German Shepherd Dog > It is time to look back and see what we are doing! (55 replies)
by Gustav on 07 June 2012 - 19:07
|Unintended consequences......is the result of many unvetted ideas.|
by Koach on 07 June 2012 - 19:21
|Want to get rid of HD in the GSD?|
Do the hip x rays according to proper technique and no sooner than age 2.
Make an AD a requirement for breeding. I'd even make it longer.
Put the scaling wall (minimum 7 feet) into IPO 2 and 3. Why not the long jump also. People would have to breed more athletic dogs and less grotesque shaped and oversize specimens that carry more weight than intended.
I'm not in favor of mixing Mali blood into the GSD. In my opinion some GSD lines are already too Mali like.
by joanro on 07 June 2012 - 20:40
|Why not just create a whole new breed and exclude the gsd altogether if your getting such a high rate of hd, op? Throwing a different breed into the mix that has it's own problems isn't going to make things better for the gsd breed. By the time you get done, there won't even be a gsd breed, just a messed up mongrel. Just say'n.|
by Hundmutter on 07 June 2012 - 21:57
The bit about throwing the baby out with the bathwater has been overused to a ridiculous extent, in all the 'sections' of the GSD; yes you can make a case for a really excellent specimen (by whatever criteria) being used despite bad hips - but what happens in actuality is nearly every breeder decides to use X dog and/or bitch because they have a high score in their protection or they have outstandingly good ..... (fill in the blanks) and MAY have won prizes and titles that prove same; and as there are no guarantees about producing good hips there are also no guarantees that every pup produced will inherit the excellent conformation or working aspects of its parent(s). Like people are fond of saying, breeding is in the end a crap shoot, even for the most skilled and careful. Only once in a very long while does there come a dog which every body agrees is truly outstanding.
One thing that the records of all the Hip schemes has shown over time is that the breed mean can decrease; the problems are around: How fast ? and how extensively, especially while people continue to breed with dogs they really did not ought to be using because they know their hips aren't all that good, or that they've produced progeny that have hips that are not
good .. and that's without getting on to off-Register / puppy mill breeding.
If the situation with actual, clinincal, displasia is really getting worse rather than better, maybe there should be a moratorium on any breeding from stock that is in any way 'tainted' with HD; if for an agreed limited period people agreed
not to breed with what they regard as 'otherwise excellent' dogs (say for two years) that would meet the OPs request that we look properly at what we are doing & where we're going. Meanwhile in a breed as numerous as the GSD it would not be impossible to continue to find some equally good specimens without HD-related problems to carry on with; this might take a lot more thought and effort, and may result in a drop in puppy sales - but it IS, indeed, a question of priorities ...
by Felloffher on 07 June 2012 - 22:53
Blitzen and I are discussing dog's that may produce HD, not breeding dogs with HD.
6. stop using dogs for breeding that have produced progeny that are moderately to severely dyslastic
by Gustav on 07 June 2012 - 23:54
|Here's what complicates the situation, there is often a very strong correlation of dogs with higher incidence of the disease and some very positive temperament traits. OTOH, there is also sometimes a correlation with some dogs who produce better than the mean in hips and not as good temperament issues. The more you strengthen the hips by narrowing the genepool to these dogs, then you start to see changes in the breed in the temperament area. Likewise, often you need to improve an aspect of weakness that as the genepool becomes too narrow fron so much exclusion, the only way to get there is to introduce dogs that you know may have higher probability, but will bring balance back to what you have lost. That's why most savy breeders breed dogs and not hips. When you start breeding hips, or any singular aspect, you will bring an imbalance to the breed. Yes, hips can be improved....I saw it done in the Bio- sensor program at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, but the price was certainly not worth it, imo. And please let's not let some imbecile twist my words to say that I condone HD, or I am not vigilant about it, but you can't breed hips exclusively without unintended consequences. You have to breed the total dog and stack things in your favor as long as you don't go Too far in one direction.|
by joanro on 08 June 2012 - 00:05
|That is so logical, Gustav, you would think it needn't be said !|
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 00:29
|The thread is about HD and how to produce as few cases of HD as possible; that's it. Why bring other issues into the mix? No one is suggesting that it would ever be prudent to breed soley for good hips while ignoring all other aspects of the breed. In theory, not using dogs that have produced moderate or severe HD in their progeny would be a good way to begin to cleanse the gene pool, but would the end results justify the means? Probably not but that's really not the topic anyway, is it?|
