German Shepherd Dog > It is time to look back and see what we are doing! (55 replies)
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 16:33
|Stats are interesting, but often skewed and I'm not sure what they prove unless the thinking is that if WL 's do produce less HD in the progeny, then their gene pool is freer of the HD genes or there is something about their anatomy that prevents or retards the development of HD.|
All I know is that SL breeders I associate with rarely get HD in their litters anymore. I don't know how many WL breeders do or don't.
by CMathis on 08 June 2012 - 16:41
|I guess we can all agree what we are doing is not erradicating HD in our dogs. If it was as simple as breeding normal to normal hips we would very rarely see HD.|
Have any of you considered using PennHip as an indicator of HD? The idea is that tighter hips = less HD. It makes sense to me.
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 16:47
|Thanks for the suggestion. It makes sense to me. Penn Hip wasn't around when I was breeding and I know nothing much about it; I never gave it a thought. If I were still breeding, I'd be especially interested in any follow ups done on the dogs have passed as well as those that haven't. Is Passed the right word?|
by CMathis on 08 June 2012 - 17:03
|It is more like a total evaluation of hip laxicity. My understanding is the higher the DI (distraction index) is the more probable that a dog could develp HD. For more information check out this link http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?alias=research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip|
by darylehret on 08 June 2012 - 18:11
|Excuse me? I'm NOT the one who brought up show vs. working in regards to HD. My comment's related DIRECTLY to yours|
Basically all I'm saying is, WHO CARES what what you "suggest", or what you've "been told" by your showline pals. Examine the data for yourself.
by CMathis on 08 June 2012 - 19:19
In my opinion this has nothing to do with Showline vs Workingline at all. It is finding a way to breed more sound dogs.
Why is it that everything needs to turn into the one line is better than the other? Maybe if we started working together instead of bashing one another a solution could be found.
by nanu on 08 June 2012 - 19:30
I haven't been on PD in a long time and here is my favorite topic! Hip Dysplasia!
by darylehret on 08 June 2012 - 19:37
|I don't doubt the sincerity of your good intentions, but there are definite patterns of strength and weakness in the bloodlines that emerge if you actually study the data. To ignore them would be a form of "kennel blindness". I don't think we should worry so much about all getting along among ourselves, as holding together what's left of this breed. Tolerance or apathy is worse than voicing your opinion, no matter whose feathers get ruffled.|
by CMathis on 09 June 2012 - 01:30
Yes there are patterns in both lines of dogs. It is a fact that some lines seem to have more problems with HD than others. I do think what we are doing is not working to get rid of the HD in our dogs. We as a group need to do something
different. I threw the PennHipp idea out there as a possible alternative or additional evaluation. I do think there is some truth to OFA and the SV evaluations being skewed. The vets and breeders have gotten much better at prescreening the
Xrays and the really bad ones never get seen. The SV ZW number is a wonderful idea but will only work if enough Xrays are actually submitted.
by Blitzen on 09 June 2012 - 02:29
|I emailed OFA today asking if there are any year by year HD stats available for the German Shepherd and if there is any conclusive evidence that the incident of HD is related to the degree of rear angulation. I received this reply:|
On the OFA homepage chose education, breed statistics, hip dysplasia statistics and trends in hip dysplasia by breed. These time periods are based on year of birth and give trends on percent excellent and hip dysplasia.
Not to our knowledge.
G.G. Keller, D.V.M., MS
Chief of Veterinary Services
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
by darylehret on 09 June 2012 - 03:25
|Cheryl, you point out the single greatest fault I personally find with the SV's HD-Zuchtwerte (ZW Breed Value) system, and that's why I devised my own EBV system based on SV statistics. The collectible data on individual sires is far greater than that of dams, so unfortunately females are excluded from the system, having less measureable impact. One male can easily sire a hundred, if not a thousand progeny, but not so easily can individual females produce a large sample. Then, the overall score assigned is based on what has been produced, but importantly is modified by the percentage of offspring that is NOT submitted for evaluation.|
G.G. Keller has mentioned this in last year's Veterinary Journal
Blitzen, you can criticize me all you like for not adhering to the standards that you (and perhaps the majority here) might adhere to. I'm really OK with that. Just know it's not going to change my views or practice. Like Keller says, there's no evidence to support that view. I can at least unlike many breeders say, that with hundreds of clients, I have yet to have any confirmed or even suspected HD in my breeding. Not saying that will always be the case, or that I won't one day push my luck too far...
by ziegenfarm on 09 June 2012 - 05:39
i was going to comment on breeding for the "whole dog." but gustav already said it very clearly:
by Blitzen on 09 June 2012 - 12:48
|Daryl, I really don't care if you don't xray or title your dogs before you breed them. Don't keep trying to bait me so you can report me again to admin for stalking and picking on you and they delete more of my posts - OK? If you think breeding unxrayed, untitled GSD's is the right thing do to, breed away. It makes no difference to me whatsoever.|
by Blitzen on 09 June 2012 - 12:50
|Thanks for the info on Penn Hip, Cheryl.|
by darylehret on 09 June 2012 - 14:42
|Blirtzen, I've never reported anyone EVER to the moderator, why would I waste my time on you?|
by CMathis on 10 June 2012 - 16:17
I agree that we are breeding dogs and not hips. The reason I was so narrow in my comments was an attempt to stay on topic.
While we are on the subject of breeding I would like to say I think the females are the lifeblood of any breeding program. There are some wonderful males out there from both lines that produce very nice dogs. Without quality females to breed to the males cannot reach their potential to produce well. When I say that I am refering to the whole package of temperment, drive, health ,and structure. With all those things being equal.
I think the answer to HD or any genetic disorder is to keep really good records and use available testing to determine the best breeding dogs.