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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > China Imports (55 replies)
by Dog1 on 06 October 2010 - 21:15 |
| Abby, The topic is a very complex situation. Jantie is applying their usual logic where an apple is an apple and it's proven. The orange is an orange and it's proven, so the pear is a watermellon. Just look at the response to my post. Sure there are problems in the world today. Lots of problems. There are some serious problems in the US stemming from China. But are all the worlds problems caused by the sale of a dozen German dogs to China? I think not. If you recall the thread where the SV was corrupt because the show dogs all evolved from one dog. The whole thing is corrupt because the breed developed from one dog. It's the same logic. The same can be said for the breed 100 years ago. The breed is corrupt because of Horand. Yes Horand was used by all the judges, the system is fixed. No logic to the logic. If you want to discuss the show system you need to be informed of how it works and present the complete picture. Don't just spit out one corner of it and use it as an example of how the whole system works. Do I think there are not a few that work the system a little? I think there are. I also think the SV patrols themselves and not much goes unnoticed. Not only that if you're around what's going on you can avoid the BS and sometimes use situations to your advantage. |
Dog1 by Abby Normal on 06 October 2010 - 21:50 |
| Dog1 Interesting view, an apple may be an apple and it's proven, but just you try and tell that to some people who will swear it is not so. Systems are only ever corrupt because of the people (so it was not because of Horand per se) and people are usually corrupt because their is monetary gain involved. It's always as simple as that. There may not be much that goes unnoticed, but not much is done to resolve it. But that was not the topic of the thread. The thrust basically, was 'is it all about the money?'. Using the logic you refer to you could say 'if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, it probably is a duck'. |
Abby Normal by Dog1 on 07 October 2010 - 00:42 |
| Abby, The topic is about a few dogs that were sold to China. Look at the NASS website. There were some dogs sold to the US too. So what? I'll bet there were some sold to other countries too. Where's the scandal there? Look at the prices....Who's getting rich? One or two dogs make it big in a breeders lifetime and can be sold for top dollar. Hurray there's a chance for a bonus if you do well as a breeder once or twice in your lifetime. If you look at the VA dogs that are sold. It's frowned upon to sell a VA dog before it has been given it's chance to influence the breed in Germany. The breeders I have spoken with that own VA dogs have repeatedly told me they were asked about the plans for the dogs as the judges wanted assurance the VA rating would not be used as a sales tool. Take a look at the VA dogs that have left. The majority leave once they fall out of favor and their breedings slow down or they go over 5 years old. What's wrong with letting a dog go influence the breed in another country after it's made it's contribution in Germany? Look at Kevin, Yasko, etc. that came to the US. All arrived when they were done in Germany yet young enough to impact the breed here. I can point out a few examples of the SV policing itself. Wasn't there a recent case where a prominent judge was found guilty of charges brought on by SV members? Isn't there a rule where in order to go top 20 at the sieger show your dog has to be shown 3 times under different judges? Wasn't there an SV judge who's license was suspended and they recently got it back? Many examples exist. |
by Videx on 07 October 2010 - 01:20 |
| Ulli 75% facts/truth- do me a favour, never in yours or Jantie's wildest dreams. Abby - you really do take the biscuit, feigning knowledge - you know so little it embarrasses you to reveal your identity. I tire of this BS topic |
Videx by Rik on 07 October 2010 - 01:38 |
Apparently, this is not a recent development. 1932 Sieger Hassan vom Haus Schutting. "Before being exported to China, Hussan was the Sieger in 1932" Gordan Garret "History of the German Shepherd Dog" jantie, I fail to see your position on the GSD. If you think all is wrong, then why do you bother with the breed. You have absolutely no positive comments or research concerning the GSD. Despite the many accomplishments of the breed in the world. Just curious, Rick Atchley |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 07 October 2010 - 04:22 |
| Oh My GOD !!! THere are Chinese people that like dogs ! ! ! ! RUN RUN RUN RUN !!!! OH MY GOD ! ! ! ! RUN ! ! ! ! |
by Oskar1 on 07 October 2010 - 09:30 |
