it ( and then she fights me for the rag/tug while in the house ) , you some how conclude " ZERO prey ". I mentioned that defense over rides as the decoy approaches.
The trainer said she has lots of prey and she can do either PSA or IPO and that he is going to develop her bite foundation in prey.

BV "
 A dog that’s a bit insecure at 6 months, or a dog that is reacting to things that it shouldn’t at a young age…will develop into the kind of dog that you now have. It’s no surprise to anyone that your dog is the way"

I have been told the opposite of your understanding  by other  at least 3 persons experienced with working with high defense dogs. First give a LOGICAL reason as to why a dog can  normally show PREY drive from a couple week old but UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES  can it show defense at 6 months. In fact those persons said that because of maturity  very often a show of early defense in genetically high defense dogs can be misinterpreted as insecurity by persons not familiar with this type. Then later on with maturity ( and appropriate training ) , these dogs can produce a  HUGE fight  along with that aggression. 

I know of someone  who had a 5  month old daughter of Ulla Vom Poppitz that backed an intruder into a fence that gave them time to call cops and an arrest was made. 

 

 

 

 

 


by Bavarian Wagon on 29 June 2016 - 17:06

You're right. Chasing a ball and playing tug with the handler means the dog has prey. Why didn't I think of that? I wish you luck in developing your dog's bite in prey.

Mithuna

by Mithuna on 29 June 2016 - 17:06

So what drive  causes the dog's willingness to chase a ball at full speed even though she already flat out tired lying on the ground.


by Bavarian Wagon on 29 June 2016 - 17:06

Prey drive during bite work causes her to get up and chase the ball...you've got all the answers already.

You're right on man, dogs are such simple creatures, that every single one of their interactions with objects or humans can be broken down into two drives...prey and defense. There are no other natural instincts than prey and defense.


Western Rider

by Western Rider on 29 June 2016 - 17:06

The desire to please the owner who would push their dog that far. Had many dogs who loved to chase a ball some who would never bite anything (non-GSDs) others who would chase and bite.


GSDfan

by GSDfan on 29 June 2016 - 17:06

@Mithuna: do not be too impressed by Hans's crystal ball. It is pretty simple to see your dogs pedigree without asking. Just click on your name and see what dogs you have been granted edit rights to....there is but only one...your dog. I guarantee Hans knew the answer before he asked you that question. He took that approach to impress you, and what do you know...it worked! LOL

 

BW said:"I find the focus on dogs 8-15 generations and the complete disregard for the fact that 2 dogs out of the 6 in the closest 2 generations are titled really comical. That’s more than likely the reason for your dog’s aggression issues and defensive nature than anything. As no one has ANY idea what 4 of the 6 dogs that are the closest in relation to your dog were like."

GSDfan: I totally agree^^. As well as the 2-3 inbreeding.

 

@Swarn: I never detracted my advice, it still stands.  I reacted to repeated concerns with persons who apparently had more information on this dog than I did. Being a person who is concerned with making ill advised encouragements over the internet I only backed their recommendation to do OB first with this particular dog and attempted to educate the Mith on correctness regarding temperament. Not sure how it is in India but here we live in a country with breed bans and lawsuits, the concern is justified.

 

@BW: Mith is taking his dog to an IPO trainer for PP training on a defensive dog (Drives and temperament atypical for the sport) and says he knows what he's doing because he's a high level IPO TRIAL helper. I never said this trainer didn't know what he was doing, I don't know him. For all I know he might be God's gift to dog training! I merely cautioned the novice not to make assumptions based on ONE credential.






 


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