German Shepherd Dog > Please....anyone....I'd really appreciate feedback.... (68 replies)
by GSD Justice on 04 July 2009 - 23:01
I read your post about the former Schh member. I laughed until my side hurt. It reminds me of a Family Guy episode where Peter has the envy you refer.
Someone busted my chops because I did not spell Shiloh correctly. I honestly guessed at the spelling. I met a Shiloh dog about 10 years ago was amazed at the lack of drive, lack of intimidation factor, and ease in handling. A lab?
Let's play head doctor for a second. What attracts me to the GSD? Well, the traits of the founding father. A dog that can herd (work) and protect. I had a dog just like Tina Barber I bought in 1994 for $700. She was a wash out in Schh trials. I met the owner, a lady, who kenneled my male GSD. The way I would describe him is "Silver Back". He had testicles like oranges and a head like a lion. No, I had no envy.
She was scared to death of him but handled him, groomed him, and once he got unruly when I came to pick him up scruffed him until he pissed.
I bought the dog as a companion to my male dog. She was concerned but needed to make the sale since the female she owned was damaged goods. My wife and I used to call her the "non" shepherd. We were used to the strong will, drive, and protective nature that required thinking to train. Dean Calderon says listen to the dog. A wise comment indeed. Some dogs will work for food while others will only work for the collar. I have two GSD's that are motivated by one thing-play time. Both dogs are hard as nails but will do anything I ask of them if they know they can play ball at some point.
We loved our "non" shepherd but she was just a family pet. She learned to actually control our male. We let her take pack order over him to make sure he never hurt her. Our entire family was by her side when we put her down. She had the cancer and it took over her colon, stomach, and was moving into other areas. She is buried just off my deck and I visit her almost every day. The male, my old timer, was buried next to her and my current dogs watch me bury him. An old Indian tradition. My dogs visit the grave immediately when they go out to pay respects.
I loved my girl to death even though she would not even chase a ball. However, there is something I love above training a hard wired GSD. I trained my dogs for over 3 hours today and almost got nicked twice. I have been bitten in training several times on the fingers, shoulders, and hands. Yesterday, my male re-griped the ball and my heart raced in fear. There is no envy here. Just flat out respect. I respect the intelligence, the relationship needed to train a driven dog, and the power these guys possess.
The United States Surpreme Court ruled on a case involving GSDs. The case centered around whether the dog biting a suspect was cruel and unusal punishment. The Court said no it was not. I am sure the Court understood that GSDs are used in Police work, military, govt security (officials and tracking), and home defense. Our highest Court in the land gets it. The GSD is a guardian of its handler which happens to be mostly JUSTICE-domestic and abroad.
I have met nuts all over the world. I have found Schh club members very dedicated to their dogs. They will feed their kids McDonalds but on prime grade A meat for the dog!! Your supporter sounds scorned and maybe has some envy too.
Tina Barber "spun off" from the GSD breed and the AKC let her. You don't see the Schh world accepting Shilohs for good reason. I wish you the best truly. <
by VKFGSD on 05 July 2009 - 03:26
|Sunsilver, I too do not want to turn this thread into a forum re Shilohs but I feel I must correct some information you posted to wit " Tina bred her Shilohs because of what she saw happening to the American GSD. You've been around long enough to know what happened during the 60's when the German and American dogs went their separate ways, and the American dogs began to develop weak nerves, bad hips and overstreched, overangulated bodies" Please note that this is not mere history for me - I was there and still have the magazines and catalogs and books and memories of the time. |
1. Tina was breeding oversized GSDs (often longcoats) long long before any bifurcation of the breed. It had NOTHING to do w/ weak nerves , overangulation etc. There were some damn nice dogs in the 60s and 70s - Take a look at their pictures on the link below. As I said above she needed a schtick to distinguish herself from the rest of the commercial breeders. Her spiel even in those days was that she was breeding the "old fashioned" GSD which even at the time was an outright lie. The standard until 1968 had both height and weight limits ( 45 -65 lbs for a bitch) and the Germans were far stricter than Americans in enforcing height limits.
