German Shepherd Dog > Would love some opinions on this pedigree (30 replies)
Would love some opinions on this pedigree
by odin24 on 18 January 2011 - 17:35
I would like some opinions on this pedigree, I am looking for a schutzhund dog/companion. Fairly new to the breed have a 2 year old WL male, loving schutzhund with him. Same breeder as my current dog, slightly different lines.
by SchaeferhundSchH on 18 January 2011 - 18:14
| How serious are you about Schutzhund?|
Personally I would not go with this for a schtuzhund companion. Neither parents are titled.
The mother is 9 years old and doesn't even have a BH, let alone a SchH1-3. Not even a personal protection title, listed as a police dog, nothing.
The father is 8 years old with also no titles. Also does not have any health testing listed. Which is a huge no no IMO.
Unless you know the owners and these dogs do in fact have the health testing and the titles but their pedigrees have not been updated. Or you have seen the dogs work and they do not have titles because of an injury or something,Then I would personally say no thanks.
Not having a title on a dog can mean a few things. Either the handler is incompetent. The dog has either no drives, or too much drives so the handler cannot harness them. Or the dog is injured. Not having enough drives, and having too much drive are often large reasons in a dog not earning titles. I've seen way to many handler and canine teams playing on the schutzhund fields who cannot control their dog to save their life. That IMO is against the standard and is not a dog you want as a schutzhund hobby dog or a companion. Its not a working dog because the dog either cannot do the work because it doesn't have the drive, or it cannot do the work because it has so much that it cannot even think properly.
You have to find that happy medium.
I want dogs who have proven themselves.
Just my personal thoughts.
Good luck in your search!
by danny killeen on 18 January 2011 - 20:52
| Pedigree, grandparents back, is full of titles. Maybe the current owner of sire and dam is not in to competition.|
Don't get too hung up on titles. Many are 'midnight specials', so I am told....
Also, I disagree with the comment, '...not even a PP..'
IMHO many titled sport dogs are INCAPABLE of true protection, so PP should actually be a higher status.
Someone, somewhere, suggested that sport, for more than 3 generations, would lead to the detriment of the breed. Now, if only I could remember who that was?
by Gemini on 18 January 2011 - 20:58
|How does your current male do with schutzhund? I only ask because of the info on the above post seems to be good advice but you must have seen something in your male to consider going back.|
To the above poster:
You think the lack of titles of the parents out way the rest of the pedigree? I am a beginner and ask questions to learn and you seem to give direct answers and that is great thanx.
by Gemini on 18 January 2011 - 21:00
|Sorry the above poster comment is referring to SchaeferhundSchH|
by odin24 on 18 January 2011 - 21:12
|The reason I am considering going back to the same breeder is mostly because my current male (same breeder) is awesome! Super slow to mature but has great drive and is an absolute joy to work! No these breeders aren't into competition, other than there own dogs most dogs in the pedigrees are titled. I was looking for some opinions on whether or not this would be a nice cross of lines. I don't really think the parent HAVE to have titles to produce nice dogs with lots of potential.|
by Gemini on 18 January 2011 - 22:43
|I try to learn about pedigrees and what dogs to look for. Alot of the dogs people comment about are in your dogs pedigree. Also when I view studs and people selling working pups I see alot of the dogs in your pedigree. So in my ignorant way of thinking it appears to be a good ped. And I agree with you parents dont have to be titled but especially with the rest of the pedigree being so strong. ( yoschy, car policia, and what I think are ddr dogs) But again that is my opionion only a beginner.|
by Gustav on 18 January 2011 - 23:18
|I love the pedigree for getting a good sport dog, still in every litter there will be better dogs for sport than others, but the genetics on this breeding is very good. I think the bigger issue is WHICH puppy you get if sport is what you wish to do.|
by Jenni78 on 19 January 2011 - 00:33
|This is a very strong pedigree for sport. I would really question the knowledge of anyone who disagrees. Some of those dogs are very highly regarded. Only one generation is untitled. There are zillions of reasons dogs aren't titled.|
by SchaeferhundSchH on 19 January 2011 - 00:39
| My reason for wanting titled dogs in the pedigree as well as health tested dogs in the pedigree is because if I am paying money for a dog, I want to make sure I am supporting good breeding practices. I want to get a dog from health tested parents who are more likely to produce healthy puppies. I am willing to pay more upfront to avoid enduring a terrible amount of pain and anguish from an unhealthy puppy with a terrible health problem.|
Titles are not everything, no. However it is the first step to proving the dog can do something. Sure there are midnight trials, but that is why you observe the parents in person, or speak with someone of experience who has seen the dog work. Or watch videos.
Conformation is important to me, so I also want to see a Breed Survey on the parents to make sure the dogs are breeding quality.
I've seen some dogs get told in show and for their breed survey that their German shepherd does not even look like a German Shepherd. I would not want to get a dog out of a parent whose been told by an SV judge that it doesn't look like a German Shepherd. I'm not paying for an ugly mutt. If I am paying money for a pure bred German Shepherd Dog, I want to get quality. I want to support a breeder who takes the time to get to know the ins and outs of the dog. Not shrug off titles because "they aren't competitive".
