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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > When is a dog "Balanced?" (25 replies)
When is a dog "Balanced?" by Nadeem6 on 31 July 2012 - 00:52 |
| For my own education in working dogs, since i am still new, i am hoping to get some insight from those much further along than I. When working dogs how do you know when one type of aggression has been balanced with the others. If a dog has too much fear aggression and i use prey with them, how do i know when the prey has increased enough to balance the fear. If the fight drive (aggression) is high, is the dog balanced in all three now (prey, fear and fight)?? For my own dog he had more defense so we used more prey, but i really don't know how to tell if he has balanced out yet. I know i might be using different vocab than what others might use so i hope you can all figure it out and know what i am talking about.  |
Nadeem6 by Chaz Reinhold on 31 July 2012 - 01:08 |
| You should buy the new tri-tronics collar. It straps to the dogs head. When balanced, the light will be green. If the dog is totally in prey, the light turns yellow. In defense, it turns red. This will help your helper, training director and club members read your dog. Seriously? I don't refer to a balanced dog through training. Take your dog, for example. You state he is more defensive than prey driven. Not balanced. Probably never will be. You can build prey and it will help. You said he is being worked only in prey, and that is probably good if young. You can work the dog in prey the rest of his life, but when the pressure gets put on, where will he go? "Back to reality". Trust in who you train with. They see the dog everyday. If you don't trust them, move on. Don't trust morons like myself. Internet training is fun to read, but dangerous if you don't know more than the moron typing. |
Chaz Reinhold by workingdogz on 31 July 2012 - 01:23 |
Chaz is right. A dog can only be what he is  You will spend your entire competitive 'career' trying to keep him 'even', and if he is more defensive, then prey prey prey. But like Chaz said, when the shit hit's the fan, or when he is feeling 'unsure' about anything he will go back to his natural state. This type of dog can be tricky to trial, depending on how defensive he is. Any real pressure he feels will be met with defense, nature will over-ride all. The growling that usually comes hand in hand with this type of dog is always a different type than you will hear from a dog that is loaded with true fight. Just keep the pressure off, increase pressure as he shows you he is ready to take more. Don't rush him, that's about the worst you can do with a dog that's defensive. Work with his mental maturity. And make sure all four legs are the same length, then and only then you will know he is perfectly balanced |
by GSD4dogs on 31 July 2012 - 01:23 |
| Good post Chris. Nadeem, A dog is a combination of gentics and training. Good training will not compensate for poor genetics and poor training can mess up good genetics. Educate yourself on how to judge if your TD and helper know what they are doing and then trust them to help you learn who your dog is. There are many bad TDs and helpers out there who can damage your dog. |
GSD4dogs by Jenni78 on 31 July 2012 - 02:05 |
| Nadeem asked how you know when working a dog.... |
Jenni78 by Jenni78 on 31 July 2012 - 02:09 |
| Sent too soon. When I say "balanced" I don't mean anything to do with training at all- I'm talking about a natural temperamental balance, purely genetic. I'm curious to see what others mean by the word. |
by Ace952 on 31 July 2012 - 02:48 |
| Hi, When someone says "balanced" dog I make sure we first have the same definition. Balanced = prey/ defense ratio is around the same. Unbalanced = prey/defense is leaning way more in one direction than the other. If you have a puppy then you may have a chance (at increasing prey drive/developing it more) if you are trying to balance the dogs prey/defense ratio. How much can you increase it? Maybe a little. As others said, your trying to change genetics and you have your work cut out for you. I would be more concerned with the dogs nerves and its ability to handle the training & everyday life. I'd rather have a dog that is "unbalanced" (meaning prey/defense ratio) and has rock solid nerves than a "balanced" dog with bad nerves. Unbalanced isn't a bad thing, lack of nerves coupled with it IS a bad thing. Trust your trainer and their methods. If you're not sure, seek out additional eyes on the dog. Accept the dog for what he/she is and with snd not against. |
Ace952 by Nadeem6 on 31 July 2012 - 02:51 |
