German Shepherd Dog > Milo's Necropsy Report (188 replies)
by Sunsilver on 23 June 2012 - 16:57
|I do not support or agree with buying from a BYB and think the OP would be much better off going with a smaller scale good breeder. |
IMO, that's EXACTLY what he's doing! BYBs do NOT OFA hips and elbows, nor do they bother to sell their dogs with limited registration, nor do they give two hoots who they breed their studs to!
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 17:01
|"Demise of the German Shepherd Dog? Mike did his homework, he trusted some high advertised breeder, and he has a dead dog, tons of Vet bills for the two dogs he bought, and a broken heart! Unlike some of the breeders that tattoo, chip, show, trial, use magic markers and red shampoo, the breeder he chose for his new puppy, is just a plain family hobby breeder with no marks against them, that love GSD's. That's his right, and as I said, like glue, beat the guy up because he didn't pay $800, $1,500 $2,600 and up yet again, to some star spangled kennel, and slammed because he didn't take advice from the know it all's, and spin the dice again, like a box a chocolates someone said, right? As the GSD dog world turns, everyone on this thread know's the truth now!"|
Yeah, I'm not defending the "star spangled kennels" and their over-priced dogs but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. I know plenty of hobby breeders who work their asses off training and trialing their dogs and put tens of thousands of miles on their vehicles to drag them halfway across the country to put them in a show that they could only hope to win against virtually insurmountable odds. They sell their dogs in the same price range as this "kennel" and typically operate at a loss. They do so because they truly care for the breed and adherence to the standard is the right thing to do. Those people's efforts should be rewarded; they've earned it. Patchwork is breeding dogs for one reason...income.
by Sunsilver on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
|And I'm calling 'bullshit' back at you. How could a kennel that does not stud its dogs out, and sells all its pups (with very rare exceptions) on limited registration, be in it for the MONEY??|
Most of the big name kennels make their money on the stud fees as it's easier and less expensive than caring for pups and breeding females.
Really, does schutzhund or ring sport have to be the ONLY measuring stick used to evaluate the GSD? These dogs are worked in herding, agility and obedience, and some are obviously being prepared to be therapy dogs. How do YOU know how many hours the owners spend training and titleing these dogs?
by GSDPACK on 23 June 2012 - 17:17
all my working line dogs can work and be around kids, people horses and even toddlers.
Each and every one of them has done training up to muzzle work and some serious defense work. The biggest complaint I had about my dogs is that the kids were not able to out them with a toy and were rather pulled around the back yard. Well boohoo!
I hate when people generalize and I don't give a hoot about what dog/line.
Most of the puppies I pick as pet dogs are in families with children.. And guess what, both parents were titled and the price is the SAME! So there are MANY small time breeders who have excellent puppies for sale. I know of three litters out of amazing dogs for the same price and those people work their dogs. they are not BYB with breeding every female they have to every male they have!
So guess what. If OP wants that dog, let him have it but don't you get all pissed when people get offended by buyers buying junk and paying this ridiculous amount for something that is not even considered papered in controlled breeding countries. But in America, we can do whatever the hell we want, justify why we don;t meet the minimum requirements of why we breed a dog that would not pass OFA, a dog that falls apart outside of his back yard, shows aggression towards puppies.. f'ing awesome.
OP I wish you luck, socialize the puppy a LOT, make sure he gets everywhere and take him out and have fun, I am sure he will be fine. Just please remember, people who are against it, have a reason... and I understand why you can't see their point. If you put your heart and soul into breeding and working your dog, you would know why. I just leave it at that. Good luck and congrats.
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 17:20
Well, Sunsilver, you're not exactly a champion for the breed anyway; are you?
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 17:26
|"If you put your heart and soul into breeding and working your dog, you would know why."|
I'll go one further...if you'd put your heart, soul, money, time and tears...lot of them...into rescuing, rehabbing and finding homes for just a small percentage of the unwanted dogs out there while the others get marched off to die by the thousands every day in this country, you'd understand why breeders like this might upset someone like me.
by marjorie on 23 June 2012 - 17:50
|--- > You are wasting your time contacting GSDCA|
Thats for sure- contacting the GSDCA Ethics Committee??? LMAO! They did nothing when I reported a well known breeder who beat their dog at an AKC show event (providing notarized witness statements), after the dog lost, and also provided documented proof of other abuse. They are a disgraceful organization. See no evil, speak no evil hear no evil. Shame of them- God help the breed if they are supposed to be the caretakers of the breed. All they do when confronted is to circle the wagons and accuse people of witch hunts. They wouldnt know the meaning of the word truth if it bit them in the ass-their actions speak louder than their words- how could they truly care about the breed if they dont care when there is abuse reported?
