Search forum
Back to German Shepherd Dog
Liked top 20
ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Question: Pastern proportion (29 replies)
Question: Pastern proportion by Ibrahim on 09 July 2012 - 13:54 |
Standard says that pastern is approximately 1/3rd of the length of arm. Is it BD/AB= 1/3, or BC/AB=1/3 ? |
by Hundmutter on 09 July 2012 - 14:31 |
| Hiya Ibrahim As I've always understood it, its 1/3 distance from wrist to elbow - so 'B' to 'A'. If you think about it, this is a measurement equal to the corresponding lengths of pastern and forearm on the dog whose photo with excellent 23 degree pasterns you put up on the 'mother thread'. It doesn't make much sense to count the pastern as part of the forearm; that would be like including the hock & rear pastern in with the thigh. I think some people who breed bigger or shorter legged 'versions' of the GSD would like it to be 'D' to 'A', but to my mind that looks really unbalanced. Expect someone will disagree with me though. LoL |
Hundmutter by Ibrahim on 09 July 2012 - 14:51 |
| I agree Hundmutter that the arm is from A to B and it does not include the pastern which is from B to C. But my original question remains standing, what is the pastern length the standard talks about, is it BC (pastern bone/inclined distance), or is it BD (the vertical distance)? Is BC/AB = 1/3 or Is BD/AB = 1/3 ???? |
by EuroShepherd on 09 July 2012 - 15:53 |
Ibrahim, thank you for the compliment on the other thread :) These exact measurements, angles, etc. isn't my forte, though I do understand them. You do a very good job when it comes to mapping out the lengths and angles on pics of dogs Ibrahim. Without looking at my books (because they're buried in boxes right now) I'm just going to have to take a guess at it. Personally I THINK that it is the length of the pastern bone which is 1/3 the length of the fore arm, so BC/AB. When I visualize BD/AB it seems to me that the pastern is too short and more likely to cause a pastern that is too upright (like that yellow labrador in my post on the other thread) and has less "spring" power. |
EuroShepherd by Ibrahim on 09 July 2012 - 15:58 |
| Thanks EuroShepherd, just for clarification the line BD is imaginary and not the pastern bone itself, it represents the vertical measurement of the pastern, BC is the bone (as you said) and BC measurement represents the actual bone length. I understand what you're saying and your answer is logical, but I would like to know what other experienced have to say. And by the way I will incorporate this 1/3rd in the drawings on the other thread. Thanks again. Ibrahim |
by Nans gsd on 09 July 2012 - 16:19 |
| BC/AD and that is only approximate; will vary with different GSD's and different breeds. Personally I think that is a little long for the GSD's and will tend to get a weaker pastern the longer they are. With that said I do not want them too short either as then they can roll over like some dogs I have seen. So again that l/3 is only a guideline so people and judges have a visual measurement. Nan |
by susie on 09 July 2012 - 18:00 |
| I tend to say BC, but it doesn´t seem to be written down anywhere, the angle has to be between 20 to 22 degrees. Kind regards, Susie |
susie by Ibrahim on 09 July 2012 - 18:50 |
| Ok, the difference isn't huge between both the assumptions but it is important to know which one is the correct, I will demonstrate the difference , for a 65 cm high at withers dog and 47% deep chest the measurement from elbow to ground is 34.45 cms (53%). If the standard means by pastern length (BC) then BC= 8.7 cms and BD = 8.1 cm and arm = 26.4 cms. The 8.7 cms (BC) = 1/3rd the 26.4 cms (arm). But if the standard means by the pastern length (BD) then BC = 9.3 cms and BD = 8.6 cms and arm = 25.8 cms. The 8.6 cms (BD) = 1/3rd the 25.8 cms (arm). .jpg) |
by Ibrahim on 09 July 2012 - 19:11 |
| Drawing is now correct |
by Ibrahim on 09 July 2012 - 19:36 |
| I have checked all my dogs and neither of them qualifies the 1/3 rd whether it is the BC or the BD, they all have shorter pasterns than what the standard calls for. |
by Louis Donald on 09 July 2012 - 22:23 |
