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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Milo's Necropsy Report (188 replies)
by starrchar on 24 June 2012 - 23:17 |
| "You will find long hair, out of standard GSD puppies for sale, in the adverstising section, on the webpage of the highest rated DOG CLUB in the land! " The long stock coated GSD is now accepted by the SV and they have their own registry and standard. |
starrchar by GSD DEFENDER on 25 June 2012 - 00:05 |
| AKC Considers it a fault Coat The ideal dog has a double coat of medium length. The outer coat should be as dense as possible, hair straight, harsh and lying close to the body. A slightly wavy outer coat, often of wiry texture, is permissible. The head, including the inner ear and foreface, and the legs and paws are covered with short hair, and the neck with longer and thicker hair. The rear of the forelegs and hind legs has somewhat longer hair extending to the pastern and hock, respectively. Faults in coat include soft, silky, too long outer coat, woolly, curly, and open coat. |
by beetree on 25 June 2012 - 00:13 |
| GSD Defender, throw away that AKC book, at least for when you come here. They aren't exactly at the top of the pyramid when it comes to authority on the GSD standard. You might want to look closer to Germany. I made that mistake too, when I first came here. It was a real rude awakening for me, but now I get it. LC's are now acceptable for shows, too. It is a fairly new change in the rules, so don't feel bad if you didn't know. |
beetree by starrchar on 25 June 2012 - 00:28 |
| I find it amazing that AKC will register pups from parents that are siblings or parent/offspring and from parents that have no health screenings, but considers the long stock coat a fault when the gene has been woven through the GSD since the inception of the breed. |
by GSD DEFENDER on 25 June 2012 - 00:44 |
| I love long coats. Interesting that the Kennel Club UK health screens. Not sure if this is the correct link, losing connections with storms in FL. http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx |
by JonRob on 25 June 2012 - 01:08 |
Keith your idea of a problem is the solution for most GSD owners. You don't get to be the GSD czar and make the rest of us dance to your integrity tune. Our GSDs have the kind of integrity that matters to us. You don't understand it just because they don't go tearing half crazy after a flapping rag. Most GSDs will never be the kind you like because most people don't want that kind. But you can enjoy your kind of GSD and the rest of us can enjoy ours. Sure you got every right to criticize anyone you want for whatever but this one is just plain silly. I don't waste time criticizing you for liking a different kind of GSD than I like. I think it's a whole lot better for the breed if it isn't all one type. Just keep the important stuff like brains and judgment and guts and soundness and health and that incredible spark that only a GSD has. After that, go for different things with the breed. I sure don't want a bunch of GSD clones even if they're the kind I like. My ideal GSD is the guide dog who would give his life in a heartbeat to save his owner but could care less about biting for sport. The one who does his job patiently and happily. Who just quietly shifts away when his tail gets stepped on. Who wags his tail when a toddler pokes his face. That's my depth Keith. Maybe someday it will make sense to you. If a SchH title is so important for every GSD why don't the guide dog schools require their guide dogs to have one. beetree still waiting for that list of those wonderful breeders who "breed to the standard" and give you all your money back if the pup develops a real bad health problem. |
by RLHAR on 25 June 2012 - 01:29 |
JonRob
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=640962 |
RLHAR by beetree on 25 June 2012 - 01:49 |
| JonRob: Why do I need to give you a list? LOL Please, don't hold your breath! I only want people to know all those words aren't all that fabulous when they get all put together sometimes in these so called contracts. They can be used in the most bizarre and opposite ways, and since they are never written by the buyer then the buyer, should what? Oh yeah, beware! What's the big deal about asking a breeder to just be up front from the get go? Why aren't you checking out all the tales of woe on this board of people who signed contracts and, uh, wait, the breeder used one or more of the examples I cited to screw them out of a dog, and/or their money that they paid for such dog when it was apparent their puppy got the wrong set of DNA. Some breeders years later, have even finagled the possession of said dog from the paid-in-full owner, much to the owners dismay, or in one case, extending their claims onto the heirs. Most likely those are because someone decided it was the right DNA! Do this research when you have some extra time, no worries or hurries. It can become like a train wreck, so don't say I didn't warn you. |
by JonRob on 25 June 2012 - 02:44 |