| It is most certainly not about a dog beeing sold to China or any other country for that matter. It is about how we managed to be at the point where we are, about health concerns, and last but not least, if one could call the revenues made in the GSD world, a "Hobby" income. More then often, it is said the promotion of said dogs are expensive, well all of us encounter these expenses. Neverless, one only needs to take the "Decknachrichten" and make a list of some dogs, how often they were used. If you then take a closer look on who owns them, then you can easily figure it out. That is what Jantie has done, and he voices his doubts, imo, this is his right. Dont get me wrong, if someone can sell a dog with profit, thats fine with me, but if these numbers go to an extrem, I just have my doubts, that this is along the lines with the satues of the SV. This far, nobody ever explained to me where the line is between a "Hobby income" and a "professional revenue income". Is turning 10 000 a year considered Hobby , or is turning 300 000 still a hobby ? That's where Jantie points to, claiming that the alledged "professional course" of breeding and selling dogs, leads to not having the well beeing of the GSD at heart, it rather apears that it is aimed at making revenue. I leave it up to you, I for my part see some things in a different light, thanks to some numbers presented by Jantie. Not that I would ever let my guard down, and just believe everything unchecked, but it sure is interesting to dig a little deeper. Ulli |
Oskar1 by susie on 07 October 2010 - 11:39 |
| Sorry I jump in this thred, normally I only shake my head, but this time... All of us know, that there are some breeders - handlers - trainers - judges - who earn their money with dogs ( and some of them make A LOT of money ) - but, WHY NOT ??? ALL of them started with ONE german shepherd, they worked a lot, spent a lot of money and some of them had success... Almost EVERY german breeder started with training, raising, showing, titling dogs - a lot more than a lot of people can tell from themselves- they are in " the business " for decades, trained and paid for years, they didn´t start with a champion... After all, it´s the SMALL breeder, who pays stud fee for the VA dogs instead of using a good stud out of his neighbourhood - and he uses the VA dog, because he too wants to make money ( better results on shows - puppies easier for sale - maybe a "winner" in the next breeding...) The " small " showline people only buy dogs out of well known kennels and parents - makes the game easier, they want fast access... HD and ED still is a BIG problem, but WHY THE HELL don´t we send the BAD results to SV ????? It´s our own fault - we don´t want to blame the parents - we don´t want to blame ourselves - maybe we want to sell the dog ???? After all it´s OUR OWN DECISION what kind of dog we buy, what kind of dog we sell, what kind of dog we breed, or how hard we train... Kind regards from Germany I forgot: The only thing I REALLY hate: A lot of these people don´t pay taxes... and that - in my personal opinion - is wrong... |
susie by Videx on 07 October 2010 - 17:46 |
| susie; an excellent and refreshing post, thank you. Far too many posters cannot comprehend the complexities of the world at the top, in anything. It is pointless even thinking they may grasp even a little. without the Internet and sites like this, they would be permanently invisible. |
by Ibrahim on 07 October 2010 - 20:13 |
| Susie, Truth smell is all over your honest post. I salute you. Ibrahim |
by Oskar1 on 08 October 2010 - 08:11 |
| Susie, you hit the nail on the head - the small time breeder basicly HAS to use these big timers in order to sell their pups. If it would be predictible how many pups would be in a litter - ah, my litter only would be 3, these I could keep for myself at any time. But there are on average 5 pups - so I will have to sell them, and believe me, you know that, you will not make money with selling 3 pups. As I stated before, I have nothing against making money, but looking at the apropiate numbers is what is making me sick. But this is not about me, it is wabout what Jantie writes & promotes. He does promote some valid points, and many, many small time breeders, which by the way are in the mayority, are getting more & more sick about being the "Kanonenfutter und Beiwerk" to fill the shows for always the same group of peopel. That's why the numbers of attendes at shows are declining, many just do what is absolutely nessecery to obtain a ranking. And again, at what point is the line crossed, according to the Statues of the SV it says : II.§ 7(5)a) Peopel that are EXCLUDED from beeing members of the SV are : Gewerbsmäßige Hundehändler - und vermittler. (rough translation: excluded are professional dogbreeders and brokers). And again, do explain to me at what point is it a buiseness venture ? I can tell you what was tried with me, the authoritys tried to put the sticker on me beeing a professional breeder because I bred 1-2 litters a year ! It took me over 1.5 years and a court date to establish why I am a Hobby breeder. It is common practise here in Germany that a breeder is considered a professional breeder by the courts if the following is present : 1. Has to have at least 3 or more breeding females. 