German Shepherd Dog > Litters affecting health (59 replies)
by ggturner on 25 January 2011 - 23:49
|He (vet) is a family friend and is not against breeding.|
by jmopaso on 26 January 2011 - 01:22
|Any breeder who has the best interest of their reputation and the health of their female in the forefront will look at all aspects of the specific situation.|
The theriogenoligists actually are saying that there may be no detrimental affects to bitches or puppies from breeding back to back litters. It has been a long established fact in horses that it is better to keep a broodmare bred than not.
It all depends on how the individual recovers. In my experience, not as a breeder, but as a vet tech, if the bitch has not recovered well and is not ready , then she won't conceive on back to back litters. Their bodies often know what they are up to doing.
Mother nature really does know best in many cases.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 26 January 2011 - 06:25
| Quote: THEN NOT TO MATE HER UNTIL 18 MTHS.HAD PASSED.We went ahead and mated her,once again she produced 11 pups.She had no problems whelping either litter but this 2nd litter was not as even as the 1st,as we had some larger more substantial pups and others that were small and runty.Yes i know that this could be down to genetics.|
I am not some mad scientist, but too many times people will say NEVER, when the answer is yes you can, and it will not hurt a healthy bitch. Not sure where you got the idea that I think that bitches should be bred every single time, but I have had bitches that were really really good producers and yes, they produced back to back to back.
It also depends on your goals. If you just want a pup or something then, why in Gods name would you breed like that ? : ) If you are trying to create your own line, and you have a bitch that is really making you happy with everything, then yes you breed that one as much as you need. I had a few like that and they were always happy. The weird size thing is genetic. NOT the bitch. I can tell you that they were pretty happy and when retired from breeding they were not happy unless they were surrounded by pups. It was what they knew.
Quote: Jeff--as a mother and a Biology teacher, I can tell you that being pregnant, giving birth, and nursing are hard on the mother's body.
I have to make fun here. You are a human being. What kind of shape were you in before you were pregnant ? What did you eat ? I doubt that you were no where in the shape that most dogs........ who are designed to give birth more than once a year. You are human, and they are dogs. Not comparable at all.
I see someone already told you about the article. It is crap. I absolutely am not joking when I say that way too many people out there in internet land are repeaters. They just tell you what they heard. Then you add in the "agenda" that often comes with the urge to actually write an artice.......... for money, and you end up with crap.
The bitches that people have gotten the whole idea of NEVER EVER breeding back to back from are pretty much NEVER EVER supposed to have been bred. You know, the ones that melt down and lose way to much hair, weight, muscle tone, ect. THey are not able to deal with it, and should never be bred again.
Many people want to improve the breed, but want to breed to bitches that melt like butter in the sun when bred.
I have a maiden bitch who has 10 pups and they are fat, SHE is fat, (good grief) and now that they are two weeks old, wants to muck about and run around with a stick like she did before she was prego. She is a MAD chick. At least this part of the deal she is doing really really well with. Now, if the pups are just not doorknobs, that would be great. Gotta find out what the deal is there.
Long way of saying that,
1, IF you are starting a breeding program and want your own line, then why not breed a bitch back to bakc to back and see if she can deal with it. That is a pretty basic thing that you need to know to have a viable line.
2, I am not talking the person that "just wants a pup". I personally believe that they are the ones that should not be breeding, as you want just one. LOL
3, Making money is not a shameful thing as SOOOOOOO many people on here say. Selling crap dogs is a shame, show line dogs are a shame, ( ha ha ) You will never see people selling horses crying about the money that they get for the damn things. Dogs are LIVESTOCK people. I learned that in the kennel business. And not in a way that I wanted to learn either.
