German Shepherd Dog > Critique my dog please (82 replies)
by maywood on 18 June 2012 - 01:11
|Ha ha, the working line folks posting on this thread are a bunch of goofballs. They can bag on show lines all day long, laugh and giggle and carry on. Soon as someone makes a valid point against their precious working lines they just lose all their common sense. That is just funny from my POV. lol!|
Vianden, thanks for the pictures as they are very nice and so is your dog. But that sure looks like a show line shepherd to me from those pictures. Wouldn’t surprise me at all your girl has some showline in her background. Also, take a look at the dogs that compete for the Herding titles at the Sieger Show. Interestingly enough, most of them are showline as well.
As I said before, I am sure there are some working lines that can do this type of work but it is definitely the exception and not the rule. But I am just sharing with you all my own experiences, take it or leave it, I don’t really give a crap if you believe or not. I know what I know.
by Felloffher on 18 June 2012 - 01:29
by GSDguy08 on 18 June 2012 - 01:33
|maywood you never made a valid point....... And how is trotting around a ring working ability? When Max mentioned to let the breed remain a working dog.......I don't think trotting in a ring was the only thing he had in mind. I know of plenty of WL Shepherds who could go and would go for hours "if" you let them. They would work themselves to death if you let them. The so called "WL" dogs you had in the past must have been some seriously crappy, BYB WL dogs.|
by EuroShepherd on 18 June 2012 - 01:37
Felloffher, methinks she's been into it the whole time. I'm still waiting for photos of what she considers to be the ideal showline dog.
So Eddie, quite a wild hijacking for you, huh?
by maywood on 18 June 2012 - 01:57
|Felloffher (what does that name mean btw) - No, that was last night. You know, Saturday night, when most normal people party and have a good time to relieve stress from the previous work week. I unfortunately made a post I normally wouldn't have simply because I already knew it would ruffle some feathers. Not sure why I did that last night because I really don't give a crap. But I did, for whatever reason, and am merely following through with it I guess. But today I am just a little hung over is all. I am still sharing with you what I honestly believe to be the truth from my own experience and knowledge in the breed. At the end of the day, we are all still in love with the same breed of dog. So cheers, no hard feelings intended.|
GSDGuy that owns mostly siberian huskies – still haven’t really figured out why you even post so much on a german shepherd dog board, but anyway. The valid point is that running around a ring is not what you think it is. It is a very intensive examination of the dog’s endurance. Go to any German style show and watch the breathing patterns of the show lines compared to the few working lines that sometimes get entered. You will see with your own eyes how the working lines will be panting up a storm about to fall over from exhaustion when its over. This is ultimately why they don’t place so well, not because they are ugly.
EuroShepherd – I’m a dude not a dudette. The greatest show line trotter I have ever seen with my own two eyes was Yasko Farbenspiel. But one had to see him perform to truly believe it. I am not even about to try to convince you of this.
Sorry for the hijacking, but I sure hope we are all learning something of value today.
by GSDguy08 on 18 June 2012 - 02:01
|What does it matter if I own mostly Huskies as to where I post. I have a German Shepherd, I have had some Shepherds in the past, and I've worked with a number of them before. Aside from that the Sibes would run circles around your SL Shepherds. Remember what my dogs were bred for.......|
by maywood on 18 June 2012 - 02:04
|...not on pavement they wouldn't.|
by fasteddielv on 18 June 2012 - 02:30
|gagsd4, I here you, I'm not concerned at all. I just wanted to get some feedback about his current conformation. To be honest I never noticed the "Wavy top line" so this I learned, maybe it will level out, maybe not. I also will be more aware of stacking etc. not sure what that will get me, but non the less.|
Maywood, your experiences are as I said, far from the norm. Maybe you had some less than normal WL shepherds, I've been into Shepherds for five years other than in my youth. I've done SchH during this time, I can only remeber one WL that was out of shape. But the handler didn't do much with the dog and she was a bit out of shape herself. Other than SchH training one or two nights a week, I don't think the dog got out much.
I think if you gradually run/bike with a dog, keep it motivated, most could do an hour or more GSD or not, WL or SL. The dogs gotta want to do it, the drive has to be there, most WL have the drive, SL well some do, some don't.
For you to think you brought out a bright light for everyone to see is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
by SKI on 18 June 2012 - 02:53
|"GSDGuy that owns mostly siberian huskies – still haven’t really figured out why you even post so much on a german shepherd dog board, but anyway. The valid point is that running around a ring is not what you think it is. It is a very intensive examination of the dog’s endurance. Go to any German style show and watch the breathing patterns of the show lines compared to the few working lines that sometimes get entered. You will see with your own eyes how the working lines will be panting up a storm about to fall over from exhaustion when its over. This is ultimately why they don’t place so well, not because they are ugly."|
That is not 100% correct. The problem is that a lot of working line people (and some show) do not ring train and road work the dogs prior to showing. Dogs are not trained for showing.
