German Shepherd Dog > Linebreeding on VA2 Hill??? (23 replies)
Linebreeding on VA2 Hill???
by Evangelina on 24 June 2012 - 02:25
|I am only curious to hear from you who have had experience with breeding...I am wondering how bad, or good, would a linebreeding of 3-5,5 on Hill v. Farbenspiel be? He is known to bring very good qualities but I havent heard of his faults as of yet. So would you perform a breeding like this? I am trying to learn more in the process Thanks|
by petoasis on 24 June 2012 - 03:11
|The head and muzzle some dogs are narrow ,the saddle part fade out early.|
by Dog1 on 24 June 2012 - 03:14
|What is it that you like about Hill you would want to capture in a linebreeding?|
by Evangelina on 24 June 2012 - 03:25
|Thanks for your input Petoasis! and Dog1, I like the Hill line because it has been known to produce good working ability and pigment also. I have a Remo daughter so she carries the line. I did a mating check with a stud I know of (I am not breeding yet, I did it out of curiousity but I do like the male's pedigree) But I am wondering if that would be too much Hill in a pedigree?|
by Dog1 on 24 June 2012 - 03:40
by djc on 24 June 2012 - 18:17
|In my personal experience Hill is known for excellent working qualities.|
Let's take a look at Hill's background in the first 6 generations:
3/5 on Cello
3 rd generation - Ulk Arlett
4 th generation - Zamb Wienerau
4th + 5th - Fedor Arminius
5 x in 6 generations - Q litter Arminius who's father line was Canto free
2 x in 6 generations - Uran Wildsteiger Land who's father line was Canto free
(while the vast majority of dogs today have Q's and Uran they are no long this close up in the pedigrees and they were half brothers through Palme, who even though she carried Canto she did have Mutz)
Lasso di val Sole is another Canto free dog within the 6 generations, who also produced good work
I also see some "A" litter Kleinen pfahl who are VERY well known for producing working qualities.
In summary, I see many good work producing dogs close up. Even though he does have a significant amount of Canto in the overall picture, there is also a significant amount of Canto free. The known good producers are much closer than any of the bad. I believe he has far less Canto than most top show dogs and much of the good old lines up closer than most.
But there is still the mother's part of the equation, and no one line can overcome all weaknesses. I have had hands on on many Hill progeny that have very impressive work. Far too many to not take note. I personally have some and have also seen them produce it. I would agree though that the Hill line does tend to produce narrow heads and muzzles, although I have not seen the fading saddle as a problem in this line personally. In fact, the opposite, as far as pigment goes! Really deep red and intense black. This does not seem to be a bad combination for line breeding as the vast majority of it is pretty far out. If the female has a large head and is known for producing large heads then the chances for not ending up with small headed males is good. But also, if it's not a direct Hill son or daughter, and the other part of the pedigree has significant Canto, I believe I can see the Canto line taking back over even with a 3/5/5 on him. So check out all aspects of your pedigree and then make your decision.
by Dog1 on 24 June 2012 - 19:05
|If it's 'known' there should be many examples. It takes many examples to be 'known'. Can you name a few dogs linebred on Hill that are accomplished in the working arena?|
by Evangelina on 24 June 2012 - 20:23
|Thank you so much for taking the time to answer djc! You gave a very good and thorough explanation and foodfor thought. And I love reading this kind of info. Even though my female doesnt have Hill so close up in her pedigree she does have all those qualities, she would probably do even better if I would put more time and work into her. I am so highly pleased with her. Here is her pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=706686|
by e c street on 25 June 2012 - 01:53
|I looked up a pedigree search on Hill and then did a reverse linebreeding on Hill. That showed a lot of pictures that you could look at to get an idea of what line breeding on Hill might give you. ecs|
by djc on 25 June 2012 - 02:59
|Here is an example of what I see in Hill lines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsLgVf5iHWo|
She is 4 months old and full littermate to my male puppy Petro. Here is their pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1342465
Another that I have personal experience with (and his progeny) is V Eon von Nimbus. There are others but I don't have all of their info to give their full names and my contacts won't help because they say they don't have time for PDB BS. lol
Again, I am speaking from MY OWN personal experience.
by djc on 25 June 2012 - 03:06
You are welcome.
Your girl is VERY nice! Glad to here she exhibits good working drives! I see she has her BH! Good luck with her IPO/Sch!!
She has a similar pedigree to my pup's, mom.
Keep us updated!
by Dog1 on 25 June 2012 - 04:30
|Eon has Vando Moorbeck, one of the dogs identified to produce work on the mother's side. That leaves the puppy who is linebred on Ursus.|
by Evangelina on 25 June 2012 - 05:10
|Nice video Debby! Those puppies have a nice pedigree and theyre beautiful. And thanks for your comments! I am a novice to the show/schh but I love it. I have newer pictures here www.facebook.com/katinkavomleithawald|
by Evangelina on 25 June 2012 - 05:12
|And thank you e c street. I will def take a look at that!|
by djc on 26 June 2012 - 01:23
|The mother line of the puppy in the video is 4,4/3 on Hill.|
by Dog1 on 26 June 2012 - 04:08
|So when we speak of 'Known' from Hill we have one nice puppy as the example. Any others?|
by Ibrahim on 26 June 2012 - 08:32
|If I understand what dog1 is saying, you need to have a good number of dogs with proven work ability linebred on Hill to claim that linebreeding on Hill is known to produce dogs with good work ability.|
Hill descends from Mutz, one of the pillars in work ability and who produced very good working dogs, but that does not mean automatically that all his descendents do produce work ability and strong temperaments. That is my own understanding of what dog1 is saying, I have no personal experience with good numbers of Hill descendents to comment on the dog.
by Dog1 on 26 June 2012 - 11:20
My thoughts exactly. He was one of the last from the Mutz line and breeders had high hopes. His mother Dasti was one of the absolute best producing female of all times. As time passed the examples of offspring along with the ability to produce working ability has not become apparrant. Those that bred for working ability did not seem to get it. I was hoping we could see a pattern where there was success as was intended. Maybe others reading this will contribute,,,,I'm pretty sure it's not there even though Hill has earned a reputation as a 'known' producer. His line from Mutz can be said is a producing line, I'm not able to find where Hill is an example of a producer representing the line in sufficient quantity to consider him a 'known' producer.
by djc on 26 June 2012 - 15:56
|My own experience started with Eon as mentioned. But it was further fueled by my personal observance of the BSZS's when Hill was still active. Of which I sat there ALL DAY and closely observed. Most of his progeny had far above average and eye catching bite work. Wish I could find my notes!! One has only to go to the past video of those past years to take note of his progeny's performances. Just because I can not come up with the actual names and no one else is interested in contributing does not make it not so. Also obviously the original poster had heard it from somewhere too.|
by trixx on 26 June 2012 - 16:25
|i know of a few Hills grand sons ( same litter) and one has very weak nerves, low drive and the other has good nerves /high drive ,till you put the pressure on in bite work and he backs off. now cant say for sure if thats from the Hills side as they did have a mother side too.now i will also say i have seen some very good sons/daughter and grand son/daughter out of Hills but i also seen very nervy type. even some crazy ones and stable ones, so its really a gamble.|