| Yes Jenni has it correct. I am not too concerned about my own dog. We have a great TD whom i respect very much and he is doing super with my dog. I just used my own dog as an example. This is just for me when i work the dogs and help train them (under guidance of our TD) when i do the Helper work. I dont mean genitically, i am wanting to know training wise. Just looking to educate myself when working OTHER peoples dogs. Thanks for the replies so far, they were educating to read anyway. And for the person who pm'd here is the pedigree of mine. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=703762 |
by Chaz Reinhold on 31 July 2012 - 03:03 |
| Well, if you're just talking working dogs, I don't know how to answer you. You apply pressure when tge dog is ready. You know when he is ready because you can read a dog. You also know when to step it down. Keep working dogs and pay attention on tge sidelines. If you're not clueless, you'll pick up body language, etc. easily. |
by Falkosmom on 31 July 2012 - 03:04 |
| "The growling that usually comes hand in hand with this type of dog is always a different type than you will hear from a dog that is loaded with true fight. " How is it different? |
Falkosmom by Ace952 on 31 July 2012 - 03:24 |
| I agree with Chaz, too hard to explain on the net. You will learn the more you work. Just listen and soak it up. Good luck |
by myret on 31 July 2012 - 06:29 |
| I believe that the word balanced is a dog that can handle every day things and the human world without fear and aggresive behavior . Dogs that are balanced handles everything with a good mental state both sounds , children, cars, can handle strangers and to be examined by the vet and so on |
myret by workingdogz on 31 July 2012 - 10:01 |
| Falkosmom; Not sure I can use words to describe it just right, but a dog that is loaded in defense will growl on the bite if feeling pressure, (that pressure can come in different forms to a dog, too close to a helper, new club/field etc etc). The growling will be a higher pitched type that will escalate as the dog feels more pressure. In a dog that is well balanced and has a strong fight, the dog may growl as well, but the tail is wagging ever so slightly, direct eye contact with the man, and the growl is one that is deep, and seems to come from the farthest toenails in the dog You can usuallyreally hear it when doing muzzle work. Normally the very first time someone hears it from a dog, they say 'Holy sh*t that dog sounds evil'.  Hope that makes a little sense. |
by joanro on 31 July 2012 - 12:56 |
| Excellent description, WD :) |
by workingdogz on 31 July 2012 - 13:54 |
| You got what I meant/was trying to say joanro? Excellent.  It is hard to describe, at least I findit hard to put into words. When you see it, you know it. Even a novice will notice and usually comment on it. Barking in a more defensive dog will be erratic, usually includes kind of a 'rolling' bark that almost sounds like a howl. Different body language etc. High defense dogs will most times be easily distracted and/or unsettled by a branch snapping, someone moving a chair etc. Prey dogs sound like Pit Bulls-high pitched, almost 'puppy like'. Eyes will be locked on the sleeve/toy etc. The helper can set the sleeve down in the blind and normaly walk away while the dog continues a very determined bark/hold. A dog that is balanced will come in, close usually, and barks over the sleeve, or will sometimes even push the sleeve out of the way. The helper will tell you with these type of dogs, they play it fair and square, or they know they will get bit 'for real'. Most will also tell you that the real 'good ones' make their genitalia relocate on it's on at times, even if temporarily Trying to 'balance' a dog that is one more than the other is tough, it's right up there with trying to 'maintain' a full bite on a chewy dog, or shallow biter. It's something that will be worked on for the entire competitive career of the dog. |
by joanro on 31 July 2012 - 15:11 |
| WD, your description of the growls were perfect..I could see in my mind, while reading it, individual dogs of mine and their distinctly different growls. When a person hears these differences, I would think it is primitive memory that tells them which of the dogs to "fear". Good job :) |
by fawndallas on 31 July 2012 - 19:16 |
| WD, excellent description. Thank you |
fawndallas by Jenni78 on 01 August 2012 - 15:40 |
| WD's description of a balanced dog w/higher fight fits Nadeem's dog's dam to a "T". I've had more than one helper say nearly those exact words to me. I think I even have pics of her evil eye-contact stare w/the TD. Excellent description for people to identify (or not) with. |
by GSDPACK on 01 August 2012 - 16:22 |
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GSDPACK by workingdogz on 01 August 2012 - 16:33 |
| GSDPACK pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffft f*cking 'sport dog'  one problem, my sound card must be shot, I couldn't 'hear' the growls  |
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