Some judges run the dogs and some do not; I have been to both types of shows.
I have seen dogs from both lines falling down in the front due to no work done prior to. It is not based on lines; it is based on work prior to showing and running.
by macrowe1 on 18 June 2012 - 02:57
|Oh fasteddielv, maywood did bring out the light! Don't you just want to trade your boy in because he won't do well and is just for obedience? Such BS. Give it a few months when his ugly duckling stage is gone, and I'm sure he'll stack well. He's got a nice coat, rich pigment, and a nice head formation. I'm glad he doesn't look like most SL who are so angulated they're about 4 inches shorter in the back than in the front. I'm sure he'll run circles around the SL, like most of the WL I've seen. But then again, apparently only SL can jog long distances and especially on pavement. Forget those Sibes, they're not meant for running long distances at all :)|
by melba on 18 June 2012 - 03:03
|To the OP, I think your boy quite attractive, even for a gangly puppy. I'd like to bet that he matures out quite nicely. I|
would not want to critique at this stage and without a better picture.
Maywood, we do 7-12 mile jog ever other day with my WL GSDs (3 from completely different lines). You may not consider an
AD a valid test, but my girl was the ONLY one out of the dogs started that day not winded, ready to work. The pace was not fast enough for her
either as her normal speed is around 12 mph, or the 4 wheeler just over 3rd gear. We did not condition for it at all.
A dog that is put together correctly, be it WL or SL should be able to trot efficiently all day. The coat color should make no difference. A good
dog is a good dog regardless of color. I can appreciate that.
by maywood on 18 June 2012 - 03:35
|It is a very bright light because if it wasn’t we would all agree on this topic now wouldn’t we. I can’t really tell you if my wl were the best or not. My current female is a Bastin Kokeltal daughter and even though she is my best tracker, she definitely couldn’t handle the daily jogs. All I do know is that I always invested in the best wl available to me in my area at the time which is what most people try to do I think. |
I actually believe the structure of the German shepherd dog has improved drastically since the 80’s that gives them the ability to be able to trot for longer periods of time nowadays. I personally have noticed much better bone density in today’s show lines and some working lines for that matter. This has also made it feasible for them to do this type of work more easily nowadays. Anyway, as an avid runner, it is fun as hell to get up every morning and take my dogs running just to watch them do what they do best. And yes, I am in very good shape because of them.
Oh for heaven’s sake “Ma Crow” you are just not getting me at all are you? This whole discussion is zooming right over your head and you don’t even realize it. I find it interesting that most working line folks on this board just can’t accept the valid points of where the show lines out performs the working lines in some cases. Of course they are quick to point out how the working line out performs the show lines in their areas of specialty. But they just can’t seem to grasp the fact that the show lines do indeed outperform the working lines in their own specialty areas such as trotting. And those that do will often try to minimize it as if it is no big deal so we don’t even have to consider it in our breeding programs. Was kind of hoping we could all agree on this topic by the end of this discussion but doesn’t appear to be going in that direction does it? Same story different day I guess.
I never said the AD wasn’t a valid test, I’m just saying a structurally well bred shepherd should be able to pass that test with flying colors.
by Jenni78 on 18 June 2012 - 03:53
|Just to clarify, are we all seriously arguing with a drunk?|
by GSDguy08 on 18 June 2012 - 04:00
|Eh, Maywood........when we bike, we go on pavement.......|
by GSDguy08 on 18 June 2012 - 04:03
|I never said the AD wasn’t a valid test, I’m just saying a structurally well bred shepherd should be able to pass that test with flying colors.|
Dogs regardless of lines have to build up endurance. Just like athletes..... You don't just wake up one day, having never trained in your life, never ran in your life.......and go run a marathon. That would be ridiculous and you would tear so many things up in your body.
Oh, and to your "not on pavement" comment......Like I just mentioned we bike on the road, but hey......when they do things off road most of it's up steep hills......
by GSDguy08 on 18 June 2012 - 04:15
|Just to clarify, are we all seriously arguing with a drunk|
Good point, why are we arguing?
