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by Prager on 12 September 2018 - 19:09

"Prager, you mention pavlov, thats great, so by saying "pozor " if trained well, you trigger an expectation, not a drive, the dog will be looking for what he expects to happen after that word, the actual visual confirmation of said expectation will trigger the drive"

Prager / Hans: This is semantics. Expectation or drive same thing. Dog expect action so he gets in drive. In any case, how thing such "expectation" or "drive" happens? It happened as a result of secretion of hormones of one kind or another. That secretion of different hormones can be conditioned and dog can get aggressive or relaxed on command. What do you think happens when dog sleeps and you command him POZOT!/ALERT! ? Adrenaline shoots up and he gets aggressive. That is what any training does. What I am saying is that you can on command do the opposite as well. You say that "tons of dogs" will not defuse. So you are saying that they are in drive even when they sleep. Of course not. Any protection dog can be trained to defuse. It is trivially simple. I do it all the time.

by Prager on 12 September 2018 - 19:09

apple:". If a dog will work for anyone and a handler is someone, isn't the dog working for the handler? It would be more accurate to say the dog will work for the handler and others, and some of that depends on the dog."


Prager Hans: Some dogs will work for anyone with toy or treat and some will work only for their handler - regardless of toy or trea. Such dogs who work only for handler need to first bond with his new handler before they will work for him efficiently up to their trained potential or at all. Dogs who work for anyone for toy or treat, will work out of the box if you have a toy or treat but will not work for you if you do not have such toy or treat or will work for you less and less due to the extinction of conditioning. Unfortunately these days dogs are trained to work for themselves and not for the handler. Such training seems desirable and works well in sport, but it comes with the tremendous amount of baggage in PP or LE.


by susie on 12 September 2018 - 19:09

Personally I like dogs "in drive, but obedient" - a simple matter of proper training.
A dog "waking up on command / trigger word" may be useless in case I am not able ( for example: simply not there, sleeping, injured, or not being aware of the threat ) to give the command...
You can't "switch on / off" genetic drives, any "command" will always only be a trigger, capping or stimulating drives by command, but never removing.
That said: what do you want to own? A dog waiting for a trained trigger, or a dog genetically able and willing to work on its own, guided and supervised by obedience?
I prefer the genetically alert, suspicious, discerning dog, even in case I have to control it.
Even a fear biter or a social best buddy is able to bark and bite on command, good enough for an on leash "PP dog" - by far not good enough for long distance bites, or in case of PSA/IPO good points.


by Prager on 12 September 2018 - 20:09

Susie what a bunch of gooble-de-gook. You are mixing natural protectiveness with conditioning.
And to say that you cannot by a command turn a dog into being in drive or not is totally ignorant.

by ValK on 12 September 2018 - 20:09

sussie, i don't see that Prager disregards genetic. contrary his reference to carnivores behavior (which is not trained) and desirability of similar behavior in dogs, clearly demonstrate his view.
as for dog's independent decision making - that's depends on dog's level of intelligence, selfsufficiency and ability to think and act independently without relying exclusively on input from handler.
dog in almost permanent drives and thus in needs of constant control from handler is abnormal dog.
perfectly normal dog stays in neutral/indifferent state until necessity for this or that drive arise.

by susie on 12 September 2018 - 21:09

"Gooble-de-gook" ?
Never heard this before, but doesn't sound polite...
"Ignorant" I do understand...

People world wide successfully work with high drive dogs, in real life and in sport - high drive Mals and crosses today do the work our shepherds used to do - street work, scent work, points...

by ValK on 12 September 2018 - 22:09

sussie, i guess term "successful work" depends on personal perception.
street work and sport work for highest possible points need a very different type of dogs.
when demand of dog sport enthusiasts have today massive offering to chose from, LE/military often forced to work with what they can get.
that could explains so many news headers such like "police K9 attacked the kid on street", "officer was forced to shot K9", "K9 bit the officer after been pulled off perpetrator" and so forth.
behind all that cases - drives, overwhelming in dog everything else.

by susie on 13 September 2018 - 05:09

I guess most of those hoŕible accident are caused by stupid LE handlers, owners, people as whole ( like uneducated children running to every dog on leash they see, be it a Chihuahua or a Rottweiler.

by duke1965 on 13 September 2018 - 06:09

prager, your off, expectation and drive are not the same

call "pozor" to your dog in an empty room and see how in drive he will be,

calling pozor will alert the dog that something (helper ), as allways trained(creating expectation) will come, 

that helper will trigger the drive

recognizing details make ALL the difference in your training

susie says it right, in drive and obedient, but not in and out of drive on command

Or how some trainers want it today, OUT of drive and obedient LOL

by joanro on 13 September 2018 - 11:09

Thumbs UpThumbs Up@duke and Susie,

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