German Shepherd Dog > Is Tom van't Leefdaalhof the next Troll/Timmy in sport world? (173 replies)
by k9gsd78 on 10 July 2012 - 22:16
|I hope no one takes this the wrong way... I do not want to detract from smith's dog in any way. He may be the epitome of what a German shepherd ought to be. I cannot know because I have never seen the dog in real life situations. And I do not just mean real life "protection" scenarios.|
The things that make a "real GSD" cannot be found in trial scores or even, ultimately, on a schutzhund field. Many people forget that schutzhund was originally designed as a breed test... not as a sport or competition. Not to say that it isn't a great thing to participate in with your dog, as long as you see it for what it is and don't judge the total dog based on his "performance".
"That word 'SPORT' always means competition for the highest, that is true, but this competition reaches its high-water mark in 'Exhibitions', which, just because they demand no real capabilities lead people only too easily astray." - Max von Stephanitz
Those that are wanting "real GSDs" need to remember that v. Stephanitz defined the characteristics of the shepherd as : "joy in work, devotion to duty and to master, mistrust and sharpness against strange and irregular things, docility & obedience, teachableness & quickness to understand, and in addition, immunity to weather, uncommonly acute senses with gifts for retrieving and seeking, assisted by his special gait by which he leaves nothing unnoticed and unsought."
Sometimes, I wonder if there is too much training involved in the sport of schutzhund, to the point that it detracts from the dog's true abilities. Is a dog retrieving because he really has a "gift for retrieving" or because his trainer used a force retrieve method to pass the retrieve at a trial? Is a dog really seeking during a blind search or just going through the patterns he was taught?
Just thinking out loud..
by OGBS on 10 July 2012 - 22:43
I'll take it the wrong way for you and please don't be offended.
The discussion in this thread is about Tom van't Leefdaalhof and what his offspring have produced over time. Others have expounded on that with what they like and don't like about him and then also about other stud dogs.
Your post is about whether Shutzhund/IPO has any merit.
Two different discussions and yours should probably be a different thread entirely.
by k9gsd78 on 10 July 2012 - 23:12
|No offense taken... I just think you're wrong about the fact that this does not belong in the same discussion. You seem to have missed the whole point of my post.|
The discussion had turned to whether a particular stud was producing "real GSDs" and dogs that are "twice the dog" of other studs. How can we discuss that without knowing what those terms mean? In order to find out what a "real GSD" should be and how to measure whether a dog is "twice the dog" of another dog you need to have a standard to measure against. Where better to find that standard than quotes from Max von Stephanitz himself?
You need to keep perspective to have a quality discussion. Sure, we can throw terms out there and make ourselves feel good about our dogs, but unless everyone understands what each other is talking about, it is only vain talk and really does nothing to enhance knowledge or better the breed.
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 00:19
|Actually the discussion of Tom, I wanted was in the context of being and producing sport dogs. If you look at 10 pedigrees of ntop dogs at WUSV or Bundesseigerprufund, I'd dare say that eight would have Troll or Timmy somewhere.( Unless dog is all Czech lines and even those lines are being saturated with these two). So I'm curious if 5 to 10 years from now will Tom be in a similar position.|
by Gusmanda on 11 July 2012 - 01:22
|Just checked the top 11 out of curiosity (could not find Geisha Egidius, #8), all of them have either Troll or Tim, wonder whether there are any participating dogs that do not have Fero.|
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 02:22
|@Gusmanda...I don't make this stuff up, though some would like to think so to keep from dealing with reality. Lol|
by smith on 11 July 2012 - 03:11
|i just like mixing things up in these threads lol. Most people have their own opinion on which bloodlines treat their needs or wants. Its just a opinion. I prefer more serious dogs with alot of courage , you know the kind that bite without a sleeve or if you give them a hard correction they will let you know about it. At the same time the dog has to have a great nerves and be social. So that being said Ive owned/worked progeny out of the dogs mentioned above and again JMO the dogs ive seen and worked out of lasco and chico are "TWICE THE DOG"! because they fit my needs and wants and like that style of dog the bloodline offers! To each their own! Some people may think their showline is twice the dog lol|
by Chaz Reinhold on 11 July 2012 - 03:46
by smith on 11 July 2012 - 03:55
Chaz you are cool as a fan bro
by k9gsd78 on 11 July 2012 - 05:05
|Thanks for the additional info, smith. I was curious because the one Chicco son that I knew personally was a fantastic all around dog... both on and off the field. Solid, steady, with a lot of heart. He was out of a different dam than Lasco though.|
by cage on 11 July 2012 - 08:43
|Gusmanda - here is Geischa´s pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=735696 .|
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 10:45
|Lookin at Geisha's pedigree that makes all of them have Troll/Timmy. @Smith...everyone knows I like dogs with potential to do LE work, that is why I said I always wanted some Chicco blood in my dogs....he was and produced a more serious dog.|