4, Look at what people are saying, and ask yourself are you agreeing with it because it is an opinion that you like ? Why are you believing something. Did you have ONE bad experience ? Are you su
by Jeff Oehlsen on 26 January 2011 - 06:37
| Quote: I did find a German Shepherd breeders code: http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/breeders_code.html. It states that the female should not have three consecutive litters unless recommended by a vet. This looks like a good code for responsible breeders. It does not reference any research. It is based on ethics and responsible breeding practices.|
WHOSE ethics then ? Why is it responsible ? I worked with people doing research when I was younger that had a theory and only applied what went along with what they "theorized" was the correct answer. LOL That is what you did, you went and looked for something that went along with what you think is responsible. You did not go out and look for the truth, just what you wanted to hear. You are an opinion shopper. : )
Quote: Biologically speaking, a female dog can have two litters a year. Biologically speaking, a female human can give birth and within 3 months after giving birth can conceive again. Just because it is biologically possible doesn't mean it is in the best interest for the health of the female.
Ok, so this seems to be your premise. What research have you done, other than assume that a human, who is not bred by any other means than they want a baby, or had sex and forgot chemicals to block the pregnancy is the same as a dog that is bred for performance, has a gestation time that is 7 months quicker, and is basically in better shape and eats better than every single human female on the planet ??
See where this is going ? Children are not livestock. Dogs are. Think how many people if they were bred by a dog breeders standards would EVER give birth ?
by noddi on 26 January 2011 - 09:56
|Sharma,i see yu 2 have had the same experience as me when yu too did a back to back mating with your bitch who had 2 large litters.yu are a show breeder are yu not not?Jeff,here in the uk we have a GSD BREED COUNCIL,who have ,yes show breeders mainly,lists of breeders they recommend ,who do all the health tests,to the public who are looking to buy a gsd pup from health tested parents bred by responsible and ethical breeders.One breeder who i know was taken off this list when the council met coz they found out that this person had bred one of their females back to back 4 times.They considered this method of breeding to be TOTALLY UNETHICAL.I AM NOT AGAINST BACK TO BACK BREEDING ON OCCASIONS BUT BACK TO BACK 3 TIMES IMO.IS UNETHICAL.I know in germany this is sometimes done,but in germany the bitch will only rear 6 pups,the rest will either go to foster dams or be culled.In the wild(now that yu are classing dogs as LIVESTOCK,only the alpha female will mate and whelp pups,BUT ITS THE SUBORDINATE BITCHES IN THE PACK THAT FEED AND REAR THE PUPS.Dogs are now domesticated and altho.still retain their natural instincts they are not wild animals no more.So,all these bitches at puppy mills/farms(as they are known here in the uk)MUST BE OK AND HEALTHY COZ THEY ARE ABLE TO MANAGE TO PRODUCE PUPS SEASON AFTER SEASON THEN????????????NOT IN MY BOOKS THEY AINT.My bitches would and could produce large litters season after season if i wished to subject them to this cruelty,I DONT AS I LOVE MY SHEPHERDS.Yes i treat them like children,so wot,they were,are and always will be part of the family and not LIVESTOCK AS YU PUT IT.My dogs have all been healthy thu,out their lives,most never seeing a vet till at the end of their lives and on the occasions they,ve been to vets ,its only been for very small problems such as tummy upsets,cut paws,ear complaints and also for health tests such as hip scoring etc.I have never had any still born or fading pups in my litters and i,ve been breeding from 1989 to 2002.i,m very reluctant to breed these days as there are so many animals going into rescue and yes they,re is a percentage of these too from reputable kennels ,who health test their breeding stock,BUT THE MAJORITY COME FROM IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS WHO MATE THEIR BITCHES BACK TO BACK TO BACK TO BACK ETC.AND SO IT GOES ON.I take it that yu are a W/L person.DO YU RETAIN ALL YOUR PUPS THEN ????????????DO THEY ALL GO TO WORKING HOMES?????????Yu speak as us show ppl.only have crap dogs.Sorry not the case.IMO OPINION PPL.WHO CONTINUE TO BREED THEIR BITCHES SEASON AFTER SEASON SHOULD BE THE ONES WHO SHOULD NOT BREED NOT THE ONE WHO WANTS TO KEEP A PUP TO CONTINUE THEIR LINE BE IT SHOW,WORKING,OBEDIENCE ,AGILITY OR COMPANION.i personally havent a problem with joe public breeding the occasional litter as long as both parents are health tested and passed.Carole Spelman|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 26 January 2011 - 11:05
| Quote: In the wild(now that yu are classing dogs as LIVESTOCK,only the alpha female will mate and whelp pups,BUT ITS THE SUBORDINATE BITCHES IN THE PACK THAT FEED AND REAR THE PUPS.|
Dogs do not work like wolves, and do not really have the pack structure of wolves. However, I do not see what "In the wild" has to do with livestock. How you jumped from livestock to wild is beyond me.
