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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members (159 replies)
by marjorie on 28 June 2012 - 23:32 |
| Beetree writes: Just the facts, folks. It seems there are still some who have never seen this disease, and need proof that dogs do die from it, and it is not confined to a type. At the risk of repeating ourselves, (those of us with dead dogs due to DM), I am wanting to create a list. Seems that is what a few people keep wanting me to do, so here it is. You can follow my lead, or create your own catagories, I don't care. I just want some statistics for the statistic people to play with. Thanks all for your participation in my quest for your facts. Bee Tree- please note: There is the German Shepherd Breed Betterment Registry, which is a health database for German Shepherds I created. If you go to the summary analysis page and click on Degenerative Myelopathy in health problems and also in cause of death, it will bring up all the names of the dogs entered upon the GSDBBR that have developed or died from DM along with their pedigrees, along with questionnaire's that seek to gather information about factors that are considered causal factors for the development not only of DM, but all disease. Each of the entered dogs names are clickable, and to bring up the pedigree, just click on the name of the dog on the left side, which is clickable. This can also be done for other diseases. One just needs to click on the disease in which they are interested, to bring up entered dogs with the partcular condition you are looking at. This has been in place for years now, and the link has always been right under my signature! If the sire or dam of the dog has also been entered upon the GSDBBR, their name in the affected dogs pedigree will also be clickable. I would think it would be better to have all the info in ONE place, rather than scattered about the net. The German Shepherd Breed Betterment Registry http://www.gsdbbr.org Years ago, I also created a DM Pedigree Board. There are a few pages of pedigrees of DM dogs, entered by their owners, years ago. Of course, its hardly utilized but if you wish to have a look, it is still up http://thegermanshepherddogdegenerativemyelopathypedigreeboard80626.yuku.com/ I have long been trying to gather pedigree info on DM. Perhaps people might wish to help by entering info on the GSDBBR, which is the latest effort to gain info, using a questionnaire that covers many contributing factors to DM and other diseases. Heavens gate is another health database for GSDS and their is lots of DM info on there, as well. That one doesnt require the dog to be a registered GSD, so that covers rescues and adopted dogs, as well as pedigreed GSDS http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Cant say I havent tried to gather DM info. Now, if only people were ready to cooperate, the tools are all in place and have been for years...
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
marjorie by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 00:09 |
| Just test your dogs and and prove that your lines are free of the gene. What does it matter if there are no confirmed carriers or at risks in your dog's pedigree? If they haven't been tested, how would you know? Do we not xray hips and elbows unless our dogs have relatives that are lame? I'd guess than the majority of at risks are not listed on the OFA site anyway. Hudson has also pointed out that most at risks don't even include sires, dams or registration information. I get the impression that some here have assumed their dogs cannot be at risks or carriers because they think their lines are exempt from carrying the DM factor. If that is so, then their DNA would be of a lot of interest to the DM researchers. Given every GSD alive today goes back to the same foundation dogs, if there is a string of exempt dogs, then the researchers could try to find when the gene mutated and why. Pedigrees are only of academic interest, it's the gene pool of the individual dog that matters. The only significance of a pedigree is that a dog sired by an at risk can only be an at risk or a carrier. Selective breeding can eliminate a simple recessive in 2 generations; at risks and carriers can be used for breeding. It is not a test of elimination, it is a test to provide breeders with one more tool to use when planning a breeding. For the first years this test was available most dogs tested were from ASL's. I don't think many GSD/WL breeders even knew about this test until we started to talk about it here. |
Blitzen by darylehret on 29 June 2012 - 00:46 |
The way I see it, testing the dog ONLY proves that the dog was tested.
