German Shepherd Dog > Expert Opinions on this SL linebreeding for working abilities (64 replies)
by JudyK on 17 June 2012 - 16:19
|One thing you have to watch with Ghandi is hips. Even though he produces great working ability this has to be a consideration in my opinion. |
Very nice female Debby and I'm sure you will have an awesome litter.
by Gustav on 17 June 2012 - 22:28
|Hi Debbie, I guess we look at things a little differently. I use the word linebreeding for seeing the same dog on both sides of the pedigree in first five generations. I use backmassing, to designate a dog that almost all lines go back to the same dog or dogs in say ten generations of a pedigree. Your female may not be linebred per se, but she surely is backmassed on Quanto and Canto. Now if you are going to take her to a dog that is also backmassed on these two dogs, you may get a short term improvement at expense of long term entrenchment of negative recessives. Neither Canto or Quanto were dogs without faults, and frankly I would run away from any type of line that led back to Canto in numerous instances. So the question becomes do you want to improve and strengthen this area so to speak or do you want to put a band-aid on the situation. Why? Because lets extend this breeding....where do you go with the puppies of this breeding. You don't want to go to Canto strong SL, cause you will pick up a connection with that females line you think is weak. You can't keep going to Quanto strong lines, you are already over the top with Quanto blood through Cello, Lasso, and many other Quanto derivatives. And everytime you go to Quanto, you are strengthening the Canto aspect because the Quanto strong dogs, still have Canto in the pedigree as the second most backmassed dog. So you still strengthen the negative traits Canto was known for in terms of temperament and nerve strength. So where do you go? Realistically, A good litter should have maybe 2 or 3 dogs that are excellent in structure, maybe 2 dogs that are very good in structure, maybe 2 dogs that are good in structure, and probably one that has a disqualifying fault. But of the 7 or 8 pups, 6 or 7 should be strong in nerve and temperament. If you breed for 6 out of eight dogs to have excellent structure(uniformity), then you are going to have to go to only certain dogs to continue the type established. Eventually you run out of hybrid vigor, and you get increased health, temperament, problems though you may have your type. So now you have a litter with 6 out of eight pups uniform in type, but 2 have health issues(allergic, bloat, epi, dm, etc), and three have less than stellar temperament, not withstanding issues such as HD, Elbows, oversize, etc. I would rather see a litter with 7 out of 8 pups with strong nerve, maybe 2 pups are excellent in structure, maybe 2 are SG, and the others can still be working dogs or great pets.|
My point is where are you going to go with these pups in terms of genetics.....without increasing the backmassing and eventually getting to the point that 6 out of 8 pups are not strong in temperament though they are uniform. But all the uniform lines will carry the same weaknesses you are trying to get away from.
That's why when Mutz progeny was still part of the SL equation, SL breeders had a dog to improve temperament both genetically and phenotype. Mutz did not go back to the L litter Wienerau like Quanto and Canto.(I'm pretty sure its the L litter, but I know they both go back to the early Wienerau dogs). But because Mutz progeny didn't give the red and the extra extreme gait the SL went into, his influence waned. SL breeders thought they could compensate with Quanto only progeny, but as the years have gone by the color has deepened, and the gait is flowing, but the temperament that the Mutz type dogs had is all but gone....and right now this is what I think you need to breed to Vogue so that there is a pathway after that litter. Just an alternate view.
by Red Sable on 17 June 2012 - 22:35
|Love your posts Gustav, I know I've said that before, but I'll say it again. I'm glad you are breeding GSD's.|
Are you single? ;)
by djc on 17 June 2012 - 23:00
|Awesome Gustav!! OK, can I ask anyone for any help on suggestions on a sl with mostly Mutz background? I'm game and I certainly am all for improving for the long term. :) I of course will be researching also... but there is a vast # of dogs to go through when you start coming up through Mutz. My first stud dog carried some Mutz and I do have some frozen from him. But the question is did he have enough Mutz because he has lots of Quanto and some Canto too. He also went back to some really old asl, but I trusted his breeder that they were hand picked good ones, as she was from Germany and knew what she was doing. He was an awesome working sl dog!|
Here's his ped for observation.... http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=121549&p=6-generation-pedigree
The other thing is, is that she is just beginning the breeding phase of her life and has many litters to work toward many combinations.
by JudyK on 17 June 2012 - 23:26
|Debby, contact Tracy Bullinger. She has lines that go back to Mutz and she does a lot to preserve that Mutz connection. I can't name any of her current dogs right off the top of my head but I do know that she is a big Mutz fan. Both your Yentel and my Hannah go back to Mutz through their mother, Ulli. |
by djc on 18 June 2012 - 02:36
|I'll do that Judy, thanks. I know her old lines were that way, but I don't think the new lines are... but I will leave that for her to tell me.|
I am running down the "reverse line breeding" on Mutz. The highest SZ numbers I am finding are 180's... so that puts us into the 80's and early 90's. Which is fine... BUT I seem to be running into LOTS of NZ dogs in the first 3 generations AND seems that most of the line's on Mutz have TRIPLE the lining on Canto!!! Here's an example: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1442 I guess that's how the SV wanted it back then, to keep the conformation and movement they wanted. Just makes my job really hard...
