German Shepherd Dog > When was she born? (48 replies)
by Blitzen on 13 July 2012 - 17:18
I have a different take on this ....IMO there is a big difference. Modern dogs - shorter backs, deeper chests, toplines are not flat, they drop off too soon so croups are steeper, and tail sets are most likely lower as a result. IMO the "modern" dogs lack the athletic look of the dogs of the past. They look too ponderous for me. Pasterns and rear angulation seems about the same, the modern dogs here appear to have longer upper arms which may or may not give them more reach than drive. I'm guessing the modern dogs have more rib spring that the olders dogs. It would be great to be able to see these dogs move.
by FerrumGSDs on 13 July 2012 - 17:23
|yes Mirasmon, do you see longer upper arm in the more recent dogs? what do others think? for me these more recent dogs have better shoulder.|
Susie, the lower two differ a bit more, behind one is further away so te angles differ, the bottom dog seems to have longer rear leg bones in proportion and so it would not look as high withered if the stacks were identical.
by FerrumGSDs on 13 July 2012 - 17:25
|Blitzen beat me to the upper arm topic!|
by Blitzen on 13 July 2012 - 17:35
|It's that great minds thing, Ferrum|
by susie on 13 July 2012 - 17:50
|The shoulders are better today, for sure!|
Deeper chests today ? Take a look at Marko Cellerland, born 1967 or 68
there were several lines with (very) deep chests and short backs...
The toplines haven´t been flat for decades, in some lines they are too much today, there are roached backs in some lines, but believe me, most breeders and judges work against this nonsense.
Colour changed, coat changed...
by Blitzen on 13 July 2012 - 18:31
|I always select Marko as my favorite dog of all time (judging from photos, never did see him). He has a longer loin than the modern dogs posted here, it just gives him a more athletic, balanced look - he doesn't look as ...uh...restricted, inflexible, ungainly as the more modern dogs and I think his tuck up is more pronounced too. Do they use that term in Europe? Maybe it's an AKC thing LOL.|
I want a GSD that looks like he or she could tend 24/7 in any terrain and weather. I just don't see that in most of the recent Siegerschau Va dogs I see in photos. Personally, I think a well built WL looks more like my idea of the ideal GSD with less bling. I will never make it to the BSZS, but I do get to some good sized SV shows here and IMO American breeders are producing better dogs than the German dogs I see in photos. I wonder if they will ever be able to claim their rightful place in the German show world. Tis complicated.
by susie on 13 July 2012 - 18:50
|Tuck up??? Bling???|
I hate this language barriere...why the hell don´t all owners of German Shepherds learn German?!?
In my opinion we are not this far away to each other.
The main difference ( in my personal opinion ) between the shepherds out of the sixties and the ones today is elegance.
In former days the dogs looked more squared, like older cars.
Today some dogs look like created in a wind channel, but if you take a look at the skeleton and the angulations, not much changed at all.
Think about Marko in black and red, with a fluffy shiny coat, you would be surprised.
by FerrumGSDs on 13 July 2012 - 18:51
|Marko looked harmonious, That may be the only image I have seen and he was overstretched but looked great in that image.|
I'm testing the add picture feature. anyone want to guess the bloodline?
by susie on 13 July 2012 - 19:06
|...American breeders are producing better dogs than the German dogs I see in photos|
American breeders produce wonderful dogs, not better than the Germans, but for sure not worse.
I have been in the States several times, visited several siegershows. The dogs shown in the puppy classes are of grat quality for years now, but most of them don´t become trained and titled later on, they are lost for the breed. This is the main American problem - very good breeding stock, but no development. Result: The Americans buy titled dogs from Europe, breed good puppies out of them and again the next generation is lost.
I know it´s not ALL of you, so everybody who doesn´t work this way shouldn´t feel blamed!
by Blitzen on 13 July 2012 - 19:09
|Bling = elegance . I guess I'll have to buy Rosetta Stone.|
Not a clue about the lines of that dog, Ferrum, but judging by the dress of the handler, I'm guessing it's not Jimmie and Dallas. WL x GSL?
by susie on 13 July 2012 - 19:11
|Shoulder could be Dingo...|
by FerrumGSDs on 13 July 2012 - 19:16
|What susie says is so true. It would be a dream to travel to Germany and take the pups back for titles, but the cost keeps most away from that posibility.|
by FerrumGSDs on 13 July 2012 - 19:23
This is the dog's link above, I've not met it, but it differs from the rest in it's bloodline, being longer in lower arm and giving a high wither, but I can't be sure if the handler is pushing the rear down with a knee or not. Susie, I'd love to learn german. Sometimes I place the reports into a translater in order to read the reports.
by Sunsilver on 13 July 2012 - 19:38
|(Makes Ferrum's link clickable...)|
BTW, one of the most elegant things I've seen on the PDB was a American showline herding sheep. The dog's movement was spectacular, and it looked like it could go all day. However, since the photos were not posted publically (I consider photos in the pedigree section to be public) I don't want to post them here, and I've forgotten just who the poster was, so I can't contact them for permission.
by susie on 13 July 2012 - 19:50
|This example for sure is NOT elegant, how old is he?|
He is well structured, but too much head and body. Wouldn´t use him as stud.
I don´t like this kind of head in a German, nor do I like trained males with more than 38 kilos ( how many pounds are this? ).
But it´s NOT the norm, and after all, it´s up to the breeder to choose the stud and the dam.
by Sunsilver on 13 July 2012 - 19:53
|I don't know how old the dog was when the photo was taken, but here's a link to his pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=494499 |
As I said above, I've seen many males that are similar, with these jowly 'Akita' or 'chow' type heads, which Bliizten and I both think are so ugly.
38 kg. is around 84 lbs. You multiply by 2.2 to convert.
by susie on 13 July 2012 - 20:03
|Seems to be the trend right now, you can find this kind of head in several show and working lines (here mostly old DDR blood).|
As I said before, I don´t like them.
by FerrumGSDs on 13 July 2012 - 20:06
|sunsilver, your dog looks like a kodiak bear. Dogs like that usually sell well. His structure is nice but he is certainly not elegant. Thank you making my link clickable. Susie and all, is there a list of German Dogs that do not carry the long coat gene? Because I have never known one that did not, and I checked the progeny pictures for the VA list, and I almost allways see long coats in a small percentage of the progeny.|
by susie on 13 July 2012 - 20:57
|I don´t know, if there is any list.|
The german breeders didn´t and don´t care much about longcoat genes, there seem to be some working lines to be free of this gene, but I never cared about. Coats were sold for less, now they are allowed ( new members for SV), I like there appearance, but I don´t think they should be bred.
A coated shepherd is not a good working dog ( okay, waiting for contradiction ), right now I´m proud owner of a coat, because I fell in love with his charactere, but this dog could never stay outside wet and cold for hours. He needs too long to dry. If this dog had to stay outside / herding sheep a couple of days or nights in rain and low degrees, he would become ill for sure. No "outside" coat, although he is a real long stock.
There are coats in almost every litter, why breed them? Everybody who is looking for a coat is able to get one.
Okay, that was off topic, it´s late, good night, folks.
Thanks for this interesting evening.