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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members (159 replies)
by darylehret on 29 June 2012 - 16:47 |
| My, aren't you starting to sound like a broken record! Like I said, whether or not I test has nothing to do with the validity of the DM test. My reputation IS stellar among my clients, and I don't twist the truth as YOU have in this particular thread. YOU obviously have some problem with me, because I simply don't agree with your wreckless statements. |
darylehret by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 17:18 |
 Whatever...have a nice day. |
Blitzen by marjorie on 29 June 2012 - 19:37 |
| ----> Daryl, what's the big deal about a test that only costs $65 and may help to elminate DM from the breed? It IS a big deal because the test has already proven to be flawed in German Shepherd Dogs They have already admitted, in writing, that in certain breeds the type of DM the breed gets is not caused by the SOD1. Therefire, all it does is give a false sense of security to breeders, who end up cutting dogs from an already small gene pool that is already subdivided where people breed amongst that particular subdivision. That is downright harmful to the breed. It will shrink an already small gene pool, for no valid reason! It allows breeders to advertise DM free lines when we KNOW that is not the case. Progeny of tested dogs get an automatic clear, without any generational follow up. If the dogs that tested clear for DM, who subsequently died frmo DM, as proven upon necropsy, were bred, people who purchased pups from that breeding would have been blindsided. Better the $65 go research for a test specifically developed for THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG, that is accurate! The present test has proven to be innacurate for our breed, and therefore, it is useless and can only cause harm. THAT is the BIG DEAL! Should I duck, now?
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
marjorie by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 19:42 |
| Marj, I don't know one GSD breeder who has cut any dogs from a breeding program due to the results of the test. |
by beetree on 29 June 2012 - 19:47 |
| Marjorie, I applaud you on looking into the U of FL foundation to donate funds. That they apparently ignored you is probably because they aren't set up to take nickle and dime donations, that would legally have to be acknowledged. I bet if you were to collect funds in a significant amount for a donation you would have more success. The thing is, whomever donated to you would not get a tax break unless you set yourself up as a 501 (c) 3 organization with the purpose to fund GSD research. |
beetree by Gustav on 29 June 2012 - 22:21 |
| But Blitzen, if dogs are not going to be cut from breeding purposes as result of test, then what's the practical advantage of the testing? Marjorie makes very compelling sense in what she writes. Very compelling. I am one to look at information logically and try to make the best decisions possible. Both sides of testing at this point of what the test reveals can certainly be understood. |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 00:13 |
| --- > That they apparently ignored you is probably because they aren't set up to take nickle and dime donations, that would legally have to be acknowledged That shouldnt be difficult for them, Beetree, because they will have paypal records.! Paypal doesnt charge a fee for chartities, so they wont lose out there. The way paypal is set up, a receipt could be generated where it is acknowledged that the contribution is a tax deductible contribution. It is just the style of the U of Fla to treat animal researchers as a distant cousin to their medical dept. They have one of the most talented researchers and they are wasting him. He has to leave there! Maybe I will start a petition asking him to do just that... LOL! I am a loser whenever it comes to math or financials so me setting up and running a 501c3 would be disasterous. I know my limitations. I graduated college with honors but had to take remedial math course that met 3 x weekly in order to graduate, my math was was bad. My math was so horrendous they had to ink my score in, in the below average section, it was so low. I have a complete mental block when it comes to math.I am good with anything creative but when it comes to bookkeeping and math, frankly put, I suck :( I dont even know anyone who could be on a board of directors. I have to stick to what I can do and just do that as well as I can do, and that is to try to educate people about DM. That I understand backwards and forwards. That being said, there is no good reason why the U of Fla should not be cooperating. Perhaps a petition from[people who would be willing to donate if a paypal account would be set up would help them to see the light. They have everything in place. They have to be more open minded about the importance of their veterinary dept, and work with them. That I will try to do better, on that score, as that is just the most practical way to proceed.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 00:16 |
| --- >Marj, I don't know one GSD breeder who has cut any dogs from a breeding program due to the results of the test. But you dont know all the breeders in the dog world :( |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 00:55 |