Gustav... what do you have??!! lol
by djc on 18 June 2012 - 03:15
|Look what I found....Griff is a direct father line back to Mutz through Dux, Hill, Huppy etc|
by Gustav on 18 June 2012 - 12:49
|Debby', it is very difficult to find Mutz dominated lines if at all. I remember that Vaneda of Buluga kennels had a nice male named Zulu who had a strong Mutz mix. I think Zulu placed in top 10V dogs at the Seiger show. I worked this dog and was in sch club with him. A really strong dog by any standard. I think Tracey is a good resource for where strong Mutz may be. But you are pursuing the worse pathway. There is a reason you see a lot of Canto and Mutz in early nineties and eighties. He provided the balance needed to Canto lines. Unfortunately, thr Sl world in America and Germany does not have a path out within the lines they currently use. That's why minimal improvement is taking place in working temperament in past25 years. This is because these breeders breed pheno and geno for the show world. Now if you came to me and said I need you to find a strong nerves Sl dog for your female, then I would research and develop contacts in the SL in Czech/Slovakia/ Hungarian kennels. These countries have remained much truer to requiring their SL to be able to work to be breed worthy. The SL I have seen from these countries seem to almost always be superior in working temperament than what I am accustomed to see from Germany/America. They have a stronger phenotype SL dog because of their priorities than do the others. Still, ultimately the introduction of WL with good structure and type is the only long term answer to this bottleneck. Breeders have to take a couple steps backwards in the ring to ultimately have the long term quality that will continue. You see Debby at some point the public is going to value between the ears over the pleasing look. This happened to ASL. You always want to be ahead of the curve instead of behind it. JMO|
by GSDfan053 on 18 June 2012 - 13:27
|Looking at that linebreeding and Vogue pedigree on WinSiS-Cat, I noticed that she has elbow displasia.|
I am not an expert, but why would you breed a dog with displasia knowing that her offspring won't be registered with SV and won't be able to participate in some of their programs?
by Dog1 on 18 June 2012 - 15:20
|OFFA website has Vogue's hips and elbows results as good/normal.|
by Gustav on 18 June 2012 - 15:41
|BTW, you think its a coincidence in Griff's working ability and his genotype going back to Mutz as well as Quanto?|
by ziegenfarm on 18 June 2012 - 15:58
|i realize this is a sl thread so i will make this short. jmho, but mutz may be playing a large part in why the timmy/troll breedings are showing success. if you were willing to cross over to wl for 1 generation and then back to sl, you might consider a fero linebred dog. timmy/troll breedings seem to be pretty well balanced dogs with trainability.|
by GSDfan053 on 18 June 2012 - 16:16
We all know OFA elbows ratings are not recognized by SV for KKL or show.
In your eyes is she breed worthy?
Can Vogue get a "V" rating in Germany, can she do it at WDA shows?
The answer is; No, she cannot.
Let's assume I will buy a puppy from this litter. After countless hours of training and a lot of money invested in a dog, Will I be able to succeed in a show ring in Germany?
Will I be able to get a "VA" rating at the WDA Sieger Show?
Again, the answer is "NO".
by djc on 18 June 2012 - 18:01
|Vogue had an injury and in Germany when the xrays were taken, the elbows were not suppose to be sent in and then were by the vet. After her recovery she was able to pass OFA, but the SV will not allow resubmission. So no, SHE will not be able to show in Germany any more or the WDA. But that does not apply to the puppies in the WDA nor USCA. She IS V rated with a kkl 1 and her final kkl will be done by an SV judge making it valid for the WDA. There is no problem unless someone wants to go to Germany and truly how many really ever do that or have the desire to do that! Travel is just way too expensive to make it worth it. I think it's safe to say that a US bred dog has NEVER made the German VA list!! V's are a dime a dozen in Germany also. Isn't the point to breed a dog that is improving the breed in all areas and NOT depending totally on VA show ratings? The value is in the improvement of what's far better than the norm. A VA is a rare rating in the first place and it's value lies with those that are looking at conformation. A USCA VA rating is just as valuable as the WDA VA rating, if it comes down to that. My highest value comes in the improvement of the total dog, work, conformation, temperament and health. NOT just show ratings. USCA rating is just fine for me and the vast majority of US GSD people!|
I'll let Randy speak for himself! lol
Rita, why would you make a new identity for yourself just to post on this thread? lol
by GSDfan053 on 18 June 2012 - 18:36
|Thank you Debby for an explanation.|
by Dog1 on 18 June 2012 - 20:20
| I was meerly pointing out a possible descrepancy in information.|
Interesting discussion about the affect on the dogs career. Both views are correct. The WDA has eliminated many dogs as a result of the elbow certification, specifically, by not recognizing the OFA results. Two of those were mine who came along around the time the rules were changed.
