German Shepherd Dog > Is Tom van't Leefdaalhof the next Troll/Timmy in sport world? (173 replies)
by darylehret on 17 July 2012 - 06:46
|I have a great grandaughter myself, and spent the better part of the weekend with another female who is linebred 3-3 on Tom. Pigmentation is dark on mine (through Ellute) and the other girl is black (Ellute and Vito) so I suppose we'll see when she has her litter. Neither female is dog aggressive at all, nor handler aggressive, neither was slow to mature, and both have less effeminate heads than some males are mentioned as having. Litter consistency is not an issue but I wouldn't view that as being due to Tom either way, it's in the structure of their pedigrees.|
When you have Tom so far back as you see in most pedigrees of today, you're bringing so much more into the breeding than just what he himself offered, even if linebred 3-3. Gathering that most breeders that utilized him should have been attempting to improve upon his faults, and garner his strengths, I can't see that Tom himself can be overly blamed or praised for all of what goes into the decendants of his line. It all comes down to breeder selection, and each branch of progeny deserves their respectful identity. Generalizations can be useful of course, just keep in mind they are not always the rule.
by ziegenfarm on 17 July 2012 - 07:37
i just want to make it clear that my 2 tom granddaughters are out of daughters of tom. he is not coming in thru the sire line, but thru the dam----to me, it makes a difference.
i would also like to mention that garak, littermate of ganda, is a fabulous dog. his first pups hit the ground a couple of months ago, but before the breeding took place, leslie contacted me to see what i thought of it. i warned her about breeding to any female that showed signs of dog aggression. even though garak is not dog aggressive, ganda is --- horribly. i felt she should be aware of it and certainly keep it in
mind when breeding.
anyway, this is where i am coming from - just so people understand my comments.
by Gustav on 17 July 2012 - 10:02
|Link has always been associated with less than masculine made heads....some can be kinda .mali looking...lol|
by Nellie on 17 July 2012 - 11:31
|I have a Tom Grand daughter on the sire line, a realy smashing dog to work, Black, nice drives, on and off switch, lives in the house, very focused on the job in hand, intensive track, natural retreive, good grips, DOG AGGRESSIVE. I was warned when she was a pup|
I also have an 8mth old male that carries Tom back in his lines .
by k9gsd78 on 17 July 2012 - 15:23
|Here is a video of a 12 week old male out of the same breeding I just whelped. He is 3-4 on Tom through Vito on the top side and Enny (Ellute's sister) on the bottom side. I don't have any video of him since he's gotten older, but I've been told that his brother is quick on the toy, full grips on the sleeve and lots of power.|
I got blacks and dark sable pups in my litter and the dam is not dog aggressive. I'm quite critical of my own pups, so it'll be interesting to see what faults I see come through this litter and if they match up with anything that has been talked about here.
by ziegenfarm on 17 July 2012 - 15:38
|near the beginning of this thread, nadeem pm'd me and asked me to explain the "issues" i was reluctant to talk about on the forum. i am probably leaving myself open for attack, but here is my response:|
and once again......i do realize that exceptions exist. ganda's litter brother, garak, is proof of that. it is like avery hill said on the last page; the ones that are good are super good and the ones that are crap are super crap. a great deal of inconsistency throughout.
i agree that it is good to talk openly about our experiences, but after being tarred and feathered so many times, i am hesitant. if someone has a very expensive imported dog that they are competing with and intend to make money with, the last thing they want is anyone bringing up any possible "issues" and especially so if you are not a sport person, because everything in their minds equates to competition and titles. you cannot even carry on conversation with these people about true working ability when they operate only on points & titles.
by Gustav on 17 July 2012 - 16:03
|PJP I think the only ones who will try to tar and feather you on these topics are the less knowledgable in these areas. I agree with everything you wrote above....THERE will always be exceptions to rule and norms. People who allow exceptions to drive their breeding choices are usually the ones with excuses for why something is lacking!!!|
Exception in itself means inconsistency!!! If a certain trait that is important to the breed is an exception in a line or dog, I will not use that dog for breeding....it is foolish to lie to myself and say Well my dog is this or that; when I know more of a certain line doesnt posess the trait.....AND THEN think using this dog is going to do anything but entrench the negatives that my dog may not posess, but is the norm for that line. Some may understand that, most breeders dont or there wouldnt be lines with blatant deficiencies and the nonuse of dogs that will correct them.
by k9gsd78 on 17 July 2012 - 16:21
good post, ziegenfarm
by ziegenfarm on 17 July 2012 - 17:45
|about 4 yrs ago another member of this forum contacted me regarding my statements about zender. this was during the time that breeding to him was all the rage. my opinion of him was not popular & not well recieved. this member had a boy that was heavily linebred on fero and i saw that as a possible saving grace - depending on inheritability. i don't bring this up just to say, "i told you so" but to underscore what i said in a previous post:|
****it is my fervent hope than one day the sport folks will realize the importance of the damline and stop breeding willeynilley to whatever males seem to be winning and competing at the moment. that is not a breeding program.
while zender did produce a few "flash in the pan" dogs, i believe that had more to do with the dam than his ability or contribution. i also believe that the only way of ensuring the kind of consistency we need is thru the dams. you are going to find huge inconsistencies in breedings that are based on winning males, points & titles.....greatly influenced by training.
by Sunsilver on 17 July 2012 - 18:19
|Gee what a coincidence! I just finished sending a PM to someone with a rant about what Bart Bellon said in an interview with Michael Ellis. He does have some very good things to say, but THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!|
Do you work bitches? Do any of the good breeders work their bitches?