OK- I will admit to speaking with the OFA about changing the wording, in relation to the OFA DM DNA test on their website. I know a lawyer who is very pro animal health. I spoke with him after I found out that carriers and clear GSDS died from DM. He asked me if the OFA was informed of the cases, and I told him I had informed them of the cases, and several people whose dogs died from DM also called and submitted their necropsies to Dr Coates. The lawyer said it would be fraudulent representation to claim that the test was accurate for GSDS, or not admit, on the site, that they had knowledge of clears and carriers developing DM. I pointed him to the wording on the OFA website in relation to the test. He offered to file a class action lawsuit because the legal definition of fraudulent representation is:
---> (1)that the party making the statement was aware that it is false or disregards the possibility of it being false;
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by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 01:28 |
| Would anyone be willing to help me get the U of Fla to set up a paypal account so people could donate a few dollars at a time for DM research? They might be able to ignore ONE person, but they wouldnt be able to ignore a slew of requests. If anyone is willing to help, please PM me, and I will give you the contact info. They never answer their phone- you will always get a recording, but if they are flooded with phone messages or emails, they might change their tune. Please- I need your help- not only for me, but for all of our beloved fur friends who have lost their lives to DM, and for those who will lose their lives to DM. Obviously, people reading this thread care about DM. It DOES take a village ot get things done! We could really do something good here, as there are so many people on this forum. You can cross post, and if they get enough calls, perhaps they will realize it will be worthwhile for them or they will do it just to shut us up! I KNOW we can get this done if we all work together. It is absolutely NOT true that ONE person can make a difference. However, an army can make all the difference in the world. For those of you who have lost a dog to DM, I beg you to help me make this wish/project a reality. For those of you who have been lucky, and havent had to walk the DM path, do it because you have been lucky, or because God forbid, one day you may find yourselves on the same path and will wish you had. With the efficacy of the DM Flash Test being the same as the rule in tests ( or rule out tests, if you will) we can get some answers. German Shepherd Myelopathy research cannot come to a halt, and we need research that we KNOW is applicable to OUR breed. We already know per the the OFA website that in certain breeds, there are other causes of the disease. OUR breed is that *in certain breed*!!! Please help me help our dogs. I hope I wake up tomorrow with my inbox jammed with requests to help.. I also hope that tomorrow morning I will wake up looking like Angelina Jolie, but there may be a better chance of my inbox being flooded. well, maybe... Hope springs eternal... Please help me to keep my promise to Jack Flash and Missie T. I am not getting any younger and I promised both Jack Flash and Missie T, as they closed their eyes for the last time, I would see the disease that took them from me laid to rest, as it took them from me. Beetree- we have had our disagreements, but thanks for lighting a fire under my butt...
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 02:29 |
| -- > Marj, I don't know one GSD breeder who has cut any dogs from a breeding program due to the results of the test. Have you heard of anyone advertising at risk studs or bitches? Would you breed to a dog who tested at risk for DM? If your answer is no, you ARE basically cutting that stud out of the gene pool and perhaps allowing other horrid diseases to be concentrated, without proof the test is, indeed, accurate. |
by Blitzen on 30 June 2012 - 02:50 |
| Yes, I would breed to an at risk. IT'S NOT A TEST OF ELIMINATION. No, I don't know all the breeders in the world, do you? I would invite any who have eliminated dogs based soley on the Coates DNA test to respond. |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 03:02 |
| Would you advertise your at risk dog, if you had one? |
by Blitzen on 30 June 2012 - 03:06 |
Gustav, the goal is simply to not produce anymore at risks. No dog needs to be eliminated in order to do that. It's a simple recessive gene. |
by Blitzen on 30 June 2012 - 03:07 |
Of course I'd say a dog tested at risk if I were advertising it for breeding. |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 03:10 |
| I have to ask- if you truly believe in this test, WHY would you breed to an*at risk* dog or a carrier???? Isnt that hypocritical? Its like being slightly pregnant- one cannot be slightly pregnant- one either is, or one is not...If you believe this test is accurate, what would possess you to breed to an at risk dog or a carrier, both of which, according to the OFA DNA test, could pass along this disease? Saying its a *tool* is a red herring- what good is a tool if it isnt accurate, and if it IS accurate, why would you chance passing along DM? I am not trying to be argumentative- I am TRULY trying to understand... If one believes the test is worthwhile and valid, why ignore the results? Ignoring the results says you do not believe in it or that you dont care- it has to be one or the other..
