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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Milo's Necropsy Report (188 replies)
by Blitzen on 19 June 2012 - 14:18 |
| This is the AKC list of their breeders of merit. You can check to see their name is there. If not, let AKC know. http://www.akc.org/breederofmerit/breederofmerit_list.cfm |
Blitzen by Mcap on 19 June 2012 - 14:37 |
| The breeder is listed. Mike |
Mcap by JonRob on 19 June 2012 - 14:54 |
The reason this breeder keeps selling pups is because most folks who get burned think it would be mean to post who they are. So no one gets warned away. If you'd seen a thread blasting this breeder on PDB you might have stayed away and never showed up to buy two sick pups. PDB is the place to warn people, not your own website because PDB really gets the word out. Only way the breeder can make it right is to start breeding healthy pups or get out of the dog business so there won't be as many pups like poor Milo dropping dead at six months. That won't happen until people know not to buy from this breeder. |
by DebiSue on 19 June 2012 - 17:28 |
| You will not be "sinking" to their level by posting their kennel name on here. You owe it to others to report crappy breeders so that others are warned. You don't need to give your opinion or make it a nasty gram, just list the facts and let the complaint speak for itself. I for one would want to know if a breeder in my region is selling unhealthy dogs. The only way to shut them down is to remove the market for their pups. They should refund your money and you should look elsewhere for a replacement. Do not take another puppy from them. Cut your losses now and hope your current pup gets well. Best of luck and so sorry about Milo. RIP puppy. |
DebiSue by hexe on 19 June 2012 - 18:46 |
| If the kennel is the one I suspect it is based upon the description of it by the OP, it's unlikely the thread will survive if the names of kennel or breeder are mentioned; I could be wrong, of course, but I think this row has been hoed in the past, and probably draws 'cease and desist' contact from the kennel's legal counsel unless the accusations are eliminated from the board. Just a guess on my part, though. |
by GSD DEFENDER on 19 June 2012 - 19:08 |
| Florida has one of the toughest Lemon Laws on the books, What it amounts to is, the State writes the breeder a letter, the breeder does not have to respond, we pay a full staff to write letters and in the end, they tell you to go to small claims court. Since Milo's breeder is false advertising then the local media loves to expose cases like this and the State Attorney would be interested in the misleading advertisements. Also, AKC is only interested in "is the paperwork correct" and that is all. Publish the facts on this board, all emails, name the Kennel, save others from heartache, and file in court, lost wages for getting the dogs to the Vet also, make hard copies of the breeders webpage, run the phone number through yahoo.com and every thing attached to the phone number will come up, works for email too. Print everything out. Maybe the kennel is operating illeagally in your county? I thought you said you saw the breeder listed on GSDCA webpage? |
by Mcap on 19 June 2012 - 19:25 |
| I thought their tag showed Breeder of Merit from the GSDCA, but I was wrong. They have produced some outstanding dogs including several USA Siegers. They have a huge operation and if they choose to operate in the fashion they do, they will have to meet their maker some day. This was quite a life lesson learned for me and I have already talked to a couple of other breeders that were more interested in our family and how we will raise our dogs versus "get your check book out". We are visiting Allta Tollhaus this weekend. Julie seems like an unbelievable person and comes highly recommended. Here are the sire and dam of the two pups we purchased: Sire: V1 Tony von der Burg Haidstein SchH3, Kkl1a Dam:V1 Blair vom Mittelwest SchH1, KKL1a We are taking Rocco in next week to have some heart test run. Hopefully everything will be fine. Mike |
by GSD DEFENDER on 19 June 2012 - 19:51 |
| http://www.gsdca-wda.org/results/Topline05-19-20-07.htm If you run the Dam exactly how you have it posted at yahoo.com you will find this link and the dog is listed on the GSDA-WDA page I have included. |
by GSD DEFENDER on 19 June 2012 - 20:08 |
by hexe on 19 June 2012 - 20:58 |