No. Only males are really worked. It is like American football, a sport for the males. Some people used to work females occasionally, but if they worked well they were aberrations and did not produce themselves. The bitches for breeding are selected for their background.
•Do they test the bitches?
No. We just like a nice, friendly bitch from good parents for breeding.
This attitude totally ignores everything we have discovered about genetics in the last hundred years. The bitch contributes 50% of the genes. She is FAR FAR more than just a receptacle for the male's sperm so he can produce beautiful puppies! I just CANNOT believe this sort of thinking is still around in this day and age! No WONDER there is no consistency in breeding! Bart picks a stud with 'much too much' of the qualities he wants, because he says the breeder is fortunate if the stud passes on 30% of his qualities to the puppes. OF COURSE that's true! He's totally ignoring the other side of the equation: the female!
Misogyny is alive and well in the German Shepherd dog world!
by Gustav on 17 July 2012 - 18:41
|Good working breeding, imo,is through the strength of your female lines. I have always felt that way.....but I am sure their are people who feel just as strongly about the stud of the month.|
by GSDPACK on 17 July 2012 - 18:44
|Gustav..no, no it is the winning stud of "the event".|
by ziegenfarm on 17 July 2012 - 19:00
|because he says the breeder is fortunate if the stud passes on 30% of his qualities to the puppes|
wtf!!!???!!! sounds like he is contradicting himself & doesn't even realize it. duh!!!!
by Sunsilver on 17 July 2012 - 19:24
|And if he's chosing dogs with 'much too much', no wonder we get offspring who can't cap their drives, and are unstable!|
by darylehret on 17 July 2012 - 19:49
|Gustav, for his generation how is Sid really all that different? Popularity of the sires will always be present, and a strong sire line of continuous "greats" isn't something the breed should shy away from. Don't get me wrong, I certainly know the importance of females.|
Placements in ALL BSP 2011
Sid v h Pixner progeny: 7th, 26th, 33rd, 66th, 78th
Ellute v d Mohnweise (Tom son) progeny: 8th, 20th, 34th, 48th, 51st, 67th, 80th, 93rd
Vito v Waldwinkel (Tom son) progeny: 9th, 19th, 56th, 59th, 74th, 97th
Placements in TOP 20 WUSV 2011
Sid v h Pixner progeny: 9th
Ellute v d Mohnweise (Tom son) progeny: 6th, 19th
Vito v Waldwinkel (Tom son) progeny: 15th
by Bundishep on 17 July 2012 - 21:09
|nice stats Dary you saved me the time in showing just how well Tom is in proving to be,providing top working temperment with doing very well at high level trials,while i would disagree with some of the negitive opinions given on Tom I would agree with the one statement , not to bring two dog aggressive dogs together for breeding,wether it be Tom genes or otherwise,and same with the Bomber thread never bring 2 dogs together for breeding that both of them have reputation of biting the trainer in the thigh during training.|
by Gustav on 18 July 2012 - 01:00
|@ Darylehret.....Sid isn't a female!.....Sid has to be complimented by the female line just like any other dog in my opinion.|
by darylehret on 18 July 2012 - 03:29
|Well then, if you want nerve drive and grips to be consistent in your breeding with your Ellute grandson, then I suppose you're not counting on it all coming from the Sid side of the pedigree, as it seemed you were infering earlier.|
by Gustav on 18 July 2012 - 11:29
|I look for nerve to come from all four quadrants of the pedigree....I KNOW all four quadrants so as to not rely on any single parent for basic traits. Grips are overrated to me in terms of breeding for....I believe if the dog is solid, hard, and stable, with good fight in them... The rest will take care of itself. Finally, I look at Sid or any other stud through who they are made up of as much as I do the actual dog....you gave those statistics of similarity of three males at the BSP, WUSV; I see all three of them dogs differently in terms of what they represent to me, and don't even consider what they do in any trial for breeding purposes. But that's me....to some those statistics are valuable and that is cool to. Trials are too much about training these days 4 me to ever use them for breeding decisions anymore....again that just me.|
by judron55 on 18 July 2012 - 12:13
|Trials are too much about training these days 4 me to ever use them for breeding decisions anymore....again that just me.|
...and me too:-) Training has overtaken good breeding...one reason for the lack of natural aggression...