2. The bifurcation of the breed ( German/American Working/ show ) did not really come about until the very late 70s to the early 80s NOT in the 60s and by 1974 Tina was already positioning herself as a separate breed "Shilohs" tho she continued to register them as AKC GSDs for some time. If you check here http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/GrandVictors.html you can get a flavor for how and when breeding changed. For the decade from 1960 to 1970 there were 10 Grand Victors represented by 9 dogs ( Mike won it 2x). Of these 10 - 5 were German imports, 1 the son of an import and 3 Grandsons of German imports. Look at Lance's pedigree he really has a very German pedigree which is one reason he crossed so well with the Mike stuff which went back to the old American lines from the 30s to the 50s. It is only in the 80s that we start to see the diversion to the more extreme dogs ( hawkeye, hammer, crusader, dakota) but even then there were some decent dogs with fairly close up German crosses.
3. Tina much trumpets her supposed emphasis on hips and her LMX program yet the statistics show that her Shilohs have a higher incidence of CHD and a much lower rate of Xrays than GSDs and if you wander thru the db you find darn few dogs that have LMX info. http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html
4. Tina is and has always been a consumate salesperson and creative writer - often I believe in the mode ot the revisionist school of historians to justify current events. The reality is she was ("By the late seventies I had over a hundred dogs in kennel, and produced dozens of litters per year." kennel of origin history) and is a very large commercial producer of animals ( averaging 20 litters a year) who is willing to sell you "Puppies with serious faults, such as: gun shyness, severe under bite, multiple minor faults, or a diagnosed/physical handicap (such as a heart murmur)," for a mere $1000 from http://www.newzionshilohs.org/nzsPolicyPrices.htm . Good gig if you have the stomach for it - I don't and certainly this is not a role model I would recommend to anyone.
by Sunsilver on 05 July 2009 - 04:05
|VKF, I've gotten into some heated discussions on the PDB over Shilohs in the past, as I have friends in the breed, and am on their forum daily. However, I, too, have no desire to get into a discussion right now, and certainly not in this thread.|
I may send you a PM on the subject later when I'm not quite so tired.
BTW, I look at the watershed year for the American/German split as being 1967, with Lance taking GV, and Bodo v. Lierberg unable to get better than Special Select. It took awhile, but it was all downhill from there due to excessive linebreeding on Lance and his progeny.
by VKFGSD on 05 July 2009 - 04:48
|Ah but it took more than another decade before the inbreeding on Lance trumped all else, which as noted puts us in very late 70s early 80s before any real bifurcation. In between there were some very nice dogs and even today there are some nice ones usually who hark back to dam lines based on solid German lines from the 60s and 70s.|
by Mystere on 05 July 2009 - 13:37
|Bondos mom has received very good information and advice all over the pdb. I think it has been summed up correctly she is going to do what she is going to do. She really doesn't want to learn, and does want to make money off dogs. The "bashing" of schutzhund and any effort to show is simply a rationalization to not do a blinking thing with her breeding stock, other than the money-making breeding. There are some excellent posts on this thread and I hope that they serve to help some of the newbies reading them. Clara, obviously, will not be among them.|
by animules on 06 July 2009 - 01:47
|Mystere, that was apparent very quickly........|
by bondos mom on 06 July 2009 - 02:14
|o.k. you all have convinced me of what a bad person I am so here is what I have decided to do. Since I already have the 3 miniature schnauzers who are older, I am going ahead and breed my 2 females to my male schnauzer and invent a new breed, the Miniman Schnauperd. I have moved them all to one of the foreclosed homes I bought and I parked my Porche in the driveway and chained them all to it so they can go under it for shelter. I did dig a big hole in the driveway so it would fill up with water when it rains and they can get water. Hopefully a wild animal will run by occasionally and they can eat. Hmmm, what else....ah, heck, thats all the meanness I can come up with right now, but I'm sure I'll come up with more since I am such an evil person|
by Mystere on 06 July 2009 - 02:49
|Remember your words, Clara, because they are going to come back to bite you. Your post wasn't "mean," just stupid and petulant. Not that you hadn't already exhibited those qualities, and I am sure that you WILL exhibit even more. :-( ¶ That crappy attitude pretty much sums you up. When you come back with a real issue (and people like you always do!!), that crap is what you will have to surmount first. Nobody wants to waste their time and effort on anyone like that. Goodbye, so long, au revoir, sayonara, dosvedonya, arrivaderci, hasta la vista, toodle-loo and adios!|
by Sunsilver on 06 July 2009 - 02:55
Atta girl, bondo's mom!