I am so very sorry for your loss :(
by GSD DEFENDER on 23 June 2012 - 17:54
|I answered a rescue ad one time, German Shepherd will die at 5:00 PM, it was 3:45 when I called the rescuer, I had the phone slammed in my face because my other dog was not neutered!!! I was willing to take the dog but I was not good enough because I didn't neuter my other dog!!! So no wonder the pounds are full, 19 pages pages of paperwork, several home INSPECTIONS when after all the dog is going to die if someone doesn't interviene, but if you are not perfect person?!?!?!?!?|
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 18:04
|Yes, some rescues can be a bit rabid but many others are not.|
by RLHAR on 23 June 2012 - 18:39
|To the OP. I am so sorry about the loss of Milo and the devestation of that sudden loss to your family. I hope you enjoy your new puppy and that he becomes everything you want in a family companion.|
Something else in this thread caught my attention and I just feel the need to speak to it.
With all due respect SunSilver, you keep going on about a dog biting a sleeve. Perhaps I am naive but when I watch a protection routine, when I see it trained and when I train my own dogs in it, I do not see it as a 'dog biting a sleeve.'
I see it as the pentultimate test and chance to see the expression of my dog's bidibility, obedience and most of all their temperment, nerves and reactive responses in pressure situations.
Sure some dogs are considered over the top and many reward this for how it looks out on the sport field in front of the judge, I won't discount that but at the same time I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Seeing a dog work in SchH bitework tells me a lot about his/her temperment, their threshold for stressful situations, their nerves and their minds. There is a purpose to 'biting the sleeve' in evaluating breeding potential for a dog, in evaluating what the dog's over all temperment is like, not just whether or not he'll bite the sleeve and it is the dog's overall temperment that will bleed into all other jobs and purposes a GSD may be used for, whether it is herding, therapy, police K9, family companion.
Personally I would not trust the temperment of a breeding pair where I could not see their working ability in a pressured situation like Phase C of SchH or Ringsport. I do not believe you get a true picture of a dog's temperment without that componant. I'm not even talking about the constant question, would my SchH trained dog defend me from a break in. I am talking about the day to day living with a dog. Taking the dog to the vet, having a strange child walk up to my dog, having a woman stand on my dog's tail in a crowd (had that happen last year in fact), all sorts of simple stressful situations for just our companion dogs. I like knowing that when put in those stressful positions, my dog has a clear head and I know what their threshhold for reaction is and that is all stemming from training in bitework.
So I guess it is just a pet peeve of mine to see people toss around 'bite work' as if its nothing more than a dog 'biting a sleeve.'
by Red Sable on 23 June 2012 - 18:57
|"Selling dogs on limited registration doesn't impress me either...so she can breed dogs that don't meet any semblance of the standard for the breed but no one else can? She is essentially preventing her puppy buyers from doing exactly the same thing she is doing. Ironic; huh?"|
Hypocritical and pure bullshit IMO. I have seen so many breeders that breed crap and yet think they can pass themselves off as responsible breeders by pulling that stunt.
Many times it is to eliminate competition.
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 19:30
|I have a different take on limited registration, I like that option. I see nothing "wrong" with selling a pet quality puppy with a LR. Before AKC offered that, we had to sell pets with neutering agreements that sometimes backfired if the dog turned out to be better than originally thought. With LR the breeder can rescind it so the dog can be bred and shown in the future. I don't look at an LR as a way to elminate competition, I consider it a good way to keep pet quality dogs from producing dogs that are eligible for registration. What's the alternative?|
The breed club I belonged to at the time required each member to sign and agree to abide by a Code of Ethics. One of these Codes said that all pet puppies MUST go with neutering agreements. So either we agreed to that in writing or we couldn't renew our membership. I think that's a common requirement in most AKC breed clubs.
by GSD DEFENDER on 23 June 2012 - 19:31
|Yeah, I'm not defending the "star spangled kennels" and their over-priced dogs but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. I know plenty of hobby breeders who work their asses off training and trialing their dogs and put tens of thousands of miles on their vehicles to drag them halfway across the country to put them in a show that they could only hope to win against virtually insurmountable odds. They sell their dogs in the same price range as this "kennel" and typically operate at a loss. They do so because they truly care for the breed and adherence to the standard is the right thing to do. Those people's efforts should be rewarded; they've earned it. Patchwork is breeding dogs for one reason...income.|
If that were true then she would make a lot more money if she didn't ofa and offer to take the dogs back, BYB don't do that. I see a huge pride thing going on, breeders name their kennels after themselves, all claiming the PERFECT bloodline belongs to them and everyone else is BYB.