| GSD DEFENDER, what's your point? Mcap certainly already knows where he obtained his dogs, and it doesn't take Blue's Clues for anyone else to suss it out from the info already mentioned in this post. Mike, I am terribly sorry for your family, for Milo, and for poor Rocco as well; it's an understatement to say that your experiences with your two lovely GSD puppies, born of well known and respected European import bloodlines, have not unfolded as you expected or desired. It's just sadness all around, no matter how it's considered. That said, I can't ignore the fact that it is unlikely the breeder of these boys *knew* that Milo had a heart condition, although the issue of allegies with Rocco should have been noticed while he was still at the kennel, since you note that he had the symptoms when you took him home with you...so the breeder should have acknowledged that from the start. I say this not in defense of the breeder--who I don't know personally--but to make clear some basic but hard facts of life when it comes to GSDs: allergies of various kinds have become overly common in the breed, as have maladies for which there are no pre-screening tests presently available that could indicate whether or not a dog or bitch is carrying the genetics to produce these problems. In addition to allergies to food items, inhalent allergens such as pollens, contact allergies and drug allergies, GSDs also can suffer from pancreatic insufficiency, inflammatory bowel disorder, various cardiac issues, and a host of autoimmune disorders...yet breeders are presently without a way to test for these conditions prior to mating their dogs. The best that can be done for these issues is to assess whether or not the dogs which are considered to be candidates for breeding stock suffer from any of these disorders themselves; if the answer is yes to any of the problems, the dog shouldn't be used for breeding. Steps beyond that, ideally, would be to assess whether said candidates had any *siblings* (full or half) which had these problems, or which had produced any of these problems, and rule out those dogs with affected relatives. The problem with THAT, however, is one common in any purebred dog: the gene pool is always limited, to one degree or another, and depending on how closely it's customary to line-breed within a particular breed, it can be nearly impossible to eliminate all breeding stock that is related to a dog or dogs that either suffered from a condition, or have produced said conditions in offspring. Even mixed breed dogs are not exempt from genetic maladies such as hip dysplasia, allergies and so forth--and spontaneous mutations of genes does occur in the real world, for which no-one can prepare. The point is this: Your experiences so far aside, you and anyone else contemplating buying a pedigreed dog needs to recognize that there is NO way a breeder can actually 'guarantee' the puppy you purchase from them won't develop ANY form of a genetic disorder at some point in its life; the number of ailments that can be definitively ruled out in any given litter is limited at present, so a buyer has to go into this KNOWING that it's no different than 'a box of chocolates: you never know what you're gonna get' when it comes to the health of the dog over a lifetime. Alta-Tollhaus has an excellent reputation, and the breeder there does her due diligence to try and avoid producing puppies that will break somebody's heart one day by being diagnosed with a health concern of genetic origin, but if she produces enough litters over the course of her life, she, too, will likely have a small percentage of pups that are dealt a bad genetic hand in the same manner as Milo and Rocco seem to have gotten. Just don't go into your search for a companion thinking it can't happen again, or you risk being broken-hearted again through no one's fault but nature's. [FWIW, I'd MUCH rather have a puppy out of a litter where both parents can eat ANY brand of dog food, no matter how cheap, can sneak mouthfulls of chicken feed or oats meant for horses, roll in grass and hayfields and get bitten by fleas, and still thrive physically and mentally, not develop any skin issues or digestive problems and the like, than get a pup from a litter where the parents are ONLY fed the most select of raw diets, no grains or fillers or preservatives or by-products, no vaccinations after the initial puppy series save for the mandated rabies. The latter type of dogs are 'hot house flowers'; I'll take the field strain plants instead, thanks much.] |
by GSD DEFENDER on 19 June 2012 - 21:17 |
| We'll see how ethical they are if they breed the same two dogs again, won't we? |
by 4 mals2sheps on 20 June 2012 - 00:52 |
| Sorry for your loss , I agree with Hexe very informative post. |
by Ruger1 on 20 June 2012 - 01:42 |
| For whatever it's worth, the sire Tony is not listed on the breeders website under their breeding males. Also, the dam Blair is for sale. The ad says " Blair can be sold into a family companion home ".... It does not appear that the breeder is intending of breeding them again.. Mcap,,just breaks my heart every time I think of your loss,,such sadness,, Hex,,good post,, |
Ruger1 by hexe on 20 June 2012 - 05:21 |