| Easy one - BC. The standard states that the pastern should be '1/3 of the length of the foreleg' and the standard is the standard, but as with many things that are quantified in dog standards it can sometimes be ambiguous or even unclear as to exactly how you measure; specifically, where do you you measure from and to. For the uninitiated it is important to know that the pastern should be measured from the carpus to the start of the toes - not the end of them. For what its worth my observation is that approximately 25% of the length of the Radius' is a good functional and proportional length for the pastern and in relation to what I said earlier about measuring, I say Radius as opposed to 'arm' or even 'foreleg' because it can be confusing for novices who will nearly always look at the Ulna in making such a determination and the difference is significant. Louis |
by Ibrahim on 10 July 2012 - 07:00 |
Just to make sure I understand the correct measurement of the pastern are these the two points where measurement should start and end ? |
by Ibrahim on 10 July 2012 - 07:28 |
Which is the correct way to measure the Radius please?  |
by Louis Donald on 10 July 2012 - 09:34 |
| First sketch is correct - imagine your hand and the fingers are cut off - the leading edge of whats left, the palm, is the end of the pastern. In the second set of radiographs the answer is B. A is pointing to the top of the ulna. The point I make 'in a measuring context' is of course - what is the definition of 'pastern' and what is the definition of 'foreleg' - in regard to the standard exactly what are you supposed to be measuring to come up with the 1/3 ??? Louis |
by Ibrahim on 10 July 2012 - 10:07 |
| I might be wrong but I always understood that fore arm is the Radius and fore leg is the (Radius + Pastern + foot pad). But I noticed that you use the term fore leg for fore arm so I am now confused. Maybe 1/3 rd is true when we ad the pad thickness to the pastern bone, and then compare it to {the distance between elbow joint (where both the Humerus and Radius meet) upto start of pastern}, like in the sketch below. Red/Green= 1/3, What do you say? Anyhow I think it is too difficlt, rather impossible for a man to measure these distances and proportions physically on a dog. .jpg) |
by Louis Donald on 11 July 2012 - 13:49 |
| Forearm is the term used to describe the part that goes from the wrist to the elbow in a human and foreleg is the equivalent for a quadruped. Two rear legs and two fore legs v's two upright legs and two forearms. The 1/3 is elbow to pastern and as you said it is a visual guide and I suspect it most likely includes the toes. One would normally make a visual assesment using the elbow as a reference point and one could say the variables and finer detail being discussed are semantics but it is interesting if you enjoy the finer detail of these things especially when it comes to measuring. Louis |
by Hundmutter on 11 July 2012 - 15:06 |
| Maybe Louis could tell us if he's referring to an Australian version of the Standard. All the translations I have to hand (including an early German one) neglect to mention the 1/3 measurement; either that or I can't see the wood for the trees. I was thinking this was a little odd, since the '1/3' gets referred to / used frequently enough, it must come from somewhere. None of the resources I've looked through (as I told you they are limited 'cos some are still in storage) discuss it in text, either - although they mostly have descriptions of the bone and the ligaments and the importance of proportion to achieving a correct gait, etc etc. And they all mention the difference between: WUSV / FCI 20 degrees UK 20-23 degrees USA 25 degrees 'from the vertical'. I guess the difference evolved from various countries changing the Standard to suit their own dogs. Or the USA Standard chooses actively to 'do its own thing' re the B to D measurement, in the face of everyone in Europe thinking it should be B to C. ? So I measured Taz, instead ! (Why think it impossible to measure ON the dog ?)* He has this set of measurements: A to B 21 cm B to C 7 cm B to D 8.6 cm Case closed ? L.  *Edited to add: OK, OK, I couldn't measure the ANGLE on the dog !!! Hehehe. |
by darylehret on 11 July 2012 - 16:21 |
| Oh, you could with a little trigonometry, ha ha. |
darylehret by darylehret on 11 July 2012 - 16:25 |
| BTW, as the hypotenuse, your B to C measurement should be longer than B to D. |
by darylehret on 11 July 2012 - 16:30 |
| Or, maybe not, because of the toes. |
Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!