Then again I've been told I can be a dog snob at times.
Gemini to answer your question, for my personal dogs, what I intend to do with my dogs, and what I prefer, no the pedigree would not outweigh the fact that the parents are not titled. Usually training in schtuzhund turns into a gateway into the rest of the dog world for German Shepherds. Someone who two years ago only wanted a schutzhund dog, might realize after the dog mature that they have something really spectacular and want to show or maybe breed. They go off and do all of that. Then they have a litter of puppies responsibly with titles. Well it doesn't look very good when you have some dogs in the pedigree who no one felt like titling.
Serious working dog people who want to go far with their dogs do not buy dogs from untitled parents. I have seen a lot of puppies out of untitled parents but working lines, end up in pet homes because no working homes want those dogs.
The pedigree is not the only reason you should be buying a dog. You need to look at the parents conformation, their working ability, the puppies conformation, the puppies drives and working ability, etc.
So no, even if I was considering a puppy out of these parents, the pedigree does not outweigh the lack of titles and health testing.
by Jenni78 on 19 January 2011 - 00:46
| Serious working dog people absolutely DO buy pups from untitled parents. SPORT people often do not. If, and only if, you believe any home who doesn't do SchH is a "pet home" (incl. SAR, PPD, PSD, MWD, etc.) then your statement is somewhat correct. |
Where are you getting your information, SchaeferhundSchH?
Are you aware that some working dog groups like some PSD trainers and MWD trainers will not even buy titled dogs? Titles are not the be-all, end-all to MANY serious working dog people, if not most. Knowledegable people will evaluate the dog, not the titles of the parents.
by SchaeferhundSchH on 19 January 2011 - 01:01
|"Knowledegable people will evaluate the dog, not the titles of the parents. "|
So then if they are evaluating the dog, then why even look at a pedigree.....
I also never said the titles were the be all end all. They wanted opinions on the pedigree, I gave mine and you gave yours. Thats that
by Gemini on 19 January 2011 - 01:28
|SchaeferhundSchH, I left out the health testing. While it is not pushed enough here in the US that is vital. And thanks for you info I can see what you mean. Good things to consider why you feel those ways. I like the detail you put into puppy search thanks alot. But I think I high jacked this thread. Since you seem willing to share your knowledge SchaeferhundSchH what do you think of the pedigree. Seems to be very nice but I am only comparing with some of the studs I have seen advertised and dogs people have raved about. But what do you think of it.|
by odin24 on 19 January 2011 - 01:44
|You are totally right about the health testing, I did see ofa papers on my other dog's parents before I bought him from this breeder. I don't think she updates/uses pedigree database very much, pedigrees on my dog's parents don't show hip results either. The main reason I want to go to this breeder is because I can meet the parents, the dam is one of the coolest dogs I have ever met! Personality +++ I have yet to meet the Dad but intend on doing so long before making any deposits. I am nervous about essentially buying a dog online, this way the breeder can recommend a puppy and I can make sure its the crazy monster I want. Instead of taking someones word on it. That being said I want a really good dog and would ship if I have to.|
by charlie319 on 19 January 2011 - 14:47
|IMPO Pedigrees and titles are relatively important to reduce the uncertainty in breeding or buying dogs, but in light that the stout pedigree of the litter, I'd be "ok" with the absence of titles on the parents. Even if they had temperaments that were less than ideal for sport, it is not unusual for traits to skip a generation here and there or to manifest every so many generations. As far as I can tell, the dam is very important in the issue of temperament on the pups, so the fact that you like the dam's temperament indicates to me that you would be pleased with a pup of hers that has been given the time for her socialization foundation training. Just like all great dogs don't procreate great dogs, every once in a while a less than stelalr dog becomes a signifficant stud. Look at Mink or Crok (if conformation was important, he'd be at the tail end of the line) as examples of pleasant surprises. Those who exclusively rely on documentary evidence to select a dog do so for their own reasons, but a knowledgeable buyer will look at the parents and the litter to see the qualities, both physical and temperamental and select which pup appears to have the traits he seeks. Having spent my share of early mornings training in bad weather I can see why some people may not be interested in titles or work/sport and yet have a dog they feel is good enough to want to reproduce. If you feel it is a good decision, and you've done your due dilligence, make your decision because you are the only one that will have to live with the consequences.|
by KYLE on 20 January 2011 - 13:35
|Pedigree is only one part of the equation. If you have someone that can test the pup or litter for you, hae that done. As stated before there are many reasons why dogs don't get titled. I bet there are many good gsd's kenneled and tied to trees because the owner has no clue what they have. Pedigrees and titles are nice. Seeing the pup and parents work is even nicer.|
by GSDPACK on 21 January 2011 - 04:28
|If this is the breeder you trust, then go with it. Pedigree looks good, remember you dont know how the parents work. They can be cool, but what if: there are some issues nobody knows about since the dogs are not worked in any venues. |
Ah and why do you think is your other boy (i believ it is a boy right?)is so slow to mature? When you picked him up, did the breeder tell you that these dogs could need some time to mature? Becasue that is one of the great things the breeders can tell you when they actually do something with the dogs. they know what they have!