by smith on 11 July 2012 - 10:49
|From what I understand lasco may have been more serious and produced better then Chicco ? I never met either dog in person but have talked to people that have .|
by judron55 on 11 July 2012 - 10:55
|I'd like to hear more about the dams of these dogs sired by Chicco and Lasco? I've seen a few Chicco progeny I've liked....!|
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 17:59
|I remember Butch Henderson had a real nice Chicco son that he trailed at our club about ten years ago. Real nice dog!|
by Bundishep on 12 July 2012 - 19:18
|K9gsd78 you made a good point with trials,while i like sch and i thinks its much more of a help to the breed than a hurt,how many out there that compete have a true natural retreive drive instead of someone just giving them a forced retreive training, some you can kind of tell they do it just because they have to and others it looks like they enjoy doing the retreive portion and they would get that dumbbell any place any time all the time in a hole in a tree in the water buried in the snow.etc thats the type of drive i want to breed in my dogs.|
by judron55 on 13 July 2012 - 10:56
|I have a male that has a natural retrieve..never forced and always ready....will search for an object without simulation from handler....not an easy trait to find....he is 4-5 Ira Korbelbach...I am placing a pup with a K9 officer today that has been retrieving a dumbbell since 5 weeks...he is now 8 months and loves the dumbbell as much as any of his other toys....the pup is 5-5 Timmy...5-5 Arek vom Stoffelblick.|
by loujolly on 13 July 2012 - 14:04
|In my experience (and obviously this is a gross generalization!) Tom lines show nice grips, barking and excellent tracking abilities. However, long coats, umbilical hernias and some handler soft dogs. The youngsters always look great on youtube so it is easy to sell that line. Plus there are a lot of those nice dark sables that everyone likes! I have also heard that the Orry line produces excellent herding instincts.|
From Lasco I have seen quite a few very high prey, solid temperament but not enough fight for me so I would want to see some good aggression resources in the pedigree too.
by cphudson on 13 July 2012 - 17:50
|I really like Tom added into a pedigree & seen some really nice dogs for both police, sport & family protection. They seem to have strong; grips, b&h, possessive, pack drive, willingness to please, herding instinct,|
devotion, & confidence. Depending on how you train the higher pack drive can cause handler conflict / more sensitive to corrections. Obedience is since but I wouldn't say they tend to be flashy.
But Tom does often lighten coat color, decrease size, add coat, etc.. if not mixed with lines that will strength in this area. Others issues listed prior on another post also. I've heard of ED but have not seen it.
The Tom offspring we've imported all had great natural protective instincts with family. They are generally not openly social dogs with strangers. I've been pleased with the ones I've seen.
We purchased a Elute grand daughter, through Bongo Vikar that I just love. She is the most protective dog we've ever owned in over 25 years. She will even defend me against being hit by snow balls. LOL
But she is the biggest mush with her family & extremely devoted. She is safe in public but not the kind of dog you bring to a dog park. Her dam line is a mix of DDR through Manto & Lord mix with Czech.
It's taking us longer than expected to earn her titles for her, because she is really more of a PPD / police type dog than a sport dog. She is train as a PPD dog & is fantastic at it.
You already see many of the top dogs in the USA hav Tom in their pedigrees, many more young dogs over seas have Tom in their pedigrees too. I think Tom / Orry will be seen in many of the future WL's.
I own a Luna Westfalensproß (Lasco sister) grand son through Falko vom Wolfsblick & dam line tightly line bred on V Dasty vom Gries. He is one of the greatest dogs we've ever been blessed to own.
Natural tracking ability, very high willingness to please, always bits full & extremely hard, natural retriever, but his B&H is something to behold. The power & spirit you can almost feel.
He has both high prey & defensive drives, also high fighting drive. It's almost comical because he is so calm & steady off the field, people normally laugh when they see us before trail / training if thy don't know him.
He'll remain calm & serious through tracking, then get really happy & more lively in obedience. But then it's like a different dog when it's time to do protection.
He is the same way at home always reliable in public, even does therapy work. He is gentle with children to the point they can literally give him a treat them open his mouth & take it back.
Kids enjoy pretending to ride him, dress him up, play vet & he must be examined from head to toe, etc. But when we go out he is always viligent on his surrounds & protecting his family.
My husband often takes him to work with him as his PPD dog, where he had to do real protection on more than one occasion.
He was being prepared for national level sport but was injured & still in rehab. We were hoping he would be ready for this trail reason this year, but it's looking more like a career ending injury.
It's a real shame, but we still love him dearly. He has produced many young dogs working in service, guide, police, SAR, & being trained for herding + sport too.
I love the lines behind him & like that he provides a good alternative to Fero / Troll / Timmy / Yoschy / Nick / Orry.
by Gustav on 13 July 2012 - 20:14
|Great post and great information Cphudson....this is kinda of post I was envisioning when I started the thread....Thx!|