German Shepherd Dog > Fun-Tricky bicolor images. (67 replies)

by mfh27 on 19 May 2013 - 22:05

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Ella does not have toe penciling (only sparce black hairs, I dont know if that counts), but her heal is a mixed black and tan about 50:50.  She also has faint tan behind the ear.  But her face is completely black except for the over the eye tan patch and cheek to neck tan.  Her tan legs come up to her armpits in the front and groin in the back, but does not extend to her chest or belly.  The other thing is, she has gotten darker since she was a puppy.

Below is her sister, Debby.  Mom is sable carrying black; dad is bicolor or black and tan and carries black.  I have a hard time calling Debby anything but bi color.  Which would make Ella bi color.
 

by mfh27 on 19 May 2013 - 22:05

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Elkoor, does Apache's sable markings "hide" his bi color markings?  I've noticed sable color seems to mask bi color, but sable with black and tan are both expressed, ie codominant.

by GSD Lineage on 19 May 2013 - 23:05

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 mfh27 those dogs are very interesting! Look at the pasterns on the dog on the table!

by Elkoorr on 20 May 2013 - 00:05

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mfh, if you mean by that the tar heels and pencil toeing, then yes, he carries those markings. But so would also a dark sable that would carry black, like Tunguska. I only knew because of that one bi-color pup, and that Apache is the one who has bi-colored ancestry. Tunguska has pretty much all sable ancestry.

The girl I still have from my litter, Avanna, maybe carrying bi-color as well. She herself is sable. I assume this as she is different in a few ways then the other girls were (structural more masculine and large, coat type very rough to touch and different markings than her littermates) This was also the pup who had the "brindle" looking striping at birth. I tested her on the k-locus which was negative for brindle but positive for sable ky. Did not test her on the a-locus though.

by Elkoorr on 20 May 2013 - 01:05

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GSDlinage, I just saw a picture from a friend of mine's daughter holding a wolf pup from a zoo. The feet/pastern were similar marked...black with grey paws, same kind of round shape where the black falls off. Wonder if thats the "wild gene" Aw, also called wolf type gene.

by AmbiiGSD on 20 May 2013 - 13:05

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Bi colour = Tan point

by Jenni78 on 20 May 2013 - 14:05

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Black and tan can be very light to very dark. I still say those dogs MFH posted have too much tan to be bicolor, due to the location of the tan. It's not just how much tan, it's where it's located. Tan or red behind the ears, shading or whatever someone wants to call it, is not a bicolor. It's a very dark black and tan. I'd use the term melanistic. I, personally, don't see the importance of this topic and am not going to argue about it, but I have to admit I don't understand what's so tricky about bicolor vs. black and tan or what's wrong with black and tan that everyone wants to call the dogs bicolors, as if it's somehow superior, lol. If a dog has an all- black belly, toe penciling and tarheels, NO COLOR BEHIND EARS or onto neck, only tiny cheek dots or eyebrows, is all black in rear except for tan circle under tail, has all black pants, it's a bicolor. If there is color anywhere else, not a bicolor. 

by darylehret on 20 May 2013 - 14:05

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We have previously established that penciling and tarheels are not exclusive to sables that carry black. As example, Galant z Pohranicni straze and Zidane v h Sevens have those markings, but are not black carriers.

Could be that bicolor is just a less dominant degraded strain of the tanpoint allele, just as tanpoint (black/tan) alleles are just a mutated and less dominant variation of the wild type (sable) alleles. The basic principle that; "All agouti variants are due to mutated sable alleles" also allows the presence of "patterned sables" to be less confounding. Therefore, I find the notion that there could exist a precisely defined bicolor phenotype to be a pointless affair, considering that the genotype involved is a matter of fuzzy difference. Basically, the most degraded functional allele holds the least dominance in phenotypic expression.