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darylehret by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 00:57 |
Daryl you have more excuses for not health testing, xraying, or titling your dogs than can be counted on both hands. Breed on.......................... |
by darylehret on 29 June 2012 - 01:19 |
| You're just a blind believer in something that doesn't work. When on ALL accounts the test proves NOTHING, I'll have to listen to common sense, rather than the series of wild and unfounded statements you've concocted. Attacking me won't make the test any more credible, either. |
by hexe on 29 June 2012 - 01:39 |
| daryl, we get it. You don't have any use for testing. Why bother even entering the discussion, then? Clearly, you have nothing of any value to contribute, since you don't believe in health and soundness screenings and testings--there's no need for you to keep chiming in, 'prove it-prove it-prove it' ad nauseum. |
by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 02:01 |
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by marjorie on 29 June 2012 - 02:08 |
| --- > You're just a blind believer in something that doesn't work. Have to say I agree, in relation to this particular test, but then again, anyone who knows me knows I have zero faith in that test. Having had 2 dogs succumb to DM, if I ever considered owning another GSD, which I will NEVER do as much as I love the breed, an at risk designation wouldnt stop me from purchasing the dog- thats how little faith I have in the test. I will now run for cover... LOL! Dr Clemmons site has moved- its new url is http://dog2doc.com/neuro/DM_Web/DMofGS.htm
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by marjorie on 29 June 2012 - 02:13 |
| --- > I have worked in the veterinary field since 1986 and I have owned and been associated with GSD's since 1977 and have never seen heard or heard of a dog with DM . .JPG) Now you have- meet Missie T... I lost her in April to DM. Missie T, not a day goes by that I do not think of you and hold you close in my heart.... I miss you more than any words could ever say... |
by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 02:20 |
She was so beautiful. I lost my heart GSD to breast cancer last year and remembering her still brings me to my knees. |
by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 02:22 |
| But would you buy a puppy from parents with no hip or elbow xrays or any health tests whatsoever? |
by hunger4justice on 29 June 2012 - 03:00 |
| My dog, Commander, had DM with all the classic signs and nothing on any spinal showing a structural problem, however he was walking until 13, and he died of hemagisarcoma as well. This was before the genetic testing became available so I don't blame the breeder. Also a truly amazing dog so of you would ask me would I get him again, knowing about the DM, I would still say yes and consider myself lucky. Marjoe. I feel for you more than you know, but the pain is still raw. I think in time you will see that you would not trade a single second of the good years you had and as hard as it is to watch a proud athlete unable to walk, there were many years, many good years and you were blessed, like I was. |
hunger4justice by hexe on 29 June 2012 - 03:20 |
| Before any form of a test existed, there was little that could be done to obtain a definitive diagnosis in a living dog; MRIs or contrast radiography of the spinal cord are both invasive, expensive, and a significant risk in the healthiest of dogs, let alone a dog showing the clinical signs associated with DM. When I discussed the condition with Dr. Clemmons after he'd viewed the video of my old girl, Jessie, one of the points he made was that a positive response to the treatment protocol (as it existed then--it was very basic at that time) was strong support for the diagnosis, as there are no other known conditions that respond to the treatment...though he also cautioned that a failure to respond was not sufficient to rule out the disorder, as the treatment protocol doesn't always interrupt the progression of the disease. That really isn't unusal, in human or veterinary medicine...sometimes empirical evidence is all we get. |
by marjorie on 29 June 2012 - 03:25 |
| -- > She was so beautiful. I lost my heart GSD to breast cancer last year and remembering her still brings me to my knees. Thanks, Sue.. I lost one to that, also :( There is just no good way to lose a well loved fur friend....They all have something that is uniquely special to them, dont they...