RLHAR, I've known SchH dogs that were helper dogs or therapy dogs or whatever. But most helper and therapy dogs aren't SchH titled including some of the best. So the SchH title isn't needed to make sure these dogs have the right stuff for their jobs. Don't need it for a working ranch GSD either. To find out if a GSD can tolerate crowds and pressure I take him to more and more crowded places. If he keeps handling the pressure I take him to the busiest noisiest crowded place with the rudest people I can find. Then I know what he does under the kind of pressure I care about. What about the GSD who does all this, is real confident, understands what he's supposed to do for bitework and refuses to do it. Because he understands that it's a game and biting is way too serious for him to take it as a game. But when a real threat to his owner like a criminal comes along he bites if he needs to. Is he unfit? The SchH test says he is. But I've known GSDs like that and they're the best the way I see it. Not for a sport GSD person though. Will a SchH title tell me whether a GSD has a kind heart? Whether he'll go up to a spastic, drooling, grunting boy with some godawful nerve disease who looks weird as hell? And lay his head real gentle on the boy's lap and keep it there while the boy tries to pet him and bangs his head instead because he can't control his arms? And does it not because you told him to, not because he can handle pressure, but he because he knows how much that boy needs him. Will a SchH title tell me whether a GSD loves kids? Whether he'll be thrilled when a toddler he never met before grabs his lips? And lie down so he won't be so scary to little kids? Just because he adores kids and gentles right down around them. No other reason. It's just him. If you find SchH titles useful for your GSDs and you love the sport go for it and I wish you every success. I watch the sport, I have friends that do it, I think it's great. But it doesn't tell me what I want to know about a GSD. And I've known SchH titled dogs that would take a chunk out of you if you stepped on their tail. Probably would have done it before they were titled but the title's no guarantee of soundness. I've also seen SchH titled dogs that growl at kids who get in their face and bark and growl at disabled people who look real weird. You can get great herding GSDs by breeding great herding GSDs. You can get great sport GSDs by breeding great sport GSDs. And you can get great family and companion GSDs by breeding great family and companion GSDs. Seems like there should be room for all of us. RLHAR, I don't think you did this so this isn't directed at you. But I can't figure what gets into people that they have to kick the snot out of someone whose six month old pup just died and then he lets us know how happy he is that he has a beautiful new GSD pup. Thinking we'll be happy for him. That new pup is the only thing in the world that can make him feel better right now and some people just had to trash his pup. I'm sure Mike's a pretty tough guy and he can take it but why should he have to. Seems like people could do better than that. |
by RLHAR on 25 June 2012 - 03:06 |
| JonRob, I already addressed the OP and expressed my condolances on the loss of Milo and hope that the new puppy brings healing and joy to his family. To address your points. I am not talking about a title being the be all and end all of any individual dog and broad generalizations will only lead to disappointment. To me personally the title is a set of letters, it is the knowledge I gain about my dog through working and training with him in SchH that tells me how he will react and respond because I have that training bond with him. I have it also with my bitch. My husband lives with both dogs but he can not read them or understand them the way I do nor do they respond to him as they do to me, because he's never worked them. The hope is a breeder or a handler who trains and trials their own stock, whether it be in SchH or HGH is getting that understanding of their dogs through the training process. I am saying is that a SchH or a HGH title on a breeding dog is a starting point for understanding what characteristics the dog has the POTENTIAL to pass on to a litter and a discussion starter between the breeder and the potential puppy buyer to show that the breeder has sought to leverage their dogs' weakness as well as their strengths to best advantage. It is just like OFA and hip scoring a starting point to make your best attempt to breed dogs sound of body. I am not saying that the system is flawless and that there aren't people breeding for sport extremes just like there are breeders breeding for extreme pigment or angulation. What I am voicing my concern over is the blanket statement that Phase C is nothing more than 'biting a sleeve'. |
by JonRob on 25 June 2012 - 03:18 |
"What I am voicing my concern over is the blanket statement that Phase C is nothing more than 'biting a sleeve'." Which I never said. Just that there's lots of ways to train and evaluate a dog and SchH is only one of them. It's not right for everyone, probably not for most people. I think SchH is great if you're into it. But it doesn't tell me what I want to know about a dog. So it's not like OFA or hip scoring for me. Or for the guide dog schools. It is for you and that's great. But there are lots of other ways to work with a dog that will make a real strong bond and tell you whether he's got the right stuff. It just depends on what you want to do with him. |
by marjorie on 25 June 2012 - 04:04 |