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by Blitzen on 30 June 2012 - 03:24 |
| I don't consider breeding to an at risk as being hypocritical or ignoring the results. Marj, it is clear that you have no use for the Coates test and that's OK, but I think it's better than nothing and plan to utilize the results. Could we just agee to disagree and move on please? |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 03:37 |
| You know what keeps going through my mind, as I think about this? Remember the song that goes Just what makes that little old ant Think he'll move that rubber tree plant Anyone knows an ant, cant Move a rubber tree plant But he's got high hopes, he's got high hopes He's got high apple pie, in the sky hopes So any time your gettin low Stead of lettin go Just remember that ant Oops there goes another rubber tree plant Sadly, high hopes or high apple pie in the sky hopes wont move the DM rubber tree plant :( A pin is a tool, as is an ax. If you want to cut down a tree, a pin wont do it. If you try to cut down a tree with a pin, you will fail. If you want to cut down that tree, you better use the right tool or you wont be successful. If you believe the test is accurate, why would you disregard the results? If you disregard the results, that means you dont have a lot of faith in it. If you dont have enpugh faith in it, then what good does it do to test? I am seriously having a problem finding the logic in it. If you had the money to purchase an ax to cut down a tree, why would you purchase a pin to try to accomplsih that task?
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by hexe on 30 June 2012 - 03:38 |
| Marjorie, just because there have been some dogs that were N/N or carrier status on the OFA test went on to develop DM later does NOT automatically completely invalidate the test. It identifies the fact that additional work is needed to determine what else may influence the development of the diseases that are collectively termed Degenerative Myelopathy--because I think it's painfully evident that there is MORE than one type of neurologic disorder that strips the myelin from the nerves and affects the GSD. Just as Dr. Clemmons' test wasn't yet 100% predictive, neither is the OFA test--but both have their place in making breeding decisions, IMO. Would I breed a dog that had tested at risk? Possibly...because that's not the sole yardstick by which to measure a potential breeding candidate. Would I breed a dog that tested 'at risk' to another 'at risk'? No, I wouldn't pair them up, but I would breed either or both of them to a dog that tested clear. Would I want a puppy from a parent who had an 'at risk' test result? If the other parent had tested clear, then without question; if the other parent was listed as a carrier, then again, it's back to possibly, because I'd need to consider what else was being brought to the table with the breeding overall. I believe there's a place for BOTH tests, frankly. There are a number of diseases that have multiple test options available, and protocols have subsequently developed as to how to best use the different types of test to get the highest degree of confidence in the results. If it's correct that one or more forms of DM is at its base a predisposition due to genetics, but needs an additional push from some other trigger--a taxing of the immune system by something in the environment, for example--then we're going to NEED tests that assess different points of reference. One test needn't--and SHOULDN'T--necessitate the demise or derision of another, when the goal is ultimately to try and predict whether another dog and another owner will have to go through the firewalking that is DM. I know you've been at the forefront of getting people educated as to what the disease is, and what it does, and without your involvement in the program, the work done at UFla would have moved far more slowly and with far less support...so let's figure out how to get the money to go directly to that research, and make it possible for Dr. Clemmons and his crew to gain more ground toward better tests and better treatments. For example, it was mentioned on here recently that George Foreman has long been heavily involved in the German-line GSDs; has anyone approached him to see if he would help support the continued work by Dr. Clemmons? This shouldn't be, and doesn't have to be, a competition between tests and between researchers--it has to be about the dogs, and just the dogs. Without them, there's no point in the research or the testing anyway. |
by marjorie on 30 June 2012 - 03:42 |
| --- > Could we just agee to disagree and move on please? I truly want to understand! Is that a crime? I want to understand WHY a test that has been proven wrong, for our breed, is so embraced... Is that so hard to comprehend? Yes, of course we can agree to disagree, but I want to know the reasoning behind this. People dont agree on everything all the time and they never have- Ijust want to understand, thats all. Marjorie http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
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