As for online stuff, Linda Shaw's lliustrated breed standard is a great tool:
If you are serious about GSD's, read and study it carefully. It's a good starting point, But just a starting point. I think I have nearly 100 GSD related links bookmarked on my computer, and I am adding to and updating thme all the time.
by SitasMom on 06 July 2009 - 04:09
|Sita (long stockhaar) is going for her first title, she will have her hips and elbows certified, she will also have thyroid, heart, and all other certifications done, then I may or may not breed her - most likely not. She has such intelligents, drive, endurance and such a good nose, I'd hate to loose it, but her coat is a most definate falt. The new SV thing is nice, but I don't know if its the right thing to do.|
Have your dogs titled and certified before you do any breeding......... herding, SchH, SAR, Agility, any working title. That is the minimum you can do and it is consistant with the German way of breeding........A german shepherd must be worthy of breeding by prooving it is good enough to hold a working title. Then have your dogs checked out by the local german shepherd clubs and ask for their opinions. Insist that they tell you all of the bad things about your dog(s) as well as the good. Many times you must read between the lines when it comes to negitive comments.
They ask them what would stop you from breeding this dog.............LISTEN, LEARN AND FROM THEM!
by VKFGSD on 06 July 2009 - 11:29
I find your atta girl to Clara interesting re bullies and rude people. Since I seem to be the focus of Clara's angst and supposedly because of me her refusal to attempt to learn or do right by the breed or her dogs ( tho I think if you read her posts you will find that was all there before I chipped in), it would seem I must fall into one of those two categories.
I was going to take you to task because I truly did and do not feel that I am a bully and I really did not feel that I was rude given the facts on hand. What I said was plain spoken and directed to the point of getting Clara to wake up and smell the coffee.
Now unlike Clara, I truly do have a lifelong interest in learning and so as a result I learned something new. Given the definitions of both rude and bully there are some interpretations of each word that might apply which I have noted in bold. Still don't think the others apply however except maybe to some of the comments Clara has made.
Definition of rude 1. Relatively undeveloped; primitive 2. Exhibiting a marked lack of skill or precision in work 3.Lacking the graces and refinement of civilized life; uncouth 4. Lacking education or knowledge; unlearned 5. Ill-mannered; discourteous 6. Vigorous, robust, and sturdy 7.Abruptly and unpleasantly forceful: as in received a rude shock 8. insulting or impolite 9. vulgar or obscene 10. unexpected and unpleasant: as in we received a rude awakening 11.roughly or crudely made 12. lacking refinement 13. socially incorrect in behavior 14.lacking civility or good manners and Synonyms - impolite, insulting, cheeky, abrupt, short, blunt, abusive, curt, churlish, disrespectful, brusque, offhand, impertinent, insolent, inconsiderate, peremptory, impudent, discourteous, uncivil, unmannerly, ill-mannered
Definition of bully 1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people 2. A hired ruffian; a thug 3. A pimp. 4.Archaic A fine person 5. Archaic A sweetheart 6. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner 7.To make (one's way) aggressively 6. a person who hurts, persecutes, or intimidates weaker people 8. discourage or frighten with threats or a domineering manner Synonyms - persecute, intimidate, torment, hound, oppress, pick on, victimize, terrorize, push around (slang) ill-treat, ride roughshod over, maltreat, tyrannize, overbear ,force, coerce, railroad (informal) bulldoze (informal) dragoon, pressurize, browbeat, cow, hector, press-gang, domineer.
