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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > If someone breeds American Show Types... (92 replies)
If someone breeds American Show Types... by Wise Guy on 15 July 2009 - 22:10 |
| ...why would they want a pup out of VA1 Vegas? And why would someone even sell them one? |
by SitasMom on 15 July 2009 - 23:01 |
| If someone breeds American Show Types and looks around as sees how soft the American German Shepherd has become then they should try to find a way to improve them, including adding german show types or even very hard working types............ I would commend such a breeder! |
by Sunsilver on 15 July 2009 - 23:35 |
| Wise Guy, check out Dan Smith's kennel, Darby Dan. He's an AKC judge, and most of his dogs are descended from VA Can Sel Am CH Jim vom Fiemereck SchH3 KKL1a ROM. He's not alone, either. There are other American show kennels with German lines fairly close up in the pedigree. However, any dog with a roach back, banana back, slight upward curve to its back will not place in the American show ring, so breeders have to be very careful how much German blood they mix in. I'm seeing some changes in the N. American show ring that are giving me a bit of hope for the American style GSD. The dogs are becoming more substantial, at least what I'm seeing north of the border here. Here's the current top dog in Canada. Although he doesn't have German blood anywhere close up in his pedigree, he's a pretty solid looking boy! (Yes, I know he's got a steep, upright shoulder, but you'll have a very hard time finding an American lines dog that doesn't.)  Can. F.V. BrownHIll Kysarah's Maricio Now, if only they'd get some performance titles on these dogs, and force breeders to OFA the hips!  And yes, I'm all for crossing American show lines with German lines! http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/523413.html |
Sunsilver by Mystere on 16 July 2009 - 12:46 |
| First, they can't get titles on those poor dogs, because the working ability has been bred out of them, the structure won't let them retrieve over a wall or jump with a dumbbell, they couldn't do an AD if their lives depended on it, and I have yet to see one that didn't completely spook at gunfire. The AMbreds I have seen or heard of that did title were not from AKC show-ring breeders. They all came from long-term BYB breeders and had pedigrees to prove it. :-) Those dogs were a bit more substantial, had better nerves and everything else than the show-ringers. |
Mystere by Sunsilver on 16 July 2009 - 13:55 |
| Let's hear it for some of those BYB, then! If you hate what you're seeing in the show ring, that's sometimes the only alternative. Breed dogs with decent structure and nerves, and title them in performance events. BTW, I was surprised to find out the Canadian German Shepherd club has changed the requirements for the ROM so that the dog/bitch must have at least one working title before it can earn a ROM. Hurray for the GSDCC!! That's certainly a step in the right direction! When I attended the Nationals 2 years ago, many owners and handlers were having their dogs temperment tested, and that included a test for gun-sureness. The temperment test was taking place far, far away from the show ring though! Mystere, what do you think of Maricio's (Eddie) structure? I've never seen him in the flesh (yet) but he looks like he could work. Personally, I think he's the nicest looking Canadian breds I've seen in a long, long time. He's got great bone, good pigment, nice masculine head and strong ears. He's not overstretched in the back, either. |
by marjorie on 16 July 2009 - 14:56 |
| Sheesh- has it occurred to anyone that perhaps opening up the gene pool might lead to a longer lived and healthier breed? The German Shepherd Dog gene pool is now split into so many sub-sections that the gene pool is even more limited than other pure bred breeds. What with all the divisions between working lines, show lines, German bred, American bred,and so on and so forth, this is just a recipe for disaster for the breed. Opening up the gene pool is, IMHO, the only way this breed will survive. If people keep on breeding only in their limited subdivisions within the breed, IMHO, there will be no breed in 10 years. Genetic health problems will cause the breed to implode. People who go out of their own sub-sections should be praised, not criticized. They are the ones who will keep the breed alive. Sacrificing a title for the betterment of the breed is a totally unselfish thing to do. If you go out for 2 generations and then go back into your own subsection, you will breathe new life into the breed. JMHO, of course. Winning isnt everything, you know.. Marjorie Executive Director: New Beginnings Shepherd Rescue www.newbeginningsrescue.com 501 C3 OUR BUILDING PROJECT PHOTOS http://gsd911.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196 http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (including frozen/chilled semen database) BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
marjorie by marjorie on 16 July 2009 - 14:57 |
| ..and once again, I reiterate, not ALL Am bred showlines are extreme- not by a long shot! Mine certainly ARENT! Joss has his TC- and yes, a gun was fired at his test and he passed with flying colors. Please do not tar all Am bred lines with the same brush- frankly, its offensive. I know many German dogs that have also been spooks. As far as German Structure goes, those with curved roached backs are equally as horrendous, IMHO, as the extreme Am bred dogs! No one neds GSDS with egg beaters as legs, and no one needs a GSD that looks like a camel! If you look at the German bred dogs of long ago, you wont see any roached backs! Thats a fad, no more! I had a German bred dog, with all sch titled dogs in its pedigree and it didnt look much different than the Am Breds I have now. Additionally, the roach, which was a misguided attempt to get strength of back, leads to spinal problems, where the nerves in the back come together and get pinched. A roach is great for a bridge, but bridges arent meant to trot-Great in a fixed object, but an awful idea for something that is meant to be fluid and efficient in motion and cover the most gound in the least amount of steps. Marjorie Executive Director: New Beginnings Shepherd Rescue www.newbeginningsrescue.com 501 C3 OUR BUILDING PROJECT PHOTOS http://gsd911.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196 http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (including frozen/chilled semen database) BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