Just a though
by OGBS on 21 January 2011 - 08:01
|Odin24, I would refer to SchaeferhundSchH's statement:|
"How serious are you about Schutzhund?"
I also reiterate this to all of the rest of you here. The OP said he wants to do SCHUTZHUND with the dog!!!
It kind of makes sense to look at parents with SCHUTZHUND Titles if you want to do SCHUTZHUND with your new puppy!
In my opinion, the pedigree is a total crapshoot.
You may end up with the best of both sides, one side or the other, or not at all.
It is pretty much an outcross with some nice dogs on the father's side that have produced a lot of good sport dogs and dogs that are in police departments, SAR, etc.
The mother's side looks good on paper, but, maybe a little further back. These are a lot of the lines that can produce dogs that are also slow to mature and may become overly defensive early on than say what most high-level Schutzhund people want. You need a good patient trainer/helper to work with these dogs. Also, producers of a number of police dogs and SAR in the mother's lines.
As for MWD's you may also find these dogs in some of them, but, who would know anyway? The military here in the U.S. is breeding their own dogs, so, I don't think anyone can really make any comments on that.
I also think it is funny that someone brings up the fact that PP dogs should be elevated to some great status when probably 95 out of 100 PP dog trainers in this country are pretty much junk-yard trainers.
Please tell me how many true PP dogs there are out there? And don't include all the people who bought a dog to do Schutzhund with and then realized that you actually have to track and do obedience also and they are too stupid or lazy, or, maybe life got in the way, to follow through with it, so, now they have a PP dog.
I also find it funny that people like to throw out the BS statement about "titled sport dogs being incapable of true protection". They aren't trained for that so why would they? That's about like saying every NFL player should be able to win a UFC title. Sorry, it doesn't make sense. They are different venues with different training. You do yours and others will do theirs. Any good dog person realizes there is value in what others do if done correctly. It's the BS artists that like to talk crap about what others do, usually because they are incapable of doing so themselves. Titled sport dogs are capable of true protection work if that is what they are trained to do. Maybe you aren't spending enough time around good dogs or good trainers to see it, but, frankly speaking, a good dog is a good dog. I'll also add that there are a much higher percentage of titled sport dogs that are capable of doing true protection work than there are PP dogs capable of doing Schutzhund. I would have to say that makes them a better, more versatile dog than a dog only capable of so-called PP. I mean, come on, a nervy, fear-biter can make a good personal protection dog. In another thread someone explained how her Chihuahua was an effective PP dog.
Neither are really what I would call lofty standards.
My suggestion to Odin24 is, really think hard about why you want another dog if everything is finally going so well now with the first one? I'm not saying it is wrong, just make sure you have time and resouces for another dog.
by Gustav on 21 January 2011 - 14:45
|The pedigree is a total crapshoot....then we get an analysis of the traits of the mother and sires side based on the pedigree????? I'm confused as to which is valid, the pedigree being a crapshoot or the analysis being a crapshoot.????|
by OGBS on 21 January 2011 - 17:19
|Maybe the crapshoot is your reading skills???|
I'll explain, there are two parts to reading. The first is the actual act of reading, here is where it gets tricky, if you do a careful job of reading it makes the second part much easier. The second part is comprehension. This is the actual undertanding of what you have read. See how reading carefully can make the second part easier.
The litter will be a crapshoot for Schutzhund. Many high-level Schutzhund type dogs on the father's side. Much less likely on the Mother's side. Not that they can't be produced on the Mother's side, but, not as likely. Therefore, with the lack of any experience by the breeders in training and titling the mother and father, I would say the litter will be a crapshoot.
If you have any hands on experience with any dogs being produced by the lines on either side you would know this instead of just looking at the pedigree, or, reading about them on someone's web site.
I train with many people with similar blood lines to those of the father. Most are national level Sch dogs. I also own a male with very similar lines to the mother's side. I probably won't know until he is about 4 years old whether or not he will be anything more than a club-level dog.
Here is where the titles become important. If you look at the mating the OP provided us, on the Father's side, other than the Father himself you don't see any dogs with less than Sch2 other than one female. On the Mother's side there are only a few dogs with anything more than a Sch1 or SVV1. This isn't necessarily bad, but, it shows that the people that owned these dogs didn't really feel they were worth the time or effort it would take to also put a Sch2 (not very hard to do after a Sch1) or SVV2 on them, or also putting Sch1 if they have an SVV1. If you know anything about serious dog people from Czech or Slovakia you would know that they are going to take the trouble to do this with what they think is a good female and even more so with a good male because it is very valuable for them to do so. In other words, take the time to also read what isn't there, not just what is.