German Shepherd Dog > GSD cycling her seasons every 4 months (25 replies)
GSD cycling her seasons every 4 months
by ladystark on 11 August 2012 - 07:50
My 2.5 year old girl cycles every 4 months. It's been consistent for the last 2 seasons she has had.
I know that heats typically come at about 5-8 months, with 6 being average. This then makes my dog atypical and is a concern of mine.
As some may know, I've attempted to breed my girl twice. Both at about days 10, 12, and 14. Both different studes, both proven.
Both resulted to no puppies, just a false pregnancy with milk and mucus and appetite changes, but uterus was empty.
Can this be a factor, this short cycle intervals? I've read previously that it is not so uncommon for GSDs specifically to cycle at 4 or 5 months.
And does this short intervals translate to maybe a quicker progression of her heat, meaning LH peak comes sooner and therefore, she would ovulate earlier than the typical dog? If so, then this may have caused mis-timing the matings as the matings were scheduled based on a typical dog with a 21 day heat.
Hoping for your feedback as my girl is, I'm predicting, about to have her season again. Her hair is shedding already and so, in a month would be in heat.
This will be my last attempt to breed and to know if she truly is infertile--meaning if I've been mistiming my previous attempts of her matings resulting to no puppies.
I've also come prepared with ovulation pads as seen here:http://www.ovulationpads.info/
I'm to use those daily until I see the LH peak, giving me enough time to have her mated about two days later. This way I'd know maybe she's ovulating earlier or later than the typical textbook bitch.
Thanks in advance.
by vtgsd on 11 August 2012 - 09:04
|Hello. I had a bitch that would cycle every 4 months but consistently ovulated on day 21! I would highly recommend progesterone and LH testing to find the day she actually ovulates not ovulation pads at this point.|
by dogshome9 on 11 August 2012 - 09:42
I also have a female that cycles every 4 months and with the help of progesterone testing she has had 4 litters of 2, 3, 3 & last being 5 puppies.
Good luck. Progesterone testing is your best friend.
by djc on 11 August 2012 - 11:53
|What the above folks said! progesterone is a MUST! The bitch I had like this, took on day 25 of free breeding after 3 failed attempts previously. She was willing the entire heat cycle and it wasn't until I let them breed as many times as she would accept (supervised of course) that she finally took. Only got 2 out of that litter, BUT after she had her first litter, her heats went to 6 months and she had consistent 9 or 10 puppy litters after that.|
by Sheesh on 11 August 2012 - 13:15
|Absolutely do progesterone. There is no way of knowing when she ovulates otherwise.|
by NigerDeltaMann on 11 August 2012 - 15:03
|I can see from these thread that 4 months cycle nearly all the time results in fewer puppies. Mine also is a "4 monthsome+bitch", infact, she's presently on her 8th day in season and i intend start mating on the 10th day. She had 3 beautiful pups in her first mating, after 6 months+, she was again mated but she had a false pregrancy with large belly that lasted(4 months +) to her next heat. She was mated again but failed to concieve, as a result of still going through her previous false pregnancy(because her belly was still comparatively large). Now she has a normal tuck-in belly, and i hope n thinks she makes it this time. The last time, her blood dischard had a dark red, not until her 17 day that it came ligkter in colour. 4-monthsome bitches are just too difficult to understand.|
by BlackthornGSD on 11 August 2012 - 16:05
|I have had several females who cycled every 4 months. As long as there are 110 days between seasons, there should be adequate time in between seasons for the female to be capable of getting pregnant.|
I suspect you bred her too early in her cycle and I second (third?) the recommendation for progesterone testing.
by Bhaugh on 11 August 2012 - 21:45
|I would like to post this question, should dogs who have abnormal heat cycles be removed from the gene pool and breed only from females who have normal non split cycles? I had 2 females who had 4 mo and or split cycles and both ended up with thyroid problems. Neither were related and both were spayed.|
I will say that I also think that a dog that requires AI to get pregnant is also defective. IMO reproductive issues such as these weaken the gene pool.
by dogshome9 on 11 August 2012 - 23:58
No one here is talking split seasons and so far no one mentioned AI, these bitches all have normal but short cycles and if the bitch is of good enough quality then small litters are OK, after all we are only looking to breed our bitches FOR US.