by Sunsilver on 16 July 2009 - 15:30 |
RIGHT ON, Marjorie!  I totally agree with EVERYTHING you've said!  Especially about the roach back being just a 'fad'!WAs it Bernhard Flinks who came up with that awful quote about "If you breed shit to gold, you're only going to get shit on your gold?" Well, that's the sort of narrow minded attitude that's going to ruin the breed. Everyone thinks THEIR dog is gold, or their particular type of GSD. Let me change that quote: "If you keep on breeding only gold to gold, you're going to get a meltdown!" That's what the laws of genetics dictate! When I got my first GSD in the early 80's dog books said the average lifespan was 11 to 13 years. Now, we have dogs dying at 9 or 10! WHY?? It's called INBREEDING DEPRESSION. And when I look at the German side of my bitch's pedigree, and see the same names over and over, I don't need to ask why it's happening! |
by Sunsilver on 16 July 2009 - 15:53 |
| "I had a German bred dog, with all sch titled dogs in its pedigree and it didnt look much different than the Am Breds I have now." I just spotted a very nice looking Yasko son being advertised at stud on the database. Here's how he stacks up agains Maricio (Eddie) once I've cropped the photo to make it the same size...  V Bax Weiss Agram  Except for the steep front on the Canadian dog, which would look better if his head weren't held up so high, I'd say they look very much alike in overall structure! |
by marjorie on 16 July 2009 - 16:18 |
| LOL- the German dog actually looks like it has MORE rear and a much steeper croup than the Am bred posted <VBG> Marjorie Executive Director: New Beginnings Shepherd Rescue www.newbeginningsrescue.com 501 C3 OUR BUILDING PROJECT PHOTOS http://gsd911.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196 http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (including frozen/chilled semen database) BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
by Sunsilver on 16 July 2009 - 16:36 |
| Pstt, Marjorie, it's a CANADIAN bred! (Waves her maple leaf flag....) Yeah, the German dog definitely has a longer back. I've seen some German dogs lately where the front and back halves looked like they belonged to different dogs! I've also noticed the American dogs no longer are the only hock-walkers around. Both camps need to stop breeding for extremes in structure. Here's a particularily bad example from the German lines:  |
by SitasMom on 16 July 2009 - 16:48 |
that bad example is gross! |
by Sunsilver on 16 July 2009 - 17:11 |
| What's even worse, is he has an SG rating, and is busy fathering pups! I wonder where his female get will find room for babies, if their abdomens are as tucked up as his! And that pelvis doesn't look like it would be capable of birthing a pup without a c-section. I certainly hope the females have larger pelvises! |
by Rik on 16 July 2009 - 22:47 |
| A few very top breeders of Am. S/L are breeding to German dogs. It is because every true Am. S/L dog goes back to Lance of Fran Jo, every line of 99% of winning Am. S/L goes back to this dog, and not really that long ago. There is another bottle neck with Sundance Kid (a nice dog). They have nowhere else to go to try and straighten out the genetic mess they have created. Vegas is a dog with very good structure and side gait. I'm sure they think that one generation of breeding to a German dog will correct generations of one dimensional breeding (side gait). Many are in for a shock if they think the German S/L dogs can come with issues of their own. Rik |
by sueincc on 17 July 2009 - 01:36 |
| "Sacrificing a title for the betterment of the breed is a totally unselfish thing to do." (marjorie) Can you clarify what you mean by this statement? Surely you can't mean working titles, after all, this is where Am Lines went so horribly wrong in the first place. |
sueincc by marjorie on 17 July 2009 - 01:38 |
| "Here's a particularily bad example from the German lines" Ouch- that hurts just looking at that :( Marjorie Executive Director: New Beginnings Shepherd Rescue www.newbeginningsrescue.com 501 C3 OUR BUILDING PROJECT PHOTOS http://gsd911.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196 http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (including frozen/chilled semen database) BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
by vonissk on 17 July 2009 - 03:25 |
| I am certainly gladto read some positive comments on mixing Am SL and German dogs. Thanks everone. My new puppy I am so proud f is Am SL and German/DDR working lines. She is my 3rd generation and I am so very proud of her. My goal is to produce dogs tht will win in the America ring and work on top of that--whether is be ScH PPD orSAR. One of her littermates has gone to CO for SAR and the guy is very very pleased with her. So Marjorie if I'm still kicking I feel I will have nice dogs in 10 years. |
vonissk by marjorie on 17 July 2009 - 03:48 |
| ...and I bet you will! :) Thank you for caring enough about the breed to do what you are doing :) Marjorie Executive Director: New Beginnings Shepherd Rescue www.newbeginningsrescue.com 501 C3 OUR BUILDING PROJECT PHOTOS http://gsd911.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=196 http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (including frozen/chilled semen database) BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
by Rik on 17 July 2009 - 03:51 |
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by Sunsilver on 17 July 2009 - 03:58 |
| Sue, I'm fairly sure Marjorie meant that if you outcross, you are going to lose type, and that will cost you ribbons in the show ring, maybe for a generation or even more. The American show ring just will not place German-style dogs with the upward curve in their backs. |
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