No one believes the OFA is not qualified to examine the results. It's just that they have not gone through the same certification process as they did with their hips to be recognized.
Seems one or both organizations would be concerned and follow up with the OFA and push the acceptance of OFA elbows so both OFA elbows and hips would be recognized and relieve this counrty of the very situation we are discussing here and a few others. I guess no one really has a dog in the fight. Heck they would actually be undermining one of their own products/services offered if they did. No need to really push for something that would cause loss of whatever revenue they receive from the 'a' stamp program.
Anyway, The question of breedworthyness in a situation where one parent cannot V rate or get a survey in Germany is exactly the justification used by the WDA to adopt the SV regulations in it's entirity. He were have the example of what they were trying to protect us from in a real life example. USA on the otherhand made a slight exception. Result, at least three excellent dogs were not 'ruled' or 'legislated' out of the breed.
We have a female that will simply not cut it by the rules of Germany. Why breed her? Does the breed really need to take the chance? Put this question up on PDB and I'll guarantee you 99.9% will simply and smugly say there are enough dogs out there, why take a chance and be done with the discussion. No one would dispute or defend it because it makes no sense too. There simply are not enough people out there that would see through the discussion to warrant exposing yourself to the differing opinion.
This dog is caught in a technicality. She herself, her parents, and many of the parents offspring are certified. I don't see a history of/or a problem. It appears there is as good a chance as any of not having any issues with hips or elbows.
What to decide? We are at a time in the breed where the demand for working ability is increasing. The awareness for better working ability within the conformation lines and better conformation within the working lines is here. The conformation people don't have to look very far to see the shortcomings and the results. This comes at a time when only a precious few dogs that come from dogs that can actually produce working ability exist. (By the way, both conformation line dogs representing the US at the WUSV Universal Championship come from these dogs, it's no coincidence).
Would I breed a female that has certified hips and elbows, from parents with certified hips and elbows, that is SchH3 and breed surveyed under the USA guidelines, from one of the precious few dogs remaining and probably THE best producer of working ability, who herself exhibits the strength of the ancestors from which she came, at a time the breed is just about totally lacking what this female has to offer?
Let me think about it and I'll get back to you.
by Gustav on 18 June 2012 - 20:59
|As Dog1 so logically laid out, she does have good accomplishments and better genetics than most SL dogs. The question still remains where do you go to breed this female and her progeny, to strengthen what you are trying to strengthen in the line? Yes, there are some lines from Troll that go back to Mutz from some nice V rated stock. There are some lines through the Maineche lines that go back to VA Marko vom Cellerland that is V rated stock. Both of these solutions as pjp referred would help nerve, temperament, genetics, with minimal structural alteration in just one generation. Or is it that color is more important than improvement. The logics that Dog1 laid out so beautifully to breed her, seems to stop when the logic to improve working capacity enters it. Seriously, I understand why the resistance is there....lol, but I can't condone fad over sensible no matter what the rating it will get me.|
by djc on 18 June 2012 - 21:14
Could you explain to me where Zambo's genetic working abilities come from? Not being an expert, it's hard for me to see it. I'm not insulting the dog in any way!!! Gosh, he and Erin are just amazing to say the least!! But I just am not familiar with how the work comes through his lines.
Thanks in advance
by djc on 18 June 2012 - 21:26
As I have explained before, I do not follow fad and am nothing if not sensible. She has time for several litters and the whole reason I posted this was to get expert advice. I think I have gotten that from several, especially you! I value it all, believe me! It will all be taken into account in all of her future litters. I certainly am not opposed to w/s crosses and have done quite a few, so that advice does not fall on deaf ears for sure! Why would you think that Dog1 is suggesting fad? Or am I taking that statement wrongly?
BTW Dog1 has interacted with Vogue in person and that's why he knows she carries the strength of her ancestors.
by djc on 18 June 2012 - 23:30
|OK, so I am coming up through Mutz and not worrying about line breedings on him.... I am looking at dogs that I like the looks of and then looking at their pedigree making sure it has no Canto or very little anyway, lots of V and VA ratings and good hips, titled etc.... I find this dog that I like very much! http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450318 I LOVE the Tiekerhook lines!! Have some and they are awesome.... Anyway.... DAMN!!!!!! WHY did they go and breed 2 NZ's for the mother line and get a dysplastic mother (duh) and breed HER!!!??? Gees!! |
Oh well, on with the search...