2. Has to have a vast turn a round of different animals 3. Has to breed 3 or more litters a year 4. Has to make a lot advertisement These are the requirement for the courts to determen if one breeder is a Hobby guy or not. But I guess this is not the requirement in the SV, is it ? That is why Jantie is so upset, he believes that, because it became such a big money maschine, the mentioned healthproblems are there. Because it revolves around a limited Genepool, as too many are breeding to a declining number of studs..... it is a carussel, and it will be hard to get out of it. Jantie sees the main problem that only a small number "high profile breeders " will try to protect their income, and therefore "dictate" the genepool. That is why he points out where the money goes, at least where he thinks it goes. And he states that, last time I checked, that is his right to do so. Ulli |
by Videx on 08 October 2010 - 10:08 |
| What Jantie writes is substantially NOT the whole truth. He make much of it up. He speculates and exaggerates and it is very OBVIOUS. |
by susie on 08 October 2010 - 11:07 |
| Dear Oskar ( funny, isn´t it - we are Germans and talk English - but that´s okay because this is an international forum and it´s an international problem ), in my very personal opinion the SV should remove II.§7(5)a) because it´s not used in the same manner for ALL members and as soon as a human being has the possibility to earn money he/she will do...that´s like the attempt to prohibit professional soccer in the German soccer league... BUT -these "big players" should (must ) pay taxes like everyone else - and this needs to get controlled by the German State ( I´m no expert, I don´t know how to handle this problem yet) -a judge - neither Schutzhund nor Conformation judge - should be allowed to judge dogs out of his own kennel or even out of a male/female he bred or owns/co owns; otherwise he may be biased -there should be the law that every member of SV HAS TO x-ray hips and elbows in the age of 12 months and HAS TO send the results to SV, otherwise lack of membership -a top stud dog shouldn´t be allowed to have more than 20 studs ( international..) the year There are a lot more things coming in my mind and I know that a human, as soon as there are rules, will try to bypass (correct word?) these rules, but this would be a beginning. The other problem I see are the "small" German Shepherd lover all around the world, who never will have the knowledge and the discipline to get on top - no matter if working dog or conformation dog - but still believe that a well known kennel name guarants a top dog. People try to BUY success but both of us know that this is almost impossible. These people will ALWAYS be "Kanonenfutter", because they are not able or not willing to train like they would have to do. These people will always be disappointed, no matter WHO is leading the SV... Kind regards, Susie |
by Oskar1 on 08 October 2010 - 12:10 |
| Hallo Susie, I can reason with much that you say - even thought, many of the " high profile breeders " do not train their animals themselfs, we all know that too. How couid they, they often have an amount of animals that plain simply makes that impossible. Still, my question remains unanswered : When is breeding a professional venue or when is breeding a hobby ? I find your attempt to say the paragraph II.§7 should be removed a bit funny. So instead of sticking with, or better yet to enforce the existing rules, we just remove them - what an easy way out, and on top it would mean we encourage these doings. Your aproach regarding the mandatory x- rays, I found rather interesting. Whilst, yet again, we know how the game goes. Dogs vanish from the top of the earth, are suddenly sold to pet peopel, who are not interested in x-rays........(we all know the outs, dont we).Your idear is certainly tempting, but hardly to enforce. Anyways, really nice talking to you. Best regards Ulli David, I know you think that Jantie is indeed a moron from a diffrent planet, give it a rest. He is expressing his opinion, and at that, he is stating many facts. As I said before, take some of his numbers, research what he claims, and mybe, just maybe you too will see what he is actually trying to achieve. Besides that, if you dont agree, thats fine too, Jantie will not disrespekt you for having your own opinion. Nor will I, as I believe you contributet quite a bit to the breed. Best Regards Ulli |
by susie on 08 October 2010 - 14:31 |