| ---> Marjorie, I don't know any breeders who do that, so I'm not sure how to respond to that question Sadly, I do, Blitzen :(Because this breeder has champions, they get away with it. However, with all the litters they have out of their champions, I guess sometimes if you throw enough crap against a wall, eventually some of it sticks, and some of the pups will become champions, and they will be bred, passing along doubled up epilepsy genes (if there is such a thing, which there probably is. They just dont have the science to prove that yet, even though you can see it in family lines.) This person has 20 puppies at a time on their premisis, constantly, yet is awarded breeder of merit by the AKC due to Chic tests of sire and dams. It makes me sick. The AKC is so screwed up, it needs to be disbanded. Reporting this breeder to the GSDCA would do no good, as they didnt even do anything over that horrid abuse case I brought before them. Meanwhile the pups of chic tested sires and dams make for great puppy advertisements, and little do the uneducated buyers know, the pups are doubled up on epilepsy :( It breaks my heart. God only knows how many litters per year this person produces. I always see pups advertised from that kennel. Person has unsold pups from previous litters yet keeps on breeding. Titles, chic tests, breeders award of merit do not change the fact that this person is a puppy mill, IMHO. There is another who breeds like that and sells (*rehoming fees* of course) unsold pups on craigslist. What responsible breeder would put pups on craigslist for research labs and abusers to pick off?? IMHO, that should be immediate grounds for expulsion from a dog club, in ANY breed. |
marjorie by Sunsilver on 25 June 2012 - 05:17 |
| JonRob, love your posts. You are saying the same thing I was trying to say, but did it better. I know schutzhund is far more than biting a sleeve, but I don't believe it is the ONLY valid test of a GSDs value. As you pointed out, a Sch. titled dog isn't necessarily good with kids or with the handicapped, or someone who steps on his tail. In my world, those things are important. My dogs are out in the real world, visiting stores and public events where they interact with all sorts of people, not all of whom treat them politely. I just had two bratty kids follow me around the grocery store tonight, yelling and giggling, and shouting "LOOK! DOGGY!" One of them was wearing flip flops, which he used to deliberately make loud slapping noises on the floor. Fortunately, their mom corraled them just as I was about to give them a piece of my mind. Star sat by my grocery cart throughout it, calmly watching them. Once or twice she looked up at me, as if to say, "What the HECK are those kids doing?" I've had my other service dog, Ranger, in a crowded, dark room, with loud music booming, and he was FAR more relaxed than I was. In the course of a 3 day convention, his first serious outing as my service dog, he tolerated having his tail and feet stepped on, seieing people in all sorts of weird costumes, being in a con room where the floor was covered with snack debris (and never even bothering with it after I told him 'leave it'!) What else? Oh, yeah. He probably save my life, too, when, on our bedtime walk, I fell into a snow-covered fence post hole and was unable to get out. To me, having a dog I can trust in all situations is far more important than a schutzhund degree. BTW, Baugh, when you checked Patchwork's website, you missed that they title most of their dogs in herding, and also do agility and obedience with them, though only the herding titles show up with the dog's names. Some of the dogs are temperament tested and have their CGC. Not the most important titles in the world, but something your average BYB certainly wouldn't bother with. |
Sunsilver by Abby Normal on 25 June 2012 - 05:57 |
JonRob, your post at 02.06 was excellent. Mike, I hope your new pup is everything that you hope for, after your terrible experience with Milo. I hope you will post some more photos as he grows, and let us know how he is doing. |
Abby Normal by 4 mals2sheps on 25 June 2012 - 10:39 |
| jonrob, GREAT POSTS!!! |
by Mcap on 25 June 2012 - 12:11 |
Sadly, I do, Blitzen :(Because this breeder has champions, they get away with it. However, with all the litters they have out of their champions, I guess sometimes if you throw enough crap against a wall, eventually some of it sticks, and some of the pups will become champions, and they will be bred, passing along doubled up epilepsy genes (if there is such a thing, which there probably is. They just dont have the science to prove that yet, even though you can see it in family lines.) This person has 20 puppies at a time on their premisis, constantly, yet is awarded breeder of merit by the AKC due to Chic tests of sire and dams. It makes me sick. The AKC is so screwed up, it needs to be disbanded. Reporting this breeder to the GSDCA would do no good, as they didnt even do anything over that horrid abuse case I brought before them. Meanwhile the pups of chic tested sires and dams make for great puppy advertisements, and little do the uneducated buyers know, the pups are doubled up on epilepsy :( It breaks my heart. God only knows how many litters per year this person produces. I always see pups advertised from that kennel. Person has unsold pups from previous litters yet keeps on breeding. Titles, chic tests, breeders award of merit do not change the fact that this person is a puppy mill, IMHO. There is another who breeds like that and sells (*rehoming fees* of course) unsold pups on craigslist. What responsible breeder would put pups on craigslist for research labs and abusers to pick off?? IMHO, that should be immediate grounds for expulsion from a dog club, in ANY breed.