Family strains of similar patterns sometimes have very distinct differences from those of other families. REMEMBER: alleles are not atomic elements, and should not be expected to be uniformly identical to one another. The dark sable Anrebri dogs are very distinct from the dark sable Haus Iris dogs. Black dorsal and ventral stripes of sables are controlled from the agouti locus, yet some have black ventral stripes, and some do not. Some saddles extent more than others, some blankets extend more than others. Molly's bicolors differ from other near variations, so she exempts them from her definition of "true bicolor". I'd say, give her the exclusive, and just put it to rest.

by Elkoorr on 20 May 2013 - 15:05

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Daryl, here is a pup from our old DDR line. I would call him a black and tan with reverse mask. The pic is an late 80s photograph scanned into the computer, therefor his legs look more yellow/white than they actual were.
Axel von der Gartenklause

by darylehret on 20 May 2013 - 16:05

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Nice.  Do you know if he carried recessive black?

by AmbiiGSD on 20 May 2013 - 17:05

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A larger expression of tan on the points, could be creeping tan?  also the reverse mask effect.

by darylehret on 20 May 2013 - 21:05

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"Masking Gene"


 

by yellowrose of Texas on 21 May 2013 - 03:05

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Pic on first posting of GSD lineage is not a Bi
Look at the under hairs in neck    they are tan or red and all thru legs too appear the double colored hairs..too much red on face
the gsd is a dark black tan/ feet not able to see any thing between or on either front feet????to denote a required marking of black on toes or feet?

Bi may not have any hints of tan or red on nose or face except a dash or dot over eyes..
Penciling on toes or between but if Tan is in face or anywhere else it is not a Bi...

Visit MelloDee at Germelhaus website/facebook   and see Cuzko and his brother Chase..

Those are true Bi. colored Males from MelloDees C litter
her facebook has both dogs pics also

Will find the link and post it later...I am awaiting news on Moore Okla where my deceased  husbands family is so I am up and awaiting something good not aweful..

Will post pic in a few.

YR

by yellowrose of Texas on 21 May 2013 - 03:05

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https://plus.google.com/photos/101832815644097071043/albums/5662341641582091569/5665305381123407330?banner=pwa&gpsrc=pwrd1#photos/101832815644097071043/albums/5643676727337733937

 
                                                                                                        Cuzko at work when very young (second Pic)    link should be more pics of Cuzko at work...do not know on this computer how to make linkeable..
Go to www.germelhaus.com and many pics of Bi's at work

YR
 

by Jenni78 on 21 May 2013 - 08:05

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Thank you, YR for showing up and letting us know you're alive and well (hope you're well!)

Yes, those are bicolors. As you stated, tan on face except eye brows, tan behind ears...not a bicolor. 

by Elkoorr on 21 May 2013 - 11:05

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@Daryl..... If my memory serves me right, the father had similar markings, but not as pronounced. The mother was black with some bleed through on the legs. Good chance he would have carried black. sadly I never saw him growing up. He got hit by a truck while left with a friend as I had to go to a seminar for work. This was right after the wall came down in 1989.

by yellowrose of Texas on 21 May 2013 - 11:05

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Jenn: All is well.   Cuzko is one tough boy. Got to see him  and Myah in Santa Fe ,tx. Sunday. 
Dave Kroyer is his trainer in Hutto as Cuzko is ALL a 100% total working packaged gsd..

Jerri waited years to finally get a Bi .MelloDee breeds for total well packaged gsd

Cuzko Now
YR

by Grayson on 21 May 2013 - 17:05

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There is nothing called melanistic in dog genetics.
Sable is what collies also come in, the sable people call on GSDs is actually agouti.
The agouti gene consists of
Ay - sable
aw - agouti
at - tan points
a- recessive black.

Saddle pattern dogs are believed to have the gene "tan points" but the points has been modified by an unknown gene so the tan points spreads up, that can form a saddle, in some dogs the saddle can be so faint the tan undercolor shows through, making a "bitch stripe".
"Melanistic black tan" are just pointed dogs with their points spread up slightly, making a faded effect on the legs.
Bi-color dogs are tan pointed dog (like dobermanns), a GSD without any tan on the face has just the tan covered up with a mask, some masks on dogs are bigger than others, tan points can also become very faded so the chest spots are hard to see.
So technically if the theory is true every GSD that has saddle pattern/just minimal color on legs etc are bi-color aka tan points, saddle and creeping tan dogs are born with the usual tan point pattern but the eumelanin retreats as the dog ages.
 

by Jenni78 on 21 May 2013 - 22:05

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"Melanistic" is merely used as a descriptive to tell someone how dark a black and tan is, not a term pertaining to genetics. 

by darylehret on 21 May 2013 - 23:05

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Melanism IS a legitimate term used in Molecular Genetics.  Recessive variants of agouti cause melanism, which is also induced by dominant mutations in MC1R.


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