German Shepherd Dog > What is considered reasonable (58 replies)
by joanro on 14 June 2012 - 16:27
|I realize this question is off topic, but what exactly is the percentage of DM in the gsd breed overall? OFA has the percentage for HD, so what is it for DM. I have seen GSDs for at least fifty years, have never seen one with diagnosed DM. I have , on the other hand, seen several with hd.|
by beetree on 14 June 2012 - 16:56
|Joanro, I think the test for it isn't even ten years old, so the numbers just aren't there. Unfortunately, I did not have to be around 50 years with GSD's to see this disease, and to know I would gladly pay for the test, just to avoid it again.|
by Keith Grossman on 14 June 2012 - 17:05
|"Well Jen take it however you want; it is not for me, it is for the breed. DM is everywhere, not just the US. And I hope breeders understand that it is now very reasonable and reliable and is just a cheek swab or I believe can be a blood draw for some tests."|
But Jenn is right; the current test for DM looks for a mutation in the SOD1 gene which is apparently not the gene most often responsible for the condition in GSD's. German Shepherd Dog Myelopathy (GSDM) is considered unique to the breed so a clear test from the OFFA doesn't mean that your dog doesn't have it or isn't a carrier.
by beetree on 14 June 2012 - 17:20
|Not sure if you are saying that accurately, yourself Keith. Yes, there is plenty of wiggle room to convince oneself not to test. It is just that any one who has had a dog with DM will still want to test with what is available, because the disease is just that bad.|
by darylehret on 14 June 2012 - 17:31
|If I were the buyer, I'd expect to fairly lay down $2500 to $3500, pending certain details. Likely no more, or no less.|
by darylehret on 14 June 2012 - 17:33
|Negative for mad cow disease? I'd make sure.|
by GSDPACK on 14 June 2012 - 17:33
|If people feel more comfortable with testing for DM, let them test! If a DM test is a deal breaker for a good home, I will let the interested party test the dog. I have done that and I am not opposed to that at all.|
I just fear that many good dogs will be eliminated from the pool because they are at risk. Just because a dog is at risk, does not mean the dog will have DM. That is my fear. We don't know how it really works in regards the possibility to really develop a DM in a dog. I however know that it is possible as my friend had a dog with it in Czech and it was not a pretty sight.
Test for it if you want; I would like to have more research done before I eliminate a dog from breeding. Maybe that is why I spend hours in the genetics field, more I read and study, less I know.... it is a tool, use it but don't be blinded by it.
by Keith Grossman on 14 June 2012 - 17:54
|"Not sure if you are saying that accurately, yourself Keith. Yes, there is plenty of wiggle room to convince oneself not to test. It is just that any one who has had a dog with DM will still want to test with what is available, because the disease is just that bad."|
What I am saying is that there is documented evidence of at least one GSD who tested clear (homozygous for the normal form of the SOD1 gene) who was found to have DM upon necropsy. Just out of curiousity, why is this test, which doesn't prove the absence of DM in the GSD, more important than, say, the test for von Willebrand Disease or ANA, for example, which are definitive for those conditions?
by darylehret on 14 June 2012 - 18:04
|I'm not against testing, not if there's a CHANCE of the test being accurate. But if the test doesn't even test the markers found in the GSD breed for positive DM identification, then what's the point?! You would have just as good a chance (or better) testing for Lou Gherrig's disease as designed for humans.|
by darylehret on 14 June 2012 - 18:06
|And I am definitely NOT FOR making people feel comfortable by perpetuating a myth.|
by beetree on 14 June 2012 - 18:15
|Keith: My guess is the breeders have addressed those diseases since, in their breedings, and as you can see, some breeders seem not to have DM on their radar at all. Not to mention the vets who never mentioned all those doomed paralyzed dogs that could have had DM prior to 2008, as was my case, but I do not want to derail. |
I agree with GSDPACK on her post, really. I think it would be nice if breeders were curious enough to test their own stock, but if they don't, I would ask to do it as a condition on the purchase. That makes perfect and easy sense to me.
by Keith Grossman on 14 June 2012 - 18:26
|"My guess is the breeders have addressed those diseases since, in their breedings, and as you can see, some breeders seem not to have DM on their radar at all." |
In my case, Axel's breeder is a vet and she tests for a laundry list of conditions including those I mentioned but not DM, simply because a clear test doesn't mean the dog is actually clear. I'm sure that when a test becomes available that is reliable and accurate for GSD's, she will add that to the list of things for which she currently tests.
by beetree on 14 June 2012 - 18:34
|Yes, that is the black and white of it, I agree. I suppose it makes no sense to do the only testing available, to anyone except a person who has had a dog suffer through DM.|
by Keith Grossman on 14 June 2012 - 18:43
|"Yes, that is the black and white of it, I agree. I suppose it makes no sense to do the only testing available, to anyone except a person who has had a dog suffer through DM."|
How would having your dog tested and getting a false negative result have changed the outcome?
by beetree on 14 June 2012 - 18:47
|Keith, it is called peace of mind, mine! I am hoping to lessen the odds of one type or another, is the best I got. So I am going for it. I recognize I might not get what I want, I really do.|
by mollyandjack on 14 June 2012 - 18:48
|I just don't see how the test, in it's current state, is any more accurate or useful than knowledge of the health and longevity of the dogs in a pedigree?|
by Keith Grossman on 14 June 2012 - 19:23
|"Keith, it is called peace of mind, mine! I am hoping to lessen the odds of one type or another, is the best I got. So I am going for it. I recognize I might not get what I want, I really do."|
Ok. I understand that due to your experience this is a very emotional topic for you and yes, having the OFFA test done should tell you definitively whether or not your dog is a carrier of or is afflicted with the type of DM that is most common amongst other breeds and sometimes afflicts GSD's as well. If it makes you more comfortable to test for it, you should.
At the same time, I'm trying to let others know that there is another type of DM that is apparently specific to our breed for which there is no test currently. Hopefully, some day there will be because this form of the disease is much more severe and much more debilitating.
by joanro on 14 June 2012 - 21:08
|Just trying to get an idea of the occurrence..... Is it one in every litter? One in every two litters? Only certain families, or all GSDs will produce numerous afflicted offspring? Too bad there isn't a DNA test for dogs destined to be hit by a vehicle or develop cancer. Not trying to be snarky, just attempting to put things into perspective.|
by beetree on 14 June 2012 - 21:37
|I don't know the numbers but anecdotally someone could count the numbers of dogs admittedly afflicted on this board since we've been talking about this, for what, less than a year? Frankly, I am surprised at the number of names I am familiar with in the five years I've been posting that have gone through this with a dog. If it were so rare, how could I "know" of so many sad stories? How's that for perspective, and I am not being snarky, either.|
I think it would be certain families or lines. If owners of afflicted dogs, especially those of the aggressive form would contact UofM to offer necropsies, it would further the research, and there might be more answers to all the questions.
by Ramage on 14 June 2012 - 22:04
|If the DM test really bothers somebody, why not do a sale pending DM results and let the interested party pay for it?|