Quote: So,all these bitches at puppy mills/farms(as they are known here in the uk)MUST BE OK AND HEALTHY COZ THEY ARE ABLE TO MANAGE TO PRODUCE PUPS SEASON AFTER SEASON THEN????????????NOT IN MY BOOKS THEY AINT.
When did I mention puppy mills ? I have no idea how you jumped over on this one as well. However I have seen rescue bitches that came from a puppy mill and she had been bred every single time she came into heat until they were shut down. The paperwork said she was 8, and had had 16 litters. She was fine when I saw her last, and she was 13. That was a few years ago. One example though, I imagine some didn't do as well.
Quote: My bitches would and could produce large litters season after season if i wished to subject them to this cruelty
How is it cruel, and how could you know unless you did it ? Your straw man arguement of taking everything said to the farthest possible reaches and beyond is not going to work here. You are not trying to do anything as far as making a line, you are occasionally breeding. Why take it all and blow it up like this ?
Quote: BUT THE MAJORITY COME FROM IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS WHO MATE THEIR BITCHES BACK TO BACK TO BACK TO BACK ETC.AND SO IT GOES ON.
Still we are not talking about the same thing at all. You are talking about puppy mills. I was not talking about puppy mills. It is all right to have feelings about puppy mills, but leave them out of this, as no one is talking puppy mill.
Quote: I take it that yu are a W/L person.DO YU RETAIN ALL YOUR PUPS THEN ??
Why would I keep them all ??
Quote: Yu speak as us show ppl.only have crap dogs.Sorry not the case.
Show us a video of your dogs working. I would love to be proven wrong.
Quote: IMO OPINION PPL.WHO CONTINUE TO BREED THEIR BITCHES SEASON AFTER SEASON SHOULD BE THE ONES WHO SHOULD NOT BREED NOT THE ONE WHO WANTS TO KEEP A PUP TO CONTINUE THEIR LINE BE IT SHOW,WORKING,OBEDIENCE ,AGILITY OR COMPANION
What line ? You want one pup, and cruelly breed a bitch to get just one pup, when you could just go and buy one. See how selfish that is ? : ) Yes, at this point I am teasing you, as maybe you are getting a little emotional. That or you keep hitting the cap key.
Quote: .i personally havent a problem with joe public breeding the occasional litter as long as both parents are health tested and passed.Carole Spelman
Here in the states, it is not the breeders that are causing the problem, but joe public breeding litters and not having anyone wanting them, they go to the shelter. It is the occasional litter multiplied by thousands that causes problems. All for one pup. They all say that you know, "Bob is such a good dog, we just wanted one pup from him. Never occurred to them to cull, just let someone else do it.
by ggturner on 26 January 2011 - 14:48
|Quote from Jeff: "You are an opinion shopper." And I suppose you aren't? You are spouting your opinions and belittling others. I won't engage you anymore--I don't argue with what's that word you like to use, "doorknobs?"|
by mrdarcy on 26 January 2011 - 16:10
|Moderator warning. Could we please keep to the topic at hand without all the back and forth personal comments. Thank you. mrdarcy (mod)|
by Abby Normal on 26 January 2011 - 17:07
|In the UK dogs are not classified as livestock but companion animals.|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 26 January 2011 - 21:22
| Quote: Quote from Jeff: "You are an opinion shopper." And I suppose you aren't? You are spouting your opinions and belittling others.|
Where is this belittling going on ? I have bred bitches back to back to back and so on. I actually have experience with this. Do you ? With more than one bitch ? So whose opinion is based on experience, and whose opinion is based on how they feel ?