I still believe that what I said was plain spoken and I merely called a spade a spade or in this case an emerging puppy mill what it is, so for that I do not apologize. Yes perhaps abrupt and unpleasantly forceful and unexpected by Clara but I believe appropriate to the level of her delusion and her own intransigency (refusing to change one's attitude ) and the danger she and her like present to our breed.
by VKFGSD on 06 July 2009 - 12:45
I am not sorry for the research I did into your email address - you learn much about people that way. And no I did not make anything up that is not my style. My style is to never rely soley on one piece of info but to always make sure there is other info that combined with the first verifies the connection because I truly do understand that the web is the wild wild west and there is much commonality of information out there. In this case that was your name Clara and the email address. First of all yahoo does NOT allow duplicate email addresses and even IF they did statistically what do you think the chances are that person would just happen to have the same name as you- and a fairly uncommon one at that. Unfortunately for you the stats work against you. Anyone, even you, can do the same exact thing that I did and get the same results.
It is unfortunate that you have chosen to get so bent out of shape by the realities ot the internet world and worse yet use that as an excuse to shut out some very good advice ( ergo advice you did not want and do not want to hear). For example, I notice that you are conveniently ignoring TIG's excellent post and the tough quetions inherent in it, just as you ignored other good advice you have received.
I would suggest you reread this thread - with an open mind - it is no coincidence that so many unrelated people have used the same words - STOP, LEARN, LISTEN.
Which leaves me with still the same question for you.
If it's not about the money (which you claim it is not) - why not accept the challenge I posed. It's very doable and both you and your dogs will benefit from it and you STILL get the breed the girls at the end of the three years if that is what you are bent on doing.
Please note no one said you had to associate with anyone on this board to achieve this.
by starrchar on 06 July 2009 - 12:51
Rarely does one convince or influence another person with harshness and unkind words, but I do hope, for the sake of the German Shepherd breed, you are able to sift through the harshness and listen to the real message. If you want to be an ethical German Shepherd owner and breeder you will heed the excellent advice you received on this thread.
by bondos mom on 06 July 2009 - 20:50
|O.K. to the one who is so convinced of the "information" they found about me by "researching the web"..... PLEASE look to your "sources" and find out for me where my Porche' is and all of the homes I have purchased----PLEASE, because I can't seem to find them or know anything at all about them!! PLEASE do this for me and post it here for everyone to see, and then they can all come visit me and I PROMISE YOU ALL A RIDE IN MY PORCHE!! Please do this much for me!! And one thing....if I have all this money for my Porche and foreclosure investments, shouldn't it be evident that I have no need to make money from dogs? Or is selling dogs how I plan to purchase my next fleet of sportscars and homes?|
by SitasMom on 06 July 2009 - 21:40
The standard until 1968 had both height and weight limits ( 45 -65 lbs for a bitch) and the Germans were far stricter than Americans in enforcing height limits.
How exactly was the pre 1968 standard written and what were the changes?
by VKFGSD on 07 July 2009 - 00:25
|Sitasmon, Unfortunately my archives of GSD material is boxed and stored right now so I can't pull out an old standard and do a line by line for you. If memory serves the biggest change was the removal of the weight limits ( this is America and we do like to supersize everything it seems - even our dogs). This was the AKC standard that I am talking about and in those days that was all there was - there were no German style shows for many many years. The height limits remained the same (22-24 inches for bitches and 24-26 for males) but especially in the 70s and 80s were routinely ignored. While our standard has always had height limits GSDs were not a breed where the wicket ( measuring stick) was applied.|
by Mystere on 07 July 2009 - 00:46
|Clara, Clara, Clara... GREED and EGO speak volumes.|
by Poopyscoopy on 07 July 2009 - 00:57
|Wow- what a waste of space this thread is taking. VKFGSD- good advice you have given. I love a good challenge!|
by VKFGSD on 07 July 2009 - 01:01
You are displaying two classic dog traits. Fear biting and avoidance. Fear biting is usually only displayed by animals with severe temperment and character faults. Avoidance, a lesser response, also occurs when an animal lacks the temperament, character or nerve to deal with the situation they are. For example in herding if a dog is unsure, afraid or stressed a common avoidance behavior is to eat sheep poop. You, my dear are eating sheep poop.
by Poopyscoopy on 07 July 2009 - 01:10
LOL! I take it back- it's just getting good- I didn't know when stressed they would eat- sheep-poo!