I agree that is a very unfortunate situation and 20 puppies on the ground is probably a very low number (if we are talking about the same breeder). According to their web site, they currently have 11 litters on the ground. Even if the average litter is 5 pups, that is 55. I have filed a complaint on ripoffreport.com for the sole purpose of hopefully preventing a prospective buyer from getting sucked into a nightmare, like I did. I also sent a copy of it to Mr Dan Yee, president of the WDA. I probably will not get a response, but it is public record that the breeder I am referring to is still on probation for unethical practices (tail breaking and coloring). Mike |
Mcap by Keith Grossman on 25 June 2012 - 12:30 |
| "You don't get to be the GSD czar and make the rest of us dance to your integrity tune." It isn't my integrity tune, it's the originator of the breed's. It's his dog; he gets to do that and you don't get to arbitrarily change it just because you're too inexperienced a trainer or too weak a handler for this breed. If you want to breed a Golden Retriever in a GSD body, do that but call it JonRob's Frou-frou Fifi Dog or whatever else you'd like; don't call it a German Shepherd Dog. "Just keep the important stuff like brains and judgment and guts and soundness and health and that incredible spark that only a GSD has." And how do you know that if, like Patchwork, you do nothing with your dogs? The entire spectrum of dogs you describe in your posts can be found in litters from titled and breed surveyed parents. Doing nothing to prove breedworthiness tells you exactly that about your dogs' abilities and temperament...nothing. "My ideal GSD is the guide dog who would give his life in a heartbeat to save his owner but could care less about biting for sport." So, a dog with natural defense... "The one who does his job patiently and happily. Who just quietly shifts away when his tail gets stepped on." So, a dog with no defense... Sounds to me like you don't know what you want...or what you're talking about...or both. Too many people come to this forum looking for validation for their poor breeding choices and too many people like you are more than willing to give it to them. Spend your money any way that makes happy but don't expect people like me not to call you out on it. |
Keith Grossman by Blitzen on 25 June 2012 - 14:10 |
I sure hope the next time some of the board favorites who do zip before breeding their dogs or who never make good on contracts but who are bold enough to come here showing cutsie photos of their newest litters are held to the same standard. So far their puppies are gushed over and promoted as being great workings and prospects when their are no hip or elbow xrays, no health checks whatsoever, and in one case a dog that could not pass OFA was the sire. IMO Mike has a much better chance of getting a nice GSD from Patchwork who at least does the basics than a breeder who does zip but who still enjoys protection on the PDB. |
Blitzen by Blitzen on 25 June 2012 - 14:17 |
| Marj, I agree that on the surface it looks as if the GSDCA should do better. The breed club I use to belong to tried to discipline members for doing similar things as you have just talked about.They got sued and had to empty their treasury to compensate a member who the court ruled was libeled when his membership was suspended for conduct not in the best interests of the breed and club. This is a sue crazy country, AKC parent clubs, the WDA, etc hands are tied when it comes to discipling members. |
by Keith Grossman on 25 June 2012 - 14:38 |
| "I sure hope the next time some of the board favorites who do zip before breeding their dogs or who never make good on contracts but who are bold enough to come here showing cutsie photos of their newest litters are held to the same standard. So far their puppies are gushed over and promoted as being great workings and prospects when their are no hip or elbow xrays, no health checks whatsoever, and in one case a dog that could not pass OFA was the sire." I'd be interested in you directing me to any post of mine in which I've done that. |
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