You can call me a doorknob. I don't care about that kind of thing, however, I can see that you are upset about this. It is not easy for people when they find out that what they have thought for so long is not correct.
It is easy, as you can see for people to go to bizarre lengths and start talking about puppy mills and abuse and basically try and blow it all out of proportion.
Just because someone says that a bitch not only can have back to back litters, and for years, but can do it and be healthy and happy doesn't fit peoples ideals of what is right and wrong doesn't mean that you should get upset.
We plan dogs breedings. We choose stud dogs, we research pedigrees, we do all the things that livestock people do. That is why they are classified as livestock. Just because Walt Disney gave them human voices doesn't change anything as far as reality goes. You sell off excess sheep, or cows, just like you sell puppies. They are not your children, as it is not legal to sell children. : )
by sable59 on 26 January 2011 - 23:01
|tess and the rest of you that don't know what the hell you are talking about. i do regerster and i do get hips and elbows done prior to breeding and i also have some of the best working dogs out there.we are not a puppy mill and a lot of smaller breeders aren't either'. the hips and general health of my dogs are excellent. my kennels are kept very cleaan,sprayed out with a high pressure hose. we completely sanitaze each and ever week. i had some things to say to you all but the southern genteleman that i am, i refrained. ALSO, i have an investmen of 100,000 usd. me, make money.i don't think so. i never got into the dog breeding to make money. i do it because i want to, before i leave this place,have a bloodline that will make the capt. smile. i am retired, i have made my money.NOW I AM HAVING FUN. i sincerely hope you all do to. THANKS JEFF O COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER.|
by TessJ10 on 26 January 2011 - 23:18
|sable59, why are you dragging my name into it? What post of mine talked about you doing hips and elbows and registering your dogs???? WTH?|
Unless you are this person: http://www.how-to-breed-dogs.com/frequency_of_dog_breeding.php .
sable59, is that you? If not, what do I have to do with your rant?
by noddi on 26 January 2011 - 23:38
|Tess,it was me who brought up the subject of kc registering and hip scoring and i apologise for the confusion.to Sable59,i also apologise to you also for assuming you dont do these health tests.What i wont apologise for is my opinion on this subject.we were asked for our views by the OP and thats why i posted and i still stand by wot i believe and that is that i wont be breeding my bitches back to back at every season.I dont care whether my bitches are healthy and happy enuf to do this (which i believe they were when they were younger)now aged 10 and half and 8.If you wish to do this then that is your perrogative.every now and again is ok in my book but not on a continuous basis.Iwill advise anyone else who ask about this subject the same thing.I think there are more people who agree with me than yu Sable59 and Jeff O.,but dont want to come on here and be belittled .Carole Spelman.|
by TessJ10 on 26 January 2011 - 23:40
|Thanks, noddi. No problem.|
No problem either, sable59.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 26 January 2011 - 23:55
| Quote: I think there are more people who agree with me than yu Sable59 and Jeff O.,but dont want to come on here and be belittled .Carole Spelman.|
Just point out one place that I belittled you. I have a different opinion and you bringing up puppy mills as an arguement against breeding back to back doesn't hold water.
I am not even suggesting that people breed back to back, which I get the impression you think I am saying. What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with it, and it is not unhealthy, unless there is something wrong with the bitch.