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by hexe on 29 June 2012 - 03:37 |
The video Dr. Clemmons and his department put together that I referred to previously, which includes footage of my dog in the section that show samples of dogs which are at the moderate stage of the disorder's progression, is now found at this URL: |
by marjorie on 29 June 2012 - 03:39 |
| --- > But would you buy a puppy from parents with no hip or elbow xrays or any health tests whatsoever? No, I would not! That being said, Casey James was OFA in almost all of the 6 generations of his pedigree, both hips and elbows. Sire and dam were both ofa hips and elbows. However, 4 out of the 6 in his litter that were tested, failed their elbow OFA, as did Casey James. I did list his failed elbows on the OFA. I found it very odd that the OFA statistics say that --- >Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED ---- >Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED
---- >Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by marjorie on 29 June 2012 - 04:03 |
| When the DM Flash Test from Dr C was in existence, a positive result in a dog showing classic signs of DM was found to have the same efficacy as all the rule in tests. Dr C determined that, via necropsies, when he was researching. Missie T had the rule in tests and she also had a positive Flash Test. She did go into remission for 5 years on his program before the disease began to progress again, probably because I know so much about DM that I caught it long before another would have caught it. When the disease came back, it took another 1 1/2 years before she went down. However, on his experimental program she did get up and walk again, albeit it not well. She still dragged her feet but she was able to get herself up and walk a few steps and stand to drink some water or go from one room to another. Another person who had a DM dog contacted me, afer I lost Missie T ( I didnt know her) and she told me the same thing happened with her dog, who was in the experimental program. The dog was able to get up and walk again- wobbly, but was able to move around. Sadly, the last of the research funds have been used up and this treatment seemed to hold some promise. Hungerforjustice, Yes, I would sell my soul to the devil to have Missie T back and yes, I would choose her all over again, even if I knew she would get DM again. However, twice burned is enough for me. I dont blame her breeder anymore than I blamed the breeder of Jack Flash. Its not ONE or TWO breeders who can make a difference- its the masses of breeders who keep secrets that will destroy this breed. Although I will never have another, I will always love the breed with all my heart! I just cannot live through DM again. If I slit my wrists and bled out slowly, over a 4 day period, it would be less painful than living through DM, ever again. I cannot go there- I just cannot. I called the U of Fla Foundation and asked them to set up a paypal account for donations to Dr Clemmons DM research. They are 501c3 organization so contributions would be tax deductable. It would be much easier to raise funds like that as people wouldnt need to send a check to the U of Florida Foundation with the memo section of the check annotated for Dr Clemmons DM research. If paypal was available, people could send in even one or two dollars at a time, which would add up. Dealing with the U of Fla is impossible. I called their foundation 3 times and never got a return phone call. Dr C also asked, and he hasnt been answered either :( I wish he would go to another University... If everyone sent in 1 dollar for every GSD they owned, there would be over 1.4 million dollars for DM research, and thats just in the USA.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate |
by darylehret on 29 June 2012 - 06:11 |
| First off, I'm not against the testing if that's what someone wants to do and it buys them some degree of peace of mind, then I understand that. Secondly, this thread isn't about what I do or don't do, and I'm not the one who keeps bringing that up in defense of their stupid remarks. What I AM against, is someone making false claims about what the test can "prove". And that "There are many well known dogs from ALL lines involved." And that,
1. Academic interest?! Where do you think that the genepool comes from in that individual dog? If it doesn't come from the producers in it's pedigree, I'd sure like to know where the hell else they'd attain their genetics! This, is of course assuming the ancestry of the pedigree is accurate in the first place, I'll grant that.
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by Blitzen on 29 June 2012 - 13:40 |
Daryl, what's the big deal about a test that only costs $65 and may help to elminate DM from the breed? You've seen the pedigrees that were listed in this thread. What did that teach you? If you don't believe me that well-known dogs frpm different lines are involved, then do your own research and prove me wrong. I am not going to name specific dogs here, they are not my dogs and it's all a matter of pubilc record anyway. 2 of the dogs in the at risk pedigrees submitted are well known in the breed and have some great accomplishments. Didn't you recognize them? They are working lines. They should not be eliminated from breeding because they are at risk or carriers. |
by Mcap on 29 June 2012 - 14:33 |
| We lost our female, Reba to DM. She was 10 yrs old. Mike |
Mcap
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