| Did the breeder even own the sire to begin with, or was he simply a dog that was used over their bitch, Blair? 'Cause in April 2011, when he was V4 in the working dog class @ Altenstadt, Bavaria, it looks like he was owned by someone named Hermann Huttel...I'm sure that Milo and Rocco's litter wasn't the first one he'd sired before he was brought into the US (he's currently @ Hokschhaus GSDs-- http://hokschhaus.com/males/tony/-- and he's a beautifully built dog, and the dogs behind him are well-respected in the show world). It also appears that Blair had three litters prior to the one Milo and Rocco are from, but sired by different males. It's entirely possible that the other three breedings didn't produce anything unusual, especially since I notice that the breeder indicates they kept several of this bitch's daughters back for themselves. Milo and Rocco's father, interestingly enough, has NO linebreeding in the first five generations of his pedigree; Blair has a typical degree of linebreeding, but the combination of her and Tony was still a relatively 'open' pedigree, with line breeding on 2 dogs found in the 4th and 5th generations--not an extreme amount in the least. In other words, there's nothing about this mating that shouts 'beware! trouble ahead!' when you look the lineage over... If I had a full sister to Milo and Rocco's mother, would I choose to breed her to Milo and Rocco's father, knowing what we have learned at this point in time? No, I wouldn't, because I wouldn't want to risk the bitch having the same genetic hand as her sister, knowing how that combined with Tony's genetic cards in this instance...but by the same token, bred to a different male with a different background, it's likely as not that the resulting pups would all be fine, just as it would appear Blair's previous litters had been. (I don't have a full sister to her, nor do I have any breeding dogs, for that matter.) So, GSD DEFENDER, while I would expect a breeder to NOT repeat a pairing that produced pups with allergies or heart conditions or any other maladies that can't be hedged against with testing and screening, there's nothing unethical about continuing to use one or both dogs for breeding with partners of *different* lineages if they've shown themselves to produce sound, healthy offspring with other lines. It's all a crapshoot, and even the best breeder in the world has limited control of the shuffling the genetic deck of cards is going to get from any given pairing. Add to this the suspicions as to the effects that chemicals in the environment may have on the genes in an individual creature, and you have circumstances that are beyond the reach of mere mortals such as us...such as breeders are, too. But I'm still so very saddened for both Milo's loss and Rocco's difficulties, Mike...even knowing it's a crapshoot doesn't make it hurt any less. |
by GSD DEFENDER on 20 June 2012 - 10:50 |
As Mike posted above Sire/Dam, copy and paste at yahoo.com, follow those links and Tony X Blair 2011 apppears on the website, is that what you used in your research? |
by Sunsilver on 20 June 2012 - 11:10 | |
| Here's the linebreeding on Blair. Too much linebreeding/inbreeding can affect the immune system, resulting in immune-related disorders. And allergies fall into that category! 3-3 on Urus? NOT a good idea! I will say the breeder was obviously aware of the problem, because they chose a lesser-known stud, which had no linebreeding at all within 5 generations to breed her to. That was a very wise move, but it obviously didn't work.
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Sunsilver by Blitzen on 20 June 2012 - 12:25 |
| Linebreeding is only as harmful or as good as the genepool of the dogs on which the breeding was based. It causes nothing. Whether or not the breeder knew that there were potential health problems is something we will never know for sure. Years ago I had a litter with 2 severely dysplastic puppies, so bad that they had no sockets and had to be put down. One of the buyers circulated the rumor that I was breeding dysplastic dogs and no one should ever buy a dog from me. That was spun around and ended up suggesting that I used dysplastic dogs in my breeding program. Things went down the toilet for me from that day forward. It took me years to recover from those falsehoods. I don't assume anything about other breeders' choices. |
by Mcap on 20 June 2012 - 12:58 |
Here's a pic of Milo's brother Rocco. It's been a long 10 days for him, but he is finally starting to "be himself" again. |
by Blitzen on 20 June 2012 - 13:06 |
| He's really a beautiful puppy! I don't know if anyone has mentioned this to you or not, but I would be suspicious of a breeder who would sell a buyer 2 dogs of the same age at the same time. The danger is that the dogs will bond to one another more than their human family. GSD breeders usually warn buyers that it is not a good idea. Also, wasn't little Milo a longcoat too? I owned a coat myself and the grooming was almost never ending to keep him looking nice. I don't think I'd want to have to groom 2 longcoats. |
by joanro on 20 June 2012 - 13:11 |
| Sun silver, why not 3-3 on Ursus ? Just curious. Thanks. Blitzen, good point. |
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