by joanro on 08 June 2012 - 00:47
|Blitzen, if Gustav wasn't addressing the hip issue and breeding strategy regarding that, then what did you glean from his post? What " other issues" were brought into the mix? If a " theory" won't work, then why waste time on it ? instead listen to logic.|
by Gustav on 08 June 2012 - 10:24
|Huh?????? I thought I was talking about hips.........to improve hips you have to breed for hips, many people don't understand the consequences......that's not on topic??? I brought up an example of a program that did improve hips......that's not on topic??? OK, I am beginning to understand that knowledge is not really wanted, unless it fits in the box.....Gotcha! Lol|
by duke1965 on 08 June 2012 - 10:56
|mproving percentages of good hips in any breed is pretty simple(exept when genetic base is very small and all individuals are affected)|
to do so you need general knowledge of genetics common sense and honesty
most of blitzens rules will not do the job, as each individual dog has different genetics and have different "answer "in breeding , and also it is not so that you have to exclude lines from breeding , in every line you canclean up so to speak
blaming ANYTHING on linebreeding, only shows lack of basic genetic knowledge of the person saying it is so , I had in my bouviers 99% HD clear and 100% ED clear , strongly linedbred (17 times) on P litter Lampegat who turned out to be severe dysplastic themselves later on(on that time Xrays were optional)
Now in my German shepherds I also,already have litters that are 100% clear of HD and ED, and if I can do it , anybody can do it
The reason why showline GSD have higher rate of HD than workinglines also has a lot to do with angulation , as everybody knows HD is not only genetic , and everybody who finished school will know that the powers on those joints will be hundreds of times bigger with that angulation and positioning than with a workingline dog that has his pelvis more in a straight line with his hocks and the point where the feet touches the ground
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 13:17
|SL have a higher rate of HD? How do you know that? I don't think there are any statistics to either prove or disprove that statement; it's anecdotal. For that to be a factual statement, there would need to be a compilation of OFA passes and failures with pedigrees and even then it would still be an approximation as the OFA doesn't see very many bad xrays.|
What would be your "simple" suggestions for reducing the incidence of HD? I'm also curious as to where you got your "facts" that angulation influences HD. OFA thought that at one time due to the higher incidence of HD in the GSD, but they have since said it is not true.
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 13:38
We are talking about hips and how to reduce the incidence in the breed; that's it. Sorry if I stepped on toes by suggesting that we not bring other issues into the mix. I have said this more than once - no one is advocating breeding solely for "hips", it is simply a discussion about what might help to reduce HD, not how to improve the breed at the same time.
by duke1965 on 08 June 2012 - 14:03
|blitzen , these numbers do exist, they are not OFA, but german , and comparing hochzuchtlines to BSP lines , I will see if I can find them, but they show higher percentages in hochzuchtlines|
secondly, HD is a combination of genetics and enviromental influences, and I will try to give you two pictures, than you may tell me which joints have greater pressure on them, every single day the dog is growing up.
the simple solution I already wrote
general knowledge of genetics common sense and honesty
by duke1965 on 08 June 2012 - 14:08
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 14:19
Let's see those statistics. I would also suggest that many more SV breeders submit xrays to the SV than do WL breeders, so the SV results may very well be skewed. Then again, the SV only sees the better xrays. I've been told that WL's produce more cases of severe HD than SL's. How about the xrays submitted to the SV that are from dogs that are both WL and SL. Do they keep records on them as well? I suspect we will never know for sure; how could we?
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 14:37
by duke1965 on 08 June 2012 - 15:10
|I found the article , it is in dutch , and big , it also shows that from the top workingline females a much higher percentage of their offspring is Xrayed and send in than from top hochzucht females|
in general about 33% is xrayed and send in , from workinglines it is almost 39% that is send in, and in percentages the WL are coming out better
I think there is an english translation of this ,I will look
by darylehret on 08 June 2012 - 15:46
|Examining the SV's historical statistics, all but a few studs in the top 80 hip producers is a workingline dog. And there's a MUCH higher percentage of showline offspring whose hips are not submitted for certification at all. I thought the showline fanatics carried on in spite of the fact, not because they were ignorant of it.|
by Blitzen on 08 June 2012 - 16:24