| Dear Oskar, I tend to say " remove this paragraph " because in reality it´s worthless. As soon as SV interdicted more than 10 breedings the year ( an awful lot) new kennel names came up immediately, preferential called " TEAM " and others. That´s the point: These TEAMS are a machinery, they have a head, and they have a lot of paid helpers. Let them pay taxes like every other company, the thing it is. I´m not silly, I know it´s difficult, but that´s maybe the only way. When is breeding a professional venue or when is breeding a hobby ? 1. Has to have at least 3 or more breeding females. 2. Has to have a vast turn a round of different animals 3. Has to breed 3 or more litters a year 4. Has to make a lot advertisement That´s a very simple explanation. I know that most of the German Shepherd breeder never in their life earn money, but this could be handled about income taxes ( too much expenses, no income tax like other companies and so on ). I know that there will be people who find escapes, i know it´s not easy, but nobody wants to start because a lot of people have their advantage right now ( and that´s not only the breeders, it´s the trainers, the handlers, the brokers, the judges the kennel helpers, the decoys, the vets, and and and...) It´s difficult, I´m no lawyer, I have got the flu and can´t think well, my beloved German Shepherd is bored to death and both of us know that there are far more problems... Have a nice day - I think we would like each other Susie |
by Oskar1 on 08 October 2010 - 21:04 |
| Hey Susie, hope your flue will get better in no time ! Here is the cure : 1 part hot water 2 part whisky 1 tablespone Honey 1/2 pressed lemon This will have 2 effects : 1. You will sleep quite well ! 2. Your flue will be gone in no time ! Your explanations about when it is considered to be an professional breeding venue, is what it is considered by german authoritys. But not by the SV, You are right, at the point when they hit that margin, their sons, daughters, or wife establish a kennel name. How dare we are, to think it has anything to do with the original kennel name - no, these are individuals doing their own thing. By the way, do you have a quater for me, so I can talk to the parkingmeter for half an hour ? It really becomes boring at a point. Hope you get well soon. Best Regards Ulli |
by susie on 09 October 2010 - 10:03 |
| Dear Oskar, thanks a lot for this fantastic sounding recipe, but it´s too late for whisky, I´m on antibiotics for days now. Isn´t it amazing - almost everybody is whining, but nobody has an opinion or an idea for a betterment....nobody wants to jump in this thread...no change desirabled ??? Let´s close this thread, it´s useless - no brainstorming required ! Best regards, Susie |
by Jantie on 10 October 2010 - 17:42 |
| Yeah, a pity that people wet their pants when one starts talking business! Chinese Sieger VA-results: ＶＡ1 1001 Furbo Degli Achei，CSZ8002354 父犬：Quenn vom Loeher Weg，SZ2119344 母犬：Fenia degli Achei，CSZ8001668 ＶＡ2 1095 Dux de Intercanina，CSZ8002203 父犬：Zamp vom Thermodos，SZ2101021 母犬：Watschenka de Intercanina，SZ2164163 ＶＡ3 1039 Dax de Intercanina，CSZ8002188 父犬：Zamp vom Thermodos，SZ2101021 母犬：Watschenka de Intercanina，SZ2164163 ＶＡ4 1038 Xill aus dem Haus Zygadto，CSZ8002131 父犬：Vegas du haut Mansard，SZ2164725 母犬：Bama von der Grafenburg (Ost)，SZ2117018 ＶＡ5 1026 Gerry v. Grafenbrunn，CSZ8002320 父犬：Tyson vom Koettersbusch，SZ2175542 母犬：Lana v. Bellissimo (H)，SZ2181059 ＶＡ6 1091 Hasko von WeiSheng，CSZ47772 父犬：Giovanni vom Kapellenberg (INT)，CSZ8000937 母犬：Hasta von Weiyuan，CSZ0005581 ＶＡ7 1018 Cesso von Dossel，CSZ82001 父犬：Sam von der Grafenburg，CSZ8001724 母犬：Hanna von Dossel，CSZ89305 ＶＡ8 1098 Yumo vom Finkenschlag，CSZ8002359 父犬：Tyson vom Koettersbusch，sz2175542 母犬：Dalida vom Finkenschlag，sz2164080 ＶＡ9 1080 Zoltan vom Panonian Haus，CSZ8001970 父犬：Amigo v. Panoniansee，SZ9139907 母犬：Honda von Ropal，JR727959 ＶＡ10 1019 Xano von der Freiheit Westerholt，CSZ8002255 父犬：Kwantum vom Klostermoor，SZ2172355 母犬：Pitty von der Freiheit Westerholt，CSZ8002237 ＶＡ11 1079 Merlin vom Osterberger-Land，CSZ8002160 父犬：Nero vom Noebachtal，SZ2080775 母犬：Mirka vom Osterberger-Land，SZ2046417 ＶＡ12 1065 Pirlo von der Jahnh?he，CSZ8002137 父犬：Vegas du haut Mansard，SZ2164725 母犬：Vanny vom Haus Zieglmayer，SZ2159791 ＶＡ13 1013 Kratmosens Baroni，CSZ8002266 父犬：Zamp vom Thermodos，SZ2101021 母犬：Kratmosens Quina，DKK05883/2005 |
by Dog1 on 11 October 2010 - 06:46 |
| Wow, You've really spilled the beans now. I see your point. Just look at the VA list. They are all from one kennel and all owned and sold by one person. That person is really raking it in aren't they. Hey did you notice all the dogs were handled by German handlers too. Yep, check it out. It's really a corrupt system isn't it. And you forgot to mention that they are just importing dogs from Germany and breeding them together. Just look at the mothers of those top dogs. The're all German imports. Nothing being bred from a Chinese kennel. Those Chinese aren't even breeding their own dogs. It's all corrupt and it's the SV's fault. Wow, thanks for spilling the beans with all this insider information. |
by Videx on 11 October 2010 - 08:44 |
Dog1 wrote above: "Just look at the VA list. They are all from one kennel and all owned and sold by one person. That person is really raking it in aren't they. Hey did you notice all the dogs were handled by German handlers too. Yep, check it out. It's really a corrupt system isn't it." FOUR STATEMENTS underlined - NOT ONE OF THESE STATEMENTS ARE SUBTANTIATED (proven) Now look at the results - look at the handlers - many "chinese" looking german handlers?????????? CHINA SIEGER RESULTS http://bbs.csvclub.org/dispbbs.asp?boardid=12&Id=255464 I HOPE EVERYONE CAN SEE THE JOKE. |
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