Look at all the testing people have to do now. Look how many times people have had bitches not take. Then look at the false idea that breeding back to back is wrong, cruel, or makes you a puppy mill. I have seen bitches melt into skeletons after one breeding. Maybe by breeding only every once in a while, we have created the false impression that looking like a skeleton is normal after having pups. I am telling you that it is not, and to perpetuate this is going to have repercussions, the same that we see all the time.
You want your opinion heard, and I am ok with that, but having only done it one time, and seeing that the bitch was healthy and fine doesn't really jibe with the rest of what you wrote.
by sable59 on 27 January 2011 - 01:04
|tess.i have never seen so many people that is always so eager to argue. this is a thred. post and say what you want. don't throw rocks at somebody that don't do it like you or your group. i do what is best for my dogs not for me.I love my dogs and i will breed the way i'm breeding until someone,more knowledgeable than you folks tell me i am hurting my bitchrs.yhats all i have to say unless some throws a rock my way. good night.|
by noddi on 27 January 2011 - 07:55
|morning everyone.Jeff,i,m afraid your previous posts do read as yu were belittleing the ppl.who commented that they didnt believe that mating a bitch back to back at every season was good for the bitch.i still agree with my opinion,but thats just my opinion.i live in the uk and it is NOT THE DONE THING HERE.In fact the UK KC in conjunction with advice from the british veterinary association are from 2012 restricting the litter size a bitch can have to be registered by them to 4 litters(gsd females not to be mated before 2 yrs)It is law also in the UK that bitches should only whelp 6 litters.I also agree that it is considered the norm for us to expect our females to look like skeletons after having had pups.My bitches have looked pretty fine when they have had wot i consider an average litter(6/8)pups,but when my Otti had her last litter of 12(when pups were about 10/12wks)they didnt go to their new homes till then as we had a dispute re.fuel cost rises and no gas(petrol/diesel)was being delivered to the petrol stations,my bitch suddenly lost coat and body condition and my near neighbour phoned the RSPCA coz she was concerned about my bitch and i had a visit from them.So here in the uk,it appears many would NOT consider mating their females back to back every season.Carole S..|
by bazza on 27 January 2011 - 08:21
Hi Carol, hope you and your better half are well. While I totally agree with you on back to back breeding I honestly did not know that a law had been passed about the amount of litters a female could have. Just wondering why the likes of puppy farm owners are not prosecuted more if there is such a law in the UK. Mind you I have been out the game for some time now so maybe I missed this law being passed, lol.
by Abby Normal on 27 January 2011 - 10:08
Bazza see details here:
by SHARMA on 27 January 2011 - 13:36
|HI CAROLE |
SAME THING AGAIN ,,LIKE YOU MY BITCH ALWAYS LOOSES CONDITION AND COAT AFTER LITTERS ,,BUT THANKFULLY SHE HOLDS UP UNTILL PUPS HAVE GONE TO NEW FAMILYS
AND YES ITS SHOWLINES I BREED AND VERY PROUD TO DO SO ,,,AND OF COURSE LIKE EVERYONE WHO LOVES THEIR DOGS MINE ARE THE BEST LOL
BUT AGAIN I WOULD LIKE TO SAY DESPITE ALL THE SCIENTIFIC STUDIES AND PRO/ ADVICE
GIVEN ,,ONLY A GOOD OWNER AND COMMON SENCE KNOWS THERE DOG
ALTHOUGH MY BITCH HAD 2 LRG LITTERS WITH IN A YEAR ,,SHE DID HAVE 2 SEASONS BETWEEN
EVEN SO THE LITTERS WERE NOTICABLY DIFFERENT IN SIZE,,AND THAT I PUT DOWN TO NOT GIVING HER ENOUGH TIME TO GET BACK IN CONDITION FULLY
UNTILL THIS TIME I HAD NEVER HAD A STILLBORN OR FADER , BUT I HAD ALSO NEVER MATED SO SOON AFTER THE PREVIOUS LITTER ,,
THUMBS UP TO THE NEW LAW ,,,BUT IM SURE PPL WILL FIND A WAY AROUND IT