Maywood do you have any pictures of your dogs to post? Who knows, maybe yours could out do mine we haven't done much biking or any of that in some time due to the extreme southern heat, but you mentioned in another comment that you got them in your area? (referring to the WL dogs). I doubt everyone on here just got a dog from their local area, many have gotten them from other states, some from other countries.
by maywood on 18 June 2012 - 04:27
|Oh yeah I'm a real drunk alright, god forbid one makes one post in an intoxicated state, admits it and now he's Otis the town drunk. Jenn your attempts at discrediting me are childish. Are you OK with the spelling of my words this time you frickin hippocrit. Maybe I didn't spell that right either so I don't know what I am talking about now. Your types are all the same. Your only goal is build yourself up while tearing everyone else down. I see right through you. Next...|
Hey, I'm just trying to share my experience with yawl because apparently you didn't know this stuff before. Not sure why you think it is necessary to try to discredit me but you can't. Because my words are true. Your just too uninformed to realize it and therefore acknowledge it. Not one of you I can tell have actually put on a pair of sneakers and actually jogged with your dogs. But make no mistake about it, those that do know exactly what I am talking about. Maybe they are just smart enough not to waste their time with the working line deadheads that hang out on this board.
by Siantha on 18 June 2012 - 04:38
|the hole point of the matter relly is if the dog can work it can work if it cant it cant. i have seen and owned WL shepherds who can work and who cannot. some are better at other things that most. i have also seen SL dogs that can work and cannot. no i will not say that a SL will trot longer than a WL theirs just just more pleaseing to look at. but on concrete Any dog can run on concrete for a long distance if they are use to it sir. u cant just take a dog that has ran on dirt and then throw them on concrete they dont wear shoes. you have to work up the toughness of their pads. SLs and WLs i have worked with have both gotten blisters on their feet from running on concrete. i still stick to if the dog can work it can work. not the color of the dog. hence EVERYONE who sees my white female says shes crap ect bla bla. shes the best sent dog i have ever owned that dog just plain loves to use her nose. and a working husky would run circles around Any shepherd on any ground. just because they where bred to run for DAYS with little to no rest. their entire structure is completely different. they are a running breed as a shepherd is a trotter. i have seen labs run for miles with their owners on concrete. apparently they are un able to work aswell. it just is anoying when people are always this is better this is better. it depends on the individual dog u can have the most STUNNING dog in the world that just wants to be a couch potato and a tooth less mottled harless freak that works like no other dog.|
by EuroShepherd on 18 June 2012 - 05:37
When I want to buy a new dog I don't look for the best available in my area, I look for the best available (in my price range) in the world. I have never purchased a GSD from "my area," I've purchased from Germany, Czech Republic and other states in the US (than the state I live in.)
I currently own 5 pure West German Showline German Shepherds, I have also owned workinglines in the past and I have very good friends who own workinglines that I see often.
Thousands of years of canine domestication and it's just the last 20 years that we finally have a dog who can "work more easily"...? No telling how the wild canine species do it.
It is not a fair or correct assessment to give such an extreme stereotype to workinglines that they are not capable of endurance like a showline. There are equal parts of good showlines, good workinglines and poor showlines, poor workinglines. Often the showlines with bad structure or extreme structure perform worse than the workinglines with bad structure.
Ever notice how the schutzhund trials and German show trials are shorter and less demanding now than they were decades ago? It's because of the politics of the popular showline breeders whose dogs were not as capable as previous generations. If you want to talk about dogs who can really trot all day long, for hours and hours...hook up with Ulf Kintzel, North America's best representative for the true German Shepherd herding dog with unending stamina. Those dogs certainly don't look like current showlines.
The above statements are for thread-viewers who may be looking for common sense.
The below statements are for Maywood.
Maywood, as a "dudette" I have to say I'm surprised you are a "dude," not only because of your username and avatar (not that the avatar is particularly feminine, but the majority of the time I only see girls/women with romanticized wildlife) but also because your writing style just strikes me as being feminine. Does anyone else feel this?
Also, I'm curious...I've never tried jogging for an hour while being hungover, how did that go?
Jenni, yes we are, I needed the amusement during my short breaks throughout my day. Thank you to all who contributed.
by macrowe1 on 18 June 2012 - 12:24
|Euro I really did think it was a "dudette". But he or she could sit there and argue with a brick wall about how SL are so much better than WL because they can jog long distances on pavement, while WL are just for obedience. Well I hate to tell you that my Vizsla could outrun your SL shep any day, any distance, and in any heat on any terrain, but I don't think he's cream of the crop by any means. I'm sure GSDGuy's Sibes could outdo a SL, too, that's what they're bred for. And you can say all this is over my head because I do not agree with any of your points thus far. The SL and WL are bred for different things, but to say that the WL's endurance is not up to par with the SL is ridiculous.|