My female is of exceptional quality and she has given ME some quality babies, she is now retired but I am more than happy for the puppies she gave me.
by Jenni78 on 12 August 2012 - 00:47
|Why are 4month cycles something that should be struck from the gene pool? I'm lost on that one. I would prefer it to be every 6, as every cycle wears on them, bred or not, but who am I to tell her body what is and isn't natural and normal? |
Capri and about 1/3 of her daughters cycle this way. This has a lot to do with why I have bred her more frequently in a shorter time period than I would've planned, but I think it's healthier for the reason I stated above. I've never noticed shorter cycling causing a problem, and I've bred her on different heats (ie, "middle one", etc, skipped 2, then skipped only one, etc.), and I have never used any form of testing whatsoever. I don't do progesterone testing (don't think you should need to for a natural breeding) don't do any kind of, well, ....anything like that and have never had a problem, so it doesn't always affect fertility. Her daughters have only had a "problem" in that it took their owners by surprise and once resulted in an oops litter, as he was 2mos. off and out of town when she was standing and flagging his very willing male. Zero need for human intervention in either conceiving or whelping, zero puppy loss (except for one twin that was stillborn), excellent mothering skills. I don't see the problem if the only thing "odd" is the timing. JMO.
A dog with different cycles is not the same as a dog with split heats. A dog who can't conceive by normal, natural means, sans human intervention, imo, should not be bred. I totally, 120% agree with Bhaugh.
by beetree on 12 August 2012 - 00:49
|Spoken like a professional, .|
by Jenni78 on 12 August 2012 - 00:49
|Bhaugh, as someone who has done a fair amount of research on thyroid, I would be curious as to whether they had thyroid issues first, then the heat issues. The thyroid issues maybe just weren't apparent through other symptoms earlier? Just wondering, because thyroid can serious screw w/fertility stuff. I definitely would not breed a dog w/thyroid issues; they are genetic! Just as my mom and my grandma and me! LOL|
by ladystark on 12 August 2012 - 04:52
|Well with hypothyroidism, wouldn't there be accompanying symptoms aside from either irregular heats or not cycling at all?|
Like the usual weight gain or lethargy?
I'm assuming with these additional symptoms, you can get a sense if your dog is having a thryoid problem, affecting fertility.
by trixx on 12 August 2012 - 06:33
|well i have a female that will cycle every 5 months if i dont breed her and every time i have bred her and get a tie she has had pups, so short cycles, i dont think is a problem. it could be timming or there could be something else going on. have you checked her for Brucella , vagina cultures and mycoplasma, these are your basic breeding test to check for infections, i would also take alook at her uterus to make sure it looks good . a thyroid test may also be a good idea if you are having problems. i also have a female i use to breed that had split cycles and she always got pregnant , so i say that some females not matter what there cycle, some were meant to breed and some were not . this is what i would do if this was my female.|
by trixx on 12 August 2012 - 06:36
|i would not ever breed a dog that you need to Ai, that is not a good female to use.|
by ladystark on 12 August 2012 - 07:20
Well she doesn't need A.I. in general.
It's just a precaution because I don't wanna introduce anything into her system. Pyo, other infections, at least the instrument is sterilized. The cleanliness I practice with my dogs isn't necessarily done by the stud owner so for that, I'd rather be sure.
And at least slip matings wouldn't be an issue.
by Jenni78 on 12 August 2012 - 14:07
|ladystark, as to your question about thyroid, not necessarily. I was one such case. My thyroid was so low when I was finally tested that I was in danger of going into a coma. My doctor was shocked I was even able to work. It had been dismissed as a cause of all my other symptoms because I was thin and my hair was soft and shiny. I'd had doctors even refuse to test it, telling me it couldn't be that bad, because I would be fat, my hair would be dry, and I wouldn't have conceived my son so easily, blah blah blah. So, no, it's not that cut and dried. And, what can be a "normal" level and suitable for one dog can be far too low for another. If I'm at the low end of the normal spectrum, I still feel like crap. I need my numbers to be more toward the middle before I feel somewhat human. Just something to think about. |
I'd make sure she was ok otherwise before trying too hard to breed her. You'd hate to find out afterwards that there was an underlying metabolic or other issue that should not have been reproduced. I have recently heard several sad stories (entire litters dying, very deformed pups, etc.) about AI breedings- makes you wonder if nature was trying to tell you something.
by aaykay on 12 August 2012 - 16:43
|My 13-month old had her 2nd heat cycle last month, which means she is also a 4-month cycler, unless things change for her next heat. I don't believe even for a second that she should be "removed from the gene-pool".|
by Felloffher on 12 August 2012 - 17:22
|My bitch with that goes into heat every 4 months had a litter of 9 the last time I bred her.|
by trixx on 12 August 2012 - 17:26
|there is 2 types of thyroid condition you can get the over active and or under active one, one will make you fat while the other makes you thin, i am surprise your dr did not know this, really makes me wonder about Drs, i know all this as my mothers side has alot of thyroid problems the under active one which you can get fat from. my mother past away from her thyroid not working.|