SV rules, each (1) German Shepherd stud dog is allowed to have a maximum of ""90 breedings per year""" 60 German / 30 foreign. With an average litter size of 5-6 puppies (8-10?), this can be around 500 puppies per year. BREED THE DOG TO DEATH!
500 puppies X's $1,800 some are sold for $2,500 $3,500, $10,000 and UP! Like how broke are these breeders? Wonder if they pay the IRS?!?!? I randomly took the above statistics off a breeders webpage so you guys can hash out the truthfulness in the SV statement as I don't know, I am not, or want to be in your Knights-of- the- Round -Table-Club thingy you got going on! Caution, may cause you to lose next time or not get that approval rating, maybe reprimanded for something, kicked out for a year.
by Ruger1 on 23 June 2012 - 19:38
|Mcap and others,,|
I understand the loss as I lost my 12 month old male King from the same heart condition with the same terrible scenario..
King was purchased after almost two years of research. Mind you, I did not have half the knowledge I have today, but the breeder I chose was the ultimate BYB with all the bells and whistles..Words like "family companion" "old fashion" blah, blah, blah,,all the right words and a beautiful website..
However, she sold me a puppy who had ectopic ureter and that died at 12 months old of a sudden heart attack..She blamed me for not giving him the supplement she sold..She offered me 100$ off another 1,000$ puppy..:( The male she used for breeding was sold to a pet home about two years later after producing a dozen or so litters. >sigh<
My current male Prince is from the same breeder as Milo,physically Prince could not be more handsome and healthy then he is now..Although Prince's temperament is questionable..
**By the way Mcap, We did not get a bill of sale or paper guarantee either,,The look on mine and my husbands faces when when we paid in cash and received no receipts, guarantee, or registration paper was priceless..But our cute little puppy made it all better...> I guess<
Bottom line there is no guarantee with any puppy, but I agree with Keith's post. We have an obligation to our breed to be very careful about what breeders we support..
Mcap,,at this point I am sure the deal is sealed so I am hoping all the best for you and your new puppy..
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 19:43
When I think of a BYB I don't envision a breeder who xrays hips and elbows or uses dogs with recognizable pedigrees. Those are all added costs that cut into bottom line profits. A BYB IMO is the breeder who breeds RinTinTin XXX to Doll Baby XXX with no thought to xrays or health checks. There are also BYB's who buy breeding stock from well known kennels to try to legitimize their litters, but who still do no health checks before breeding.
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 19:47
|This thread makes me want to go out and buy a cat.|
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 20:08
|"500 puppies X's $1,800 some are sold for $2,500 $3,500, $10,000 and UP!"|
You're still hung up on the large commercial breeders, not the smaller hobby breeders. My current dog has more VA's in his pedigree than you can shake a stick at including multiple world siegers. I paid $1,200.00 for him...$1,500.00 if you count the money I spent to pay for gas so the breeder could drive here from the east coast to bring him to me...and bring his sire out so I could see him work! Granted, I've been around for a minute or two and have made some friends in the dog world but there are excellent dogs available at a reasonable price if you look for them.
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 20:10
|I like your posts, Deanna. You are the 4th person I know whose young GSD dog died in the same untimely manner. That must be the ultimate heartbreak.|
I agree that we should be careful who we support. Having an AKC CH makes me wonder just how much support I would get here if I bred her although she is titled and CHIC certified. I think recommending a good breeder is subjective and has a different meaning for most of us on this board.
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 20:11
|"When I think of a BYB I don't envision a breeder who xrays hips and elbows or uses dogs with recognizable pedigrees."|
It costs a few hundred dollars to OFA a dog. Lots of people spend more than that every month on gas to get to and from training.
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 20:16
|They sure do, Keith, and they wouldn't shout BYB to me either if they do either or both. Which is more important? That would be a tough decision for me, I'd